lol Gas prices

[test123]

With the threat of $4-a-gallon gas once again hanging over the economy -- and over President Obama's re-election campaign -- the White House on Friday left the door open to tapping the country's oil reserve to ease prices.

"A release of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve is an option that's on the table," Deputy Press Secretary Josh Earnest told reporters.


Wait for it....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UH6hzAQdSE

So the White House wants to flood the market with Gas, even though the supply already is plenty such that prices will be artificially lower. Essentially subsidizing gas.

[Apelila]

If gas takes a huge hike before the election it doesn't matter what the cause, everyone and their mom is going to blame Obama. An asteroid could hit Iran, Obama's fault.

[Tricen]

I was under the impression that high gas prices is because of oil speculators driving it up for profit?

[Plow]

pay half the price for gas the rest of the world pays...


WHY IS GAS SO DAMN EXPENSIVE WE NEED A NEW GOVERNMENT

[Dantrag]

pay half the price for gas the rest of the world pays...


WHY IS GAS SO DAMN EXPENSIVE WE NEED A NEW GOVERNMENT

We also have no real transit system. We're not like Europe where you can take a train anywhere at a decent price.

[Tagus]

I'm cool with whatever. My boss used gas prices as an excuse why we're not getting raises this year, which just seems fucking ridiculous. If more politicians tried to buy our votes by lowering prices on shit, we might have a little room to breathe up in this mofo.

[Salodin]

How many gallons do we have hidden away to even have an effect on prices? For all cars in all states...I mean..we must have a warehouse the size of maine just filled to the top with gas to even have this last longer then a day o/_O...

[Seraph]

The whole thing is bullshit. They don't actually have to release any of the reserves, they just have to make people think they are going to, and the price of gas will magically drop. Just like how the Chevron refinery fire in CA made the prices go up well over 5% even though there is no direct reason to have a spike of that size since that refinery only handles something like 0.06% of the countries gas usage. I know it does cause legitimate supply issues in certain locations, but the price spike happening everywhere, and at such magnitude, is pretty retarded.

[falloutboy14]

How many gallons do we have hidden away to even have an effect on prices? For all cars in all states...I mean..we must have a warehouse the size of maine just filled to the top with gas to even have this last longer then a day o/_O...

Per wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Petroleum_Reserve_%28United_States%29

As of February 29, 2012, the inventory was 695.9 million barrels (110,640,000 m3). This equates to 36 days of oil at current daily US consumption levels
It's crude oil stored as opposed to gasoline, but they're definitely capable of flooding the market. Hmm, they should take advantage of these price fluxes. Sell the oil now while gas is $4 a gallon, then slowly buy up oil when it's back to $3.

[Lordender]

What a surprise, gas prices going up right as labor day approaches.

Working as intended.

[Dantrag]

Yeah, but it's been a huge bump. Normally it's something like $.25. Think it's jumped almost $.65 around here.

[Dimmauk]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/109824-Up-Your-Gas!

Gas prices always go up in time for school and labor day.

[Jaybar]

Sell the oil now while gas is $4 a gallon, then slowly buy up oil when it's back to $3.

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/7501210b559bac2ce8484c86907643aa.gif

[archibaldcrane]

http://uncrate.com/p/2009/03/tesla-model-s.jpg
soon my baby, soon

[Salodin]

http://uncrate.com/p/2009/03/tesla-model-s.jpg
soon my baby, soon

Always curious about these cars. Wouldn't the energy required to charge them negate the benefit of not polluting from the car itself? At what point do we net positive with that?

[Stromgarde]

From what I've read it depends on the makeup of the energy grid where you're going to be using it. Someplace like Germany which is moving away from even nuclear these days towards wind and other renewable then yeah it'd be a net benefit. China, who is heavily dependent on coal and sitting on huge reserves of the same, not so much.

[hey]

I listened to the video, then came back to ask wtf i just listened to. But then i saw it was posted by test, so i guess that answered my question.


From what I've read it depends on the makeup of the energy grid where you're going to be using it. Someplace like Germany which is moving away from even nuclear these days towards wind and other renewable then yeah it'd be a net benefit. China, who is heavily dependent on coal and sitting on huge reserves of the same, not so much.
Right. There's no benefit if your energy is being generated by coal. Pretty much anything else though, and it's hugely beneficial. Nuclear, wind, etc don't give off any pollution.

[Katlan]

What a surprise, gas prices going up right as labor day approaches.

Working as intended.

this happens every summer. I don't see why it's now suddenly such a big deal. In fact its cheaper this summer then it's been the last few years around this time. Gas goes up during the spring/summer and down in the fall/winter. Has a lot to do w/ people traveling

[archibaldcrane]

Pretty sure that even with 100% coal electricity you're carbon positive compared to gasoline, but here in Los Angeles, the grid is:
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/67d71552203b7e6177aee896b5ad2d24.PNG

with plans to phase out coal entirely by 2030.

Still though, you're looking at $300/year in energy costs instead of $1300 for a comparable car - and that's at current gas prices, which are certain to increase at a much higher rate than electricity prices.

[hey]

Pretty sure that even with 100% coal electricity you're carbon positive compared to gasoline,Oh, neat, i thought it was a slight loss on coal.

[Stromgarde]

Gasoline has the chief benefit of being both familiar and relatively passive. As we move towards renewable energy sources, people will find new, incredibly crazy things to complain about. On the practical side, we have farmers in America complaining about noise pollution the wind turbines generate causing sleeplessness and other related problems. On the other end of the spectrum in Germany people are complaining about potential lung problems and even cancer (http://www.npr.org/2012/08/14/158760520/germans-confront-the-costs-of-a-nuclear-free-future) arising from new power line construction.

[Headspace]

Pretty sure that even with 100% coal electricity you're carbon positive compared to gasoline, but here in Los Angeles, the grid is:
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/67d71552203b7e6177aee896b5ad2d24.PNG

with plans to phase out coal entirely by 2030.

Still though, you're looking at $300/year in energy costs instead of $1300 for a comparable car - and that's at current gas prices, which are certain to increase at a much higher rate than electricity prices.

Except when Electricity becomes a popular fuel source for cars. Then it'll cost more.

Do you know why?

Because fuck you, that's why.

[archibaldcrane]

MOTHERFUCKER

just lost my post

I just did a shitload of calculations on carbon production per kwh and carbon per mile for gasoline

and the forum ate it

fuck me sideways

Anyway, what I figured out is that in California, you're looking at the average gas-powered car producing 5.4X the amount of CO2 than the equivalent distance driven in a Model S. The average gas-powered vehicle in America gets a combined 21 mpg. So even if you're driving a hybrid getting 42 mpg, you're still producing 2.7X the amount of carbon than in a Model S in California.

In the worst state in the union for carbon production from electricity, North Dakota, I figured out that a Model S is equivalent to a gasoline powered car that gets 30.5 mpg for carbon emissions. In ND, a new Corolla or Prius or something would be carbon-positive compared to the Model S.

[archibaldcrane]

Except when Electricity becomes a popular fuel source for cars. Then it'll cost more.

Do you know why?

Because fuck you, that's why.
Nah, utilities have a huge load during the day, and a very low load at night for electricity, and night is when people are plugging their cars in. There's a huge bandwith available for production of electricity during off-peak hours. Plus, for electric vehicle drivers, not only does my utility pay for a charger installation in my garage (up to $2000 rebate), they also offer a special electricity rate for off-peak charging just for electric vehicles.

[archibaldcrane]

Also, I did the math on a roughly comparably equipped BMW 328i vs. the Tesla S, if you drive 100,000 miles in the vehicle. This does not count maintenance, in which (if the Model S is solidly built) the Model S should have a significant advantage (no spark plugs, no radiator, no fuel pump, no timing belt, no oil changes, etc. etc.).

----------------
TESLA MODEL S:
9.5 kwh for 25 miles
38,000 kwh for 100,000 miles

LADWP rates:

8.3c/kwh 4 months a year
10.2c/kwh 8 months a year
=
9.56c/kwh average


$57,400 - Model S Base Price

-7500 federal tax credit
-2500 State of CA tax credit

+3750 tech package
+2700 for Twin Chargers+wall connector
+1500 for glass roof
-1200 LADWP rebate for wall connector


$55650 - cost to purchase with the accessories I desire

$3,632.80 in electricity to travel 100,000 miles in the Tesla Model S


$59,282 to travel 100,000 miles in a Model S.




BMW 328i
.96 gallons per 25 miles
3840 gallons for 100,000 miles
Premium gasoline @ 3.85/gallon
$14,784 for 328i automatic to go 100,000 miles at current gas prices


328i base price: $36,500
+1050 moonroof
+2150 navigation
+895 destination and handling


$40,595 total equipped


plus $14,784


$55,379 to travel 100,000 miles in a BMW 328i.

If gas prices increase to an average of 4.85/gallon premium over the next 8.5 years (to drive 100k miles at 12k a year) - which I consider extremely likely, considering that there are gas stations in LA right now that are more than 4.85/gallon premium, and electricity rates stay the same (they won't but yeah), the BMW 328i would cost exactly the same as the Model S to drive 100k miles (ignoring maintenance costs, of which the 328i would very likely be higher).
-----------------

[hey]

Except when Electricity becomes a popular fuel source for cars. Then it'll cost more.

Do you know why?

Because fuck you, that's why.
Actually it would go up, but not because fuck you. It'd go up because higher demand = higher prices. The increase would be tiny though, and hardly worth considering.

[Jaybar]

^ I assume you mean the increase in demand will be tiny? If so, then I conquer. It will be like a drop in the pond as far as demand goes.

[Melena]

The whole thing is bullshit. They don't actually have to release any of the reserves, they just have to make people think they are going to, and the price of gas will magically drop. Just like how the Chevron refinery fire in CA made the prices go up well over 5% even though there is no direct reason to have a spike of that size since that refinery only handles something like 0.06% of the countries gas usage. I know it does cause legitimate supply issues in certain locations, but the price spike happening everywhere, and at such magnitude, is pretty retarded.

Seraph, the reason it had such a spike in california is California has some of the strictest air quality controls for gasoline in the nation. It's not like we can hit up a refinery in texas and get the same blended gasoline mandated by our stupid laws. That's why we spiked 20 cents in less than a week.

[Lordender]

this happens every summer. I don't see why it's now suddenly such a big deal. In fact its cheaper this summer then it's been the last few years around this time. Gas goes up during the spring/summer and down in the fall/winter. Has a lot to do w/ people traveling

Yep, every year it is the same story, you'll see gas starting to rise right before 4th of july then it'll fall down a little. A few weeks before labor day, it starts to mysteriously rise along with back to school. Imagine that, gas was cheaper this summer than the past few years because this year just happens to be election year :)

[archibaldcrane]

And that blended gasoline is part of the reason that smog in downtown Los Angeles (basically where I live) is way, WAY less than it was in the 70's.

[Seraph]

Seraph, the reason it had such a spike in california is California has some of the strictest air quality controls for gasoline in the nation. It's not like we can hit up a refinery in texas and get the same blended gasoline mandated by our stupid laws. That's why we spiked 20 cents in less than a week.
The 5%+ price spike wasn't just in CA.

[Drex]

Has a lot to do w/ people traveling

Has more to do with speculators expecting people to be traveling. It has little correlation to actual travel statistics.

[Dantrag]

Problem is that if you look from a environmental perspective aren't the battery in these things going to negate any kind of benefit due to how we get the materials and what they're made out of?

[Restrat]

Only if the cars are used for less than 10-13 years depending on the model

[Psion]

Not to mention scientists are working on new batteries that aren't so costly or bad for the environment as well, thanks to rising demand.

[archibaldcrane]

Not so bad. Producing electricity for recharging the battery has a much larger environmental impact than the production of the battery.

http://www.gizmag.com/empa-study-environmental-impact-electric-car/16181/

[Salodin]

Only if the cars are used for less than 10-13 years depending on the model

I know these aren't normal batteries, but I have never heard of any kind of battery lasting a decade lol

[archibaldcrane]

I know these aren't normal batteries, but I have never heard of any kind of battery lasting a decade lolThe 85kwh Tesla Model S batteries come with a 12-year warranty, so...

Even the base 40 kwh ones come with an 8-year warranty.

[archibaldcrane]

Hell, there's still plenty of 1997 Prius batteries that are still performing just fine.

[hey]

I know these aren't normal batteries, but I have never heard of any kind of battery lasting a decade lol
Surely that can't be true.

[Ashmada]

We also have no real transit system. We're not like Europe where you can take a train anywhere at a decent price.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0


And lolTesla. Toys for rich morons, the fad will pass.

[archibaldcrane]

You think electric cars are a passing fad?

Lol.

[Salodin]

Hell, there's still plenty of 1997 Prius batteries that are still performing just fine.

Prius are hybrids though aren't they?

And would a battery even be covered under warranty? I know my oil changes aren't covered when I get a new car, and I need those to keep the car running. How much is it to replace a battery like that?

[hey]

And would a battery even be covered under warranty? I know my oil changes aren't covered when I get a new car, and I need those to keep the car running. How much is it to replace a battery like that?
You're comparing a battery to an oil change?

The oil isn't even part of the car.

[Ashmada]

You think electric cars are a passing fad?

Lol.

You think they're "the future"?

Lol.

[Correction]

You think they're "the future"?

Lol.

At some point, both gasoline and coal will run out. What do you suppose will power our vehicles then?

[AidenCarby]

At some point, both gasoline and coal will run out. What do you suppose will power our vehicles then?

Tears

[Ashmada]

No, no, carry on, don't want to ruin your dreams of living in 1842.

[Correction]

No, no, carry on, don't want to ruin your dreams of living in 1842.

You talk as if you have an answer to my question, but you aren't answering it.

[Roranora]

i'll be working on this guys dun worry. gonna tackle all this.. fuel sustainability worry with perpetual infrastructure improvements throughout

not sure when exactly

[Ashmada]

You talk as if you have an answer to my question, but you aren't answering it.
Although your superior attitude and loaded question don't deserve answer, I'll indulge: I don't know and neither do you.
Maybe new technologies will arise, maybe we'll find a more efficient way to produce hydrogen, maybe we'll drill deeper for oil but one thing is undeniable: the battery-powered electric "car" isn't the answer; a technology that most people can't afford and that grants reduced functionality (anything that takes more than "a few minutes" to charge up is reduced functionality) isn't progress.

But ecologists, like all religious people, can't accept "I don't know and neither do you" as an answer.

[AidenCarby]

There are engines that can run on salt water, but good fucking luck on getting them unbanned :)

[Correction]

Maybe new technologies will arise, maybe we'll find a more efficient way to produce hydrogen, maybe we'll drill deeper for oil but one thing is undeniable: the battery-powered electric "car" isn't the answer; a technology that most people can't afford and that grants reduced functionality (anything that takes more than "a few minutes" to charge up is reduced functionality) isn't progress.

On what basis do you assert that tech like compressed/liquid hydrogen fuels can make enough progress to become a viable power source for vehicles but not rechargeable batteries?

[Ashmada]

I don't. Thanks for missing the point.

Funny. You talk as if you had an answer, but you're not answering:

a technology that most people can't afford and that grants reduced functionality (anything that takes more than "a few minutes" to charge up is reduced functionality) isn't progress.

[Jaybar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0



Wait, you actually believe America's mass transit system is on par with Europe?

[Correction]

I don't. Thanks for missing the point.

Funny. You talk as if you had an answer, but you're not answering:

I never made the claim that current rechargeable battery tech was progress from the current generation of fossil fuel engines.

The context is that when fossil fuels run out, what will replace them? You pretended enough knowledge about battery tech limitations to post futurama videos and post 'lol@you' here and there but I am really curious about what knowledge you have. So far your only answer was "I don't know" and that's not good enough to say 'batteries won't work in a future where fossil fuels are gone.' You're trying too hard here to win some tit-for-tat postwar and aren't posting actual information.

[test123]

New technologies may come that will in several orders of magnitude increase battery capabilities.



An energy-storage membrane had been developed that was more cost-effective at storing energy than either rechargeable batteries or supercapacitors.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/semiconductors/nanotechnology/can-a-polymer-membrane-be-the-next-big-thing-in-battery-technology

Also, google: "memristor"

[archibaldcrane]

I think by 2020 at least 30% of all new cars sold will be able to be "plugged in" in some way to recharge batteries that at least partially drive the car.

So yeah, I think they are the immediate future.

Point is, if by 2020 you're getting cars with 500 mile ranges (merely double the longest range Tesla Model S in 2012), having to take 2 hours to recharge in your own garage isn't going to be a problem, at all, for the vast vast majority of users. The only problem you're running into at that point is serious road trips, and that's only if "Supercharger" technology to charge in under an hour (the current Tesla can use a supercharger station to take the car from 30% to 80% in 30 minutes) doesn't improve at all in the next 8 years. (hint: it will)

[archibaldcrane]

The biggest problem for electrics, in my opinion, is people who live in apartments and don't have garages to park in. And that's not an insignificant problem. But seriously, if I get a Tesla Model S (and I'm seriously considering it), and I need to take a road trip to SF or Vegas or something for some reason, worst case scenario is I swap cars with my wife for a weekend, if she's not coming with. If the total cost of ownership is cheaper than a low-end BMW, why not?

[Correction]

The biggest problem for electrics, in my opinion, is people who live in apartments and don't have garages to park in. And that's not an insignificant problem.

The biggest problem for electrics is how it will apply to commercial shipping, which is where any shortage of energy is felt most acutely. I figure nuclear can take over for diesel on container ships, but what about trucks?

[hey]

The biggest problem for electrics is how it will apply to commercial shipping, which is where any shortage of energy is felt most acutely. I figure nuclear can take over for diesel on container ships, but what about trucks?
I don't see why trucks can't run on electric. In fact, it's probably even better suited to it than for most people's general use cars. Trucks are big, and can keep multiple much larger batteries, and it's perfectly feasible to just have a bunch of batteries around to swap between trucks, so it's not a problem if your trucks are being driven 23+ hours per day.

[archibaldcrane]

Friend of mine works for a Jatropha biofuel farm company, could be promising as they domesticate and genetically engineer it for greater yields. The oil produced is "drop-in" ready as jetfuel (they can make biodiesel with it too, or any number of other carbon-chain liquid fuels) and Lufthansa has already flown test flights on 100% Jatropha fuel, without engine modifications.

But yeah, I'm just talking about passenger vehicles. Semi trucks and cargo ships are their own challenge...although if electrics can take some of the demand off oil, it will help somewhat.

[BaneTheBrawler]

The range problem with electric cars is so simple to solve I don't understand why I've never seen anything like it being mentioned. What happens when the batteries die in your remote? Do you plug it in and wait 20 minutes to change the channel, or do you put new batteries in? You change those suckers. Same concept. Adopt an industry standard to ensure compatibility, then distribute charging stations at the pre-existing infrastructure points (gas stations). Batteries low? Stop at a gas station, swap it out for a fully charged one, leaving the empty one there to charge. Properly designed it could be done in less than 5 minutes.

Edit: and as adoption rates increase, it just gets easier.

[archibaldcrane]

Easier to just get higher range cars so you would want to swap extremely rarely. The tesla battery is the entire floor of the car, like 4'x6'x4". Full electric cars have huge batteries. Swapping isn't going to be the answer, not needing to will be.

[Ashmada]

Wait, you actually believe America's mass transit system is on par with Europe?

No. I've got little idea how the US' mass transit system is. The laughable part is that he thinks our trains are reliable and that cheap trains somehow make up for half-price gas.
I'd fucking rip the whole country's railways by hand if it meant half-price gas. I'd kill 30 puppies for half-price gas (and 30 more for fun).


I think by 2020 at least 30% of all new cars sold will be able to be "plugged in" in some way to recharge batteries that at least partially drive the car.
And what makes you think that? None of us can predict the future, that's just wishful thinking. Can 30% of all car-owners even afford electric cars or hybrids?


Point is, if by 2020 you're getting cars with 500 mile ranges (merely double the longest range Tesla Model S in 2012), having to take 2 hours to recharge in your own garage isn't going to be a problem, at all, for the vast vast majority of users. The only problem you're running into at that point is serious road trips, and that's only if "Supercharger" technology to charge in under an hour (the current Tesla can use a supercharger station to take the car from 30% to 80% in 30 minutes) doesn't improve at all in the next 8 years. (hint: it will)
The technology will evolve, yes. No one doubts that.
But will it evolve enough? Will it evolve quickly enough? Won't fuel-efficiency evolve sufficiently to grant us a respite to look for a better solution?
It doesn't matter if it's 8 hours or 1 hour, it's still more than "a couple of minutes"; and that comes with inconvenients we thought were a thing of the past; vacations by car become a lot less plausible, for instance, so the poor end up paying more for their vacations because they have to fly there. More importantly, emergencies: you need to go the hospital in the middle of the night for X reason... but the car is in the middle of its charging cycle, you can't. Examples are numerous because we've come to expect travel to be that efficient, so any loss in said efficiency can't be accepted by society at large.

That's what really rubs me the wrong way with ecologists: they expect everyone to adapt around their "green" technology, rather than technology serving the needs of the people, the people have to bend around it.
Can we adapt to recharge time expressed in hours? Yes. Should we need to? No.

And the issue of price remains. For the Panda driver, that Tesla is way out of reach. For most people, a car is 8k-15k €, not 75k.


The context is that when fossil fuels run out, what will replace them? You pretended enough knowledge about battery tech limitations to post futurama videos and post 'lol@you' here and there but I am really curious about what knowledge you have. So far your only answer was "I don't know" and that's not good enough to say 'batteries won't work in a future where fossil fuels are gone.' You're trying too hard here to win some tit-for-tat postwar and aren't posting actual information.

Why do I engage trolls? You've distorted enough things in 3 lines that it'd be quite impossible to rectify them all. I'll just leave it at: what has been said isn't at all similar to whatever you think has been said and your arrogance is really ill-inspired.

[Jaybar]

No. I've got little idea how the US' mass transit system is. The laughable part is that he thinks our trains are reliable and that cheap trains somehow make up for half-price gas.
I'd fucking rip the whole country's railways by hand if it meant half-price gas. I'd kill 30 puppies for half-price gas (and 30 more for fun).

My experience with the various rail systems in Europe has always been positive, but I never used them for work related purposes. If you are talking about long distance regional trains then I understand your quarrel, but the inter-city transit systems I've used worked really well, especially Paris. In the States you are lucky to find a good transit system outside of major cities. Here in Chicago you have the Metra Rail for your regional stops (which is few and far between for many neighborhoods) and the El for the inter-city/neighborhood stops, which is as close to any Euro transit system I've seen (I think most major US cities are similar, but I can't account for West Coast cities).

The real problem is transit within large cities that aren't metropolises - places that would benefit greatly from smaller light rail systems but instead would rather their streets be clogged with cars. This is where the US pales in comparison to many European cities of equal size.

[hey]

I looked into getting somewhere by train a while back for a potential job. By car it was 1 hour away. By train, 5 hours, including a 3 mile walk.

[Jaybar]

The curse of living in the 'burbs.

[Ashmada]

My experience with the various rail systems in Europe has always been positive, but I never used them for work related purposes. If you are talking about long distance regional trains then I understand your quarrel, but the inter-city transit systems I've used worked really well, especially Paris. In the States you are lucky to find a good transit system outside of major cities. Here in Chicago you have the Metra Rail for your regional stops (which is few and far between for many neighborhoods) and the El for the inter-city/neighborhood stops, which is as close to any Euro transit system I've seen (I think most major US cities are similar, but I can't account for West Coast cities).

Yeah, but your experience is big cities like Paris.
If varies by countries, but:
- In most rural/suburbian areas, train stations closed a long time ago and buses are scarce.
- Strikes are absurdly common. Especially in France, you were extremly lucky not to run into one.

Example, my own case: if I want to commute by mass transit, I have to:
- Walk 15km to the nearest city. That'd take me ~3 hours.
- Take the train, ~1 hour including some waiting at the station.
- Walk some 3km. ~30 min.
Total: 4h30.

Or I can use the car, 50 minutes commute, 1hr15 with heavy traffic. So yeah, gimme that half-price gas.

[Jaybar]

Honestly it's a double-edged sword - you can lay the blame on the car for the lack of decent mass-transit, and the car then becomes the only solution for travel whereby further decreasing demand for mass-transit.

Of course, the car has made it possible for people to move away from the city which only made it worse for commuters - but I only know the history of the US as far as that exodus is concerned. Smaller inter-mixed cities like Basel work exceptionally well, but it indeed is harder for people to commute if they don't live within the transit range.

[Correction]

the poor end up paying more for their vacations because they have to fly there.

Just emphasizing this concentrated fucking stupidity the next time you want to call me a troll.

[archibaldcrane]

I just love the "how do you know prices will be cheaper and ranges longer in 8 years" argument. I mean shit, they already have an electric mitsubishi for under 22k after rebates for sale right now in 2012.

[Ashmada]

Just emphasizing this concentrated fucking stupidity the next time you want to call me a troll.

Spews 4 strawmen in a single sentence, calls others stupid. Stop trollan'.

Seriously, that's all you ever do, Correction. Always "this sentence is stupid (because I say so)", "lol" and "justify this", but you never ever produce any arguments of your own. When you're not twisting someone's words, that is.


Archi: the MiEV? k. It's 35k here, but even at 22k, that's still out of reach for many. LIke I said many can afford 8k-15k, no more. And the MiEV is ludicrously small; compared to other vehicules of its class it's still 2x-3x the price.

[bluefan]

/humps 55-60mpg motorcycle

[archibaldcrane]

Archi: the MiEV? k. It's 35k here, but even at 22k, that's still out of reach for many. LIke I said many can afford 8k-15k, no more. And the MiEV is ludicrously small; compared to other vehicules of its class it's still 2x-3x the price.
You realize I said "new car purchases" in 2020 in my 30% prediction right? At 22k, combined with cost of ownership, the MiEV is one of the cheapest cars in America - likely comparable with a base model Nissan Versa. By 2020 (8 years is a long fucking time) it's going to be a no-brainer that if you are talking about total cost, electrics are going to completely crush gasoline vehicles. The price of the battery (which is rapidly decreasing) is more than half the total cost of a Model S right now. There are so many components that you don't even have to worry about in an electric vs. an internal combustion vehicle. Electrics are cheaper to make in virtually every way, except for the battery. Technology is evolving quickly, it's simply a matter of time. And considering the cost of gasoline in Europe, my god, going 100k miles in a car in Europe has to cost at least 20k in fuel, probably more like 30k. Comparing that to 3k in electricity, Europe needs electrics more than even America does.

[Coren]

And what makes you think that? None of us can predict the future, that's just wishful thinking. Can 30% of all car-owners even afford electric cars or hybrids?

Your repeated assertions that "none of us can predict the future" are asinine. While accurately predicting exact details is problematic, plenty of very smart people can make very educated projections. This includes about battery capacity, their weight, etc. And for things like consumable fuels, we know pretty accurately how fast we are running out of coal and oil, and that those will be nearly gone within decades. We also know that renewable energy is only going to get cheaper as advances are made. So as we make the transition to whatever the "next" fuel is, electric vehicles (along with biofuel, natural gas, and potentially hydrogen-powered) will become not only mainstream, but about the only option we have.

[archibaldcrane]

Seriously, 1.6 EUR per litre (as it is around in many European Countries) is $7.45/US Gallon. To drive 100k miles, hell even in a 50 mpg Prius, you're paying $14,900 in fuel. In a 30 mpg car, you're paying $24,800 in fuel - and that's at CURRENT prices.

In a "totally unaffordable" Model S, the same distance costs you less than $3700 in fuel - even less in an i-MiEV. Over $20,000 less than a 30 mpg gas car over 100k miles.

What country are you in Ashmada? I'm itching to prove to you that there's an electric car in your country that is cheaper than any gas vehicle.

[dejet]

im still loling at someone thinking they can use this power to move 10+ ton trucks. lulz they pull less then 1 mil to the gallon at times, you think a plug in will last?

And lets not even think about the size of the batteries. holly hell. LOL we are a long ways off from anything that is Industrial can be changed at all.

Even Obama had to face that fact lol

[Coren]

im still loling at someone thinking they can use this power to move 10+ ton trucks. lulz they pull less then 1 mil to the gallon at times, you think a plug in will last?

And lets not even think about the size of the batteries. holly hell. LOL we are a long ways off from anything that is Industrial can be changed at all.

Even Obama had to face that fact lol

My state allows 120k lb trucks, or 60 tons. And you are correct, batteries won't cut it without some MAJOR advances. But there are plenty of other options such as hydrogen or natural gas that burn cleaner than diesel.

And I have no idea what this has to do with Obama... ?

[dejet]

When he made US auto lines have an average of nearly 55 miles to the gallon by 2025. Trucks that run diesel only have to get to around 10~15(and this is for their line) thus trucks wont have any effect all that much.

lol that line was not to be the focus, just an added jab at ev tech right now. If they can get me from one side of the US to the other side in 20~30min charge someday I would be all for it. That is way far off , I myself have my money on hydrogen powered cars. the swis still backing that?

[RKenshin]

It doesn't matter if it's 8 hours or 1 hour, it's still more than "a couple of minutes"
I don't understand your logic here, short of being purposefully obtuse or simply trolling people.

You obviously are going to have completely different refueling habits with an electric car, as opposed to a gas car. You're comparing the two while keeping that the same, which is just plain wrong.

This would be like me arguing that gas cars are inconvenient because it means that I would have to go to a gas station every day of the week to fill-up before the day ends, even though I only drive 50m/day. Oh wait, no, that's not how it works... with a gas car, you refill whenever you're close to empty; unlike an electric where you refill every night. Get it?

With an electric car the expected practice is fill up every night. In fact, recent car and battery designs encourage and work best when you're refilling at any/every opportunity (they don't work like old cell phones where you have to use the battery to empty).

That in mind, how is your point at all a realistic, major concern?

Short of obscure exceptions, the overwhelming majority of people would have their needs met perfectly for 99% of their driving by simply having a 200m driving range every day.... And then allowing it to recharge overnight. Do you not believe that to be true?

[hey]

Short of obscure exceptions, the overwhelming majority of people would have their needs met perfectly for 99% of their driving by simply having a 200m driving range every day.... And then allowing it to recharge overnight. Do you not believe that to be true?
It's even better than that though. You're not getting 200m per day, you're getting 200m on a full battery. Which can easily allow you to drive way more than that, if you aren't driving constantly. You drove 150 miles to/from work, then need to drive another 75 more a few hours later? No problem, just plug your car in when you get home, and it'll have charged plenty to get you where you need to go.

[dejet]

I have a question about this tech. If im stuck onto he LA highway fin rush hour(like millions of others would be) how does that count to my EV miles?

or a snowstorm that snow storm that hits NY once a year at least that makes my 15 mile drive take fing 4 hours...

and you no very well your not getting 200 miles. thats if you dont hit a single stop at all or you dont hit a bump this is a flat road in perfect conditions.

[Cantih]

If you combined it with rentals, or maybe even the self driving car stuff, forget worrying about keeping it charged (or even owning/parking the damn thing).
Pony Express stations all over, just call up/swap cars whenever needed.

[RKenshin]

im still loling at someone thinking they can use this power to move 10+ ton trucks. lulz they pull less then 1 mil to the gallon at times, you think a plug in will last?

And lets not even think about the size of the batteries. holly hell. LOL we are a long ways off from anything that is Industrial can be changed at all.

Even Obama had to face that fact lol
The national average MPG for 18-wheelers is actually about 5 MPG, if it matters. And hybrid trucks are actually very much feasible (trucks carry a ton of kinetic energy)... although I don't disagree that the idea of a full-electric truck at current technology is unrealistic.

[Coren]

When he made US auto lines have an average of nearly 55 miles to the gallon by 2025. Trucks that run diesel only have to get to around 10~15(and this is for their line) thus trucks wont have any effect all that much.

lol that line was not to be the focus, just an added jab at ev tech right now. If they can get me from one side of the US to the other side in 20~30min charge someday I would be all for it. That is way far off , I myself have my money on hydrogen powered cars. the swis still backing that?

Current trucks are happy to get 7.5 miles per gallon. Increasing to just 10 is a 33% increase.

I looked up some quick statistics:
There are roughly 240 million cars in the US
There are roughly 2.5 to 3.5 million semi-trucks in the US
The average trucker goes 120k to 150k miles in a year
The average car goes 13k miles in a year

Using these rough figures, you can see that trucks drive about the same number of miles. So, if you increase truck mileage by 33% to 100% (going from 7.5 to 10 or 15), that's a HUGE fuel savings. I'd say that "trucks won't have any effect" is a bit inaccurate.

[Coren]

I have a question about this tech. If im stuck onto he LA highway fin rush hour(like millions of others would be) how does that count to my EV miles?

or a snowstorm that snow storm that hits NY once a year at least that makes my 15 mile drive take fing 4 hours...

and you no very well your not getting 200 miles. thats if you dont hit a single stop at all or you dont hit a bump this is a flat road in perfect conditions.

Unlike gas cars that idle, electric don't expend energy just sitting. Yes you're using battery power to listen to radio and use AC, but it's not like you're burning your MPG just sitting there.

[Cantih]

The national average MPG for 18-wheelers is actually about 5 MPG, if it matters. And hybrid trucks are actually very much feasible (trucks carry a ton of kinetic energy)... although I don't disagree that the idea of a full-electric truck at current technology is unrealistic.

If efficiency goes up, would lining the cargo part of the truck with solar cells do much?

[dejet]

Current trucks are happy to get 7.5 miles per gallon. Increasing to just 10 is a 33% increase.

I looked up some quick statistics:
There are roughly 240 million cars in the US
There are roughly 2.5 to 3.5 million semi-trucks in the US
The average trucker goes 120k to 150k miles in a year
The average car goes 13k miles in a year

Using these rough figures, you can see that trucks drive about the same number of miles. So, if you increase truck mileage by 33% to 100% (going from 7.5 to 10 or 15), that's a HUGE fuel savings. I'd say that "trucks won't have any effect" is a bit inaccurate.

The worry I have is this means trucks have to be taken off the road. You do not just throw a truck out when its trany goes you fix it.

Thanks for finding that. But its the Average, so used trucks that are on the road wont be effected by this. and that is key, 33% is something I feel mac and such producers can on new trucks; This wont really impact much

This however could lead to people sticking with old trucks even longer then they do now. Only time will tell; I still think the effect will be very small.

[RKenshin]

It's even better than that though. You're not getting 200m per day, you're getting 200m on a full battery. Which can easily allow you to drive way more than that, if you aren't driving constantly. You drove 150 miles to/from work, then need to drive another 75 more a few hours later? No problem, just plug your car in when you get home, and it'll have charged plenty to get you where you need to go.
Oh of course, I'm just trying to keep the idea here as simple as possible.

No doubt that it would be incredibly easy to simply plug your car in whenever you got home, if you truly had to drive further later in the day (or whatever). Not entirely unrealistic that the future couldn't have plug-in outlets/stations at stores/restaurants/work places or garages, etc either. But I'd rather not bring anymore unknowns/assumptions to the discussion.

I have a question about this tech. If im stuck onto he LA highway fin rush hour(like millions of others would be) how does that count to my EV miles?

or a snowstorm that snow storm that hits NY once a year at least that makes my 15 mile drive take fing 4 hours...

and you no very well your not getting 200 miles. thats if you dont hit a single stop at all or you dont hit a bump this is a flat road in perfect conditions.
I'm not really sure what your point is here.

Regardless of the answers to your questions, there are 200 million licensed drivers in the United States and most of them don't spend all day in traffic/snow. The nationwide average commute time is 24 minutes.

No one is saying an electric car would work for every person in America, again.

As far as your questions, I have no idea... but I do know that most electric cars convert the kinetic energy from breaking to help recharge the battery while driving.

[dejet]

this is two years old but still is a good read.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1050838_does-the-2011-nissan-leaf-deliver-its-100-miles-of-all-electric-range/page-2

they do like the car the ones who test drive it but this line is what is key. NY/FL/CAL all fall into this and would mean that the leaf would fail badly. 90% of America can not get use by today's EV tech. And we need double and I said it was a snow strom, so the heat very likely would be blasting with the speakers playing ~_~;

2011 Nissan Leaf Our previous tests have shown that anything from 85 miles to 97 miles is more than normal for a 2011 Nissan Leaf. PluginCar’s Nick Chambers even managed an astonishing 116 miles out his test-drive in a Nissan Leaf.
Drive harshly and make use of every conceivable electrical device in the car and the range will be much less. But unless you live in locations of extreme cold or heat, we’re confident that with a little practice your 2011 Nissan Leaf will show the kind of ranges we’ve experienced thus far.
edit:
im heading to sleep if you want to send me a PM by all means im not attacking it fully. I just feel that the rush to this is not a very good idea. if we can make some decent leaps it could very well be the next tech that powers most of our cars in 20~30 years.

[RKenshin]

I'm confused, 90% of Americans cannot get by with today's EV tech because the driving range is about 20% lower in practice? Is that the case you're making?

I truly can't see how 90% of Americans would regularly need anymore than a 50-60 mile driving range, much less the potential '80' (leaf, based on above assumption) to '160' (model S, based on above assumption). I mean, sure, higher is better of course and the idea of cutting it close is certainly a major downfall of entertaining an EV car... but realistically, even I don't think I could run out of juice in a Leaf. And this is living in the North-East doing a total of 52-miles/1.4hrs of commuting every day. Which is far above the national average.

I get your concerns of course, and heck I'm not much of a green/environmentalist type and likely will hold out on entertaining the idea of an EV until technology improves a bit more (though, the Model S is sexy... just may be a bit too high-priced for me even considering gas costs). But I just think, in all fairness, some of the disadvantages of EV are being a bit over-exaggerated.

[dejet]

last post lol sorry. Your average drive might be 24min(its 29 from where I looked but still you would be right). Yes I can side with you. For daily driving EV can be fine. However take a trip ANYWHERE and you wont get very far. I went and played a game in Cooperstown doubleday field Saturday. Thats 160 miles from my house. If I went in a Model S in the summer I most likely could of made it there maybe lol. This is normal I do this once a month. I bet most people can think of at least one day every few months where even a perfect 200 miles would fail them. And that alone means you need a gas car for that trip(a 30,000 car you cant use).

Any limit is a bad thing. the hotel I stayed at did have a charge station (that some dick gas car was parked in) but that was in Albany another 50 miles or so took me about an hour and a half to drive there. around 500 miles in a day and I very well could side with you and say "Yes EV is what we need to do" that would cover most American needs for everything not just their daily grind job.

Hay that's what everyone wants a 30,000 toy to make it cheaper and better for the world as you make money! Oh wait it would of taken you around 5+ years to save any money(anyone have the real numbers on how long it takes a EV car to pay off itself vs say a 17,000 car that gets 31Mpg? ).

[Coren]

You guys are all focusing on the Model S. Tesla is already projecting to have their new model (some suspect they'll call it the model T) out by 2015. It's supposed to be in the $30k price range, and have a better range than the current Model S. It is not just a "guess" that batteries will improve drastically in the future. As they do, and as more of the fast charging stations are added, electric cars will be much more common.

[archibaldcrane]

Hay that's what everyone wants a 30,000 toy to make it cheaper and better for the world as you make money! Oh wait it would of taken you around 5+ years to save any money(anyone have the real numbers on how long it takes a EV car to pay off itself vs say a 17,000 car that gets 31Mpg? ).
Ok, let's use a Leaf, and in California. K?

Base model Nissan Leaf: $35,200
-7500 federal tax rebate
-2500 state tax rebate

$25,200

Driving 100k miles in a Leaf:
24 kwh per charge
.12/kwh national average (it's actually lower in most CA municipalities because of special car charging rates, but I'll use the 12 cents)
$2.88 per charge
EPA estimated 99 miles per charge

To go 100k miles:
1010 charges
$2831 in electricity
+25200 purchase price
=$28031 purchace price+fuel to go 100k miles in a Nissan Leaf

31 mpg generic car
Average gasoline in CA is $4.10 for regular gasoline
3225 gallons to go 100k miles
$13222 in gasoline
+17,000 purchase price
=30222 purchase price+fuel to go 100k miles in generic 31mpg 17k gas car

Break even is probably around 70-80k miles, between these two. That's of course ignoring the 20 oil changes or more that the 17k gas car will require.

[archibaldcrane]

I think you just have to compare apples to apples. Compare the Model S to luxury cars, compare the Leaf to mid-range cars (like an Altima or something), compare the i-MiEV to bargain basement cars.

[Dantrag]

Ok, let's use a Leaf, and in California. K?

Base model Nissan Leaf: $35,200
-7500 federal tax rebate
-2500 state tax rebate

$25,200

Driving 100k miles in a Leaf:
24 kwh per charge
.12/kwh national average (it's actually lower in most CA municipalities because of special car charging rates, but I'll use the 12 cents)
$2.88 per charge
EPA estimated 99 miles per charge

To go 100k miles:
1010 charges
$2831 in electricity
+25200 purchase price
=$28031 purchace price+fuel to go 100k miles in a Nissan Leaf

31 mpg generic car
Average gasoline in CA is $4.10 for regular gasoline
3225 gallons to go 100k miles
$13222 in gasoline
+17,000 purchase price
=30222 purchase price+fuel to go 100k miles in generic 31mpg 17k gas car

Break even is probably around 70-80k miles, between these two. That's of course ignoring the 20 oil changes or more that the 17k gas car will require.

How much for the rental cars when you take trips and their gas?

[archibaldcrane]

That's what your wife's car is for.

[Plow]

it's too bad there's not like some kind of a cross between the 2 (we could call it a hybrid!) that gets absolutely absurd highway mileage and covers all the complaints people can come up with until we get batteries effective enough not to need it

[Dantrag]

That's what your wife's car is for.

Then we have no fun vehicle :(

[archibaldcrane]

it's too bad there's not like some kind of a cross between the 2 (we could call it a hybrid!) that gets absolutely absurd highway mileage and covers all the complaints people can come up with until we get batteries effective enough not to need it
You mean like the Chevy Volt? 35-mile all electric range, gas generator on top of that.

[Dantrag]

Does the volt recharge the battery as it goes?

[Plow]

You mean like the Chevy Volt? 35-mile all electric range, gas generator on top of that.

I actually can't decide what I think about the volt.

Instead of a true hybrid (i.e. driving with the engine as necessary, driving with the battery when possible), it just has a straight up generator to make more electricity to drive it with.

Seems like a shit idea to me, but somehow they managed to make it more efficient than any other hybrid, so I guess it's working.

I don't get why not just have the engine actually drive when necessary, though. I guess it's just so that you can use it as a full electric if you don't need much range, but it seems like the could have gotten even more out of it by letting the engine take over completely when necessary.

[Plow]

Does the volt recharge the battery as it goes?

volt is propelled by electricity 100% of the time, the only thing the gas engine does in it is kick in to start supplying more electricity when it gets below a certain point, it also charges it from braking


there's no like... engine turns therefore wheels turn as a result, just... engine kicks in, generator starts putting out electricity, electric motor still turns the wheels

[aurik]

I remember when these arguments were made about how hybrids were terrible and people who owned them should feel bad because the technology was never going to go anywhere.

The current 160 mile range on a car is sufficient for everything except long-range travel. Just wait 10 years and the range will probably be double that as they learn how to increase the energy density in batteries, more efficient engines so that we get more mpkwh, oh and also improve charging technology.

Does nobody remember how fast mobile phones went from this:
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1705/23434940665ba2cd917bsz5.jpg
to this:
http://1.androidauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Samsung-Galaxy-S3-2.jpg

[Plow]

that's actually almost 30 years difference but yeah, "they're not good enough right now so we shouldn't work on them for the future" is pretty much the dumbest argument imaginable

[Dantrag]

My biggest issue with electric cars isn't their range but their recharge time.

[Dantrag]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/GSM-Telefone-1991.jpg/577px-GSM-Telefone-1991.jpg

1991

[Plow]

if we were really smart we'd have rails and charging time wouldn't exist

yeah I went there

[Apelila]

Does nobody remember how fast mobile phones went from this:
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1705/23434940665ba2cd917bsz5.jpg
to this:
http://1.androidauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Samsung-Galaxy-S3-2.jpg

People can't remember last week anymore.

[archibaldcrane]

If a specific electric car doesn't suit your range/charging time needs 99% of the days you drive, then you probably shouldn't get one. As ranges improve and charging times decrease, the number of people for whom that won't be the case will continue to decrease.

[RKenshin]

The Tesla recharge time currently paces at a little over 1 mile per minute if you fit a high-voltage outlet, which is only going to get better with time.

But yeah, again, I don't honestly see many typical situations where a sense of urgency to recharge is needed when you start every day off with a 150-200m range.

[test123]

A well designed machine could probably swap old batteries with new ones in less then a minute.

[archibaldcrane]

Battery swapping isn't going to be a thing.

[Dantrag]

For some reason I doubt it. Would be scary if it could because I don't feel as those would be very secure.

[quannum]

if we were really smart we'd have rails and charging time wouldn't exist

yeah I went there

yep we'll have charging lanes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4sQQV9ORtA

[Ragnus]

But that would require spending money on infrastructure and solar panels! If we use solar panels then we'll use up all of the sun just like wind mills would use up all of the Earth's wind! Also, SOLYNDRA!

I would love to see this actually happen. It's just that it won't ever happen while the US is still greedily sucking on Big Oil's tit and refusing to wean.

[Raldo]

Last I heard, that wireless recharging stuff was super inefficient.

[Salodin]

But that would require spending money on infrastructure and solar panels! If we use solar panels then we'll use up all of the sun just like wind mills would use up all of the Earth's wind! Also, SOLYNDRA!

I would love to see this actually happen. It's just that it won't ever happen while the US is still greedily sucking on Big Oil's tit and refusing to wean.

I thought it had more to do with how ineffective those two are, requiring huge fields of windmills or solar panels to still not produce enough energy for most cities. Nuclear or dirty energy is pretty much our only options, afaik.

[Jaybar]

Or you know, we can start designing our buildings for net-zero energy use. Technology for that won't grow without more demand.

[Salodin]

Maybe something like a real estate office can survive with zero energy use, but anything technology related can't work off solar energy, and wind turbines are too large and loud to start putting up on roofs. The power demand is just too great.

Really wish we could speed up better use of nuclear energy though, and get better regulation on it.

[TummieGaruda]

My biggest issue with electric cars isn't their range but their recharge time.

Not only this, but I'd want to be able to charge my car at work via charging terminals in each parking spot, and be able to charge my car at one of MANY stations in my area in a short period of time and not have to deal with long lines while waiting for my turn to charge the car. When those things are sorted out, I am sure electric cars will be a bit more attractive to people.

[quannum]

Last I heard, that wireless recharging stuff was super inefficient.



http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1705/23434940665ba2cd917bsz5.jpg
to this:
http://1.androidauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Samsung-Galaxy-S3-2.jpg
.

[Ragnus]

I thought it had more to do with how ineffective those two are, requiring huge fields of windmills or solar panels to still not produce enough energy for most cities. Nuclear or dirty energy is pretty much our only options, afaik.

The first sentence was just a mash up of what's popular to think in the US right now with the opponents to this kinda stuff. There was someone in politics who actually claimed that the Earth will run out of wind if we change over to wind power but I'm having trouble finding the quote.

I don't doubt that electric power is very inefficient right now compared to developed tech but the means to make it work better just needs the same funding and time devotion that nuclear/coal/hydro/oil has received.

[hey]

.
It will always be much less efficient

[quannum]

It will always be much less efficient

640kb ought to be enough for anybody.

[hey]

640kb ought to be enough for anybody.
It's not even possible for it to be as efficient as wires.

[Raldo]

.
There's a huge difference between comparing something that you can buy a new one of every year, vs something you can embed into the road. Yes, there will indeed be advancements, but once you put that shit underground, you're probably not going to upgrade it very often.

[Ragnus]

Okay, even taking into account that line of thinking, it's still a large leap forward for getting off of oil if we can have the technology reach even 75+% as efficient as wires since the cars will always be charging. And, yet again if the tech gets the proper love and care, it can develop into something where it's 90+% as efficient which will make it hardly noticeable.

Using Archi's example of the Tesla's 1min/mile charge time a 200 minute charge on wire would take 267 minutes of driving around or even sitting in a parking space if it's installed there at 75% efficiency.

[quannum]

There's a huge difference between comparing something that you can buy a new one of every year, vs something you can embed into the road. Yes, there will indeed be advancements, but once you put that shit underground, you're probably not going to upgrade it very often.


that's not relevant to "will the tech be available yes or no?", tearing up roads is just an implementation detail.

[hey]

that's not relevant to "will the tech be available yes or no?", tearing up roads is just an implementation detail.
The tech is already available. The problem is the details.

[quannum]

The tech is already available. The problem is the details.

what are you even trying to point out?

spoiler alert ... gas will run out at time X

let me make this super simple

it works now, it will work better soon™

ex·trap·o·late/ikˈstrapəˌlāt/
Verb:
Extend the application of (a method or conclusion, esp. one based on statistics) to an unknown situation by assuming that existing...: "results extrapolated to other groups"; "it is always dangerous to extrapolate from a sample"
Estimate or conclude (something) in this way: "attempts to extrapolate likely human cancers from laboratory studies".

[Jaybar]

Maybe something like a real estate office can survive with zero energy use, but anything technology related can't work off solar energy, and wind turbines are too large and loud to start putting up on roofs. The power demand is just too great.

Really wish we could speed up better use of nuclear energy though, and get better regulation on it.

Note - solar/wind energy isn't the only way to get renewable energy into a building.

We really should be learning how to curb our energy use as well as introduce newer methods of energy production - we can't keep going at our rate and hope that down the road we will have a hydrogen system to save us.

[archibaldcrane]

All new homes and offices in California are required to include solar panels, based on the building's square footage, on their roof.

I think it's brilliant. Now they need to get on board with other states that allow you to sell electricity back to the grid. I don't have central air at my house so my electric bills are less than $40/mo, but if i did I'd look hard at getting solar installed.

[archibaldcrane]

We really should be learning how to curb our energy use as well as introduce newer methods of energy production - we can't keep going at our rate and hope that down the road we will have a hydrogen system to save us.most appliances nowadays (washer, dryer, dishwasher, fridge, microwave, A/C unit) use much less electricity than they did 15 years ago. Difference is, population keeps increasing in size and wealth, so more people have more of these things.

Plasma TVs don't help things either.

[hey]

what are you even trying to point out?

spoiler alert ... gas will run out at time X

let me make this super simple

it works now, it will work better soon™

ex·trap·o·late/ikˈstrapəˌlāt/
Verb:
Extend the application of (a method or conclusion, esp. one based on statistics) to an unknown situation by assuming that existing...: "results extrapolated to other groups"; "it is always dangerous to extrapolate from a sample"
Estimate or conclude (something) in this way: "attempts to extrapolate likely human cancers from laboratory studies".What does this have to do with putting wireless chargers in the roads?

[TsingTao]

Not only this, but I'd want to be able to charge my car at work via charging terminals in each parking spot, and be able to charge my car at one of MANY stations in my area in a short period of time and not have to deal with long lines while waiting for my turn to charge the car. When those things are sorted out, I am sure electric cars will be a bit more attractive to people.

http://news.illinois.edu/news/11/0321batteries_PaulBraun.html

That article is almost a year and a half old. 5 minute charge times for today's typical auto battery pack? That's close enough to how long it takes to fill a tank with gas to make the difference irrelevant. The tech is not battery specific either, so it can be applied to today's battery materials as well as better ones in the future.

We need to take some of the billions that go to Big Oil every year and get this shit commercialized asap. Bonus points for putting a shitload of people to work installing the charging infrastructure all over the nation too.

[TsingTao]

*Removing the double post*

[Pirian]

Now they need to get on board with other states that allow you to sell electricity back to the grid.

If I'm remembering correctly, energy producers are granted monopoly rights to sell energy to the public/industry, not produce it. In the granting of this monopoly right, it means that the company that has been granted monopoly rights MUST BUY any excess energy produced at the price that they are selling it. It's not that states allow you to sell electricity back to the grid, its that they are required to buy it from you based upon the monopoly rights to sell that have been granted, so I'm not sure why you're not able to sell back.

[archibaldcrane]

http://news.illinois.edu/news/11/0321batteries_PaulBraun.html

That article is almost a year and a half old. 5 minute charge times for today's typical auto battery pack? That's close enough to how long it takes to fill a tank with gas to make the difference irrelevant. The tech is not battery specific either, so it can be applied to today's battery materials as well as better ones in the future.

We need to take some of the billions that go to Big Oil every year and get this shit commercialized asap. Bonus points for putting a shitload of people to work installing the charging infrastructure all over the nation too.BRAUN


If I'm remembering correctly, energy producers are granted monopoly rights to sell energy to the public/industry, not produce it. In the granting of this monopoly right, it means that the company that has been granted monopoly rights MUST BUY any excess energy produced at the price that they are selling it. It's not that states allow you to sell electricity back to the grid, its that they are required to buy it from you based upon the monopoly rights to sell that have been granted, so I'm not sure why you're not able to sell back.Whatever allows it in some states, isn't in effect in California - which is doubly stupid being that California has by far the largest solar panel install base, as well as significant electricity concerns. Being able to pitch "your meter can roll backwards!" is huge for solar deployment.

[Pirian]

Interesting. I thought it was a federal thing, considering natural monopoly rights can only be granted by the feds. I'll have to remember to look into that, because that is quite strange.

[Ashmada]

I thought it had more to do with how ineffective those two are, requiring huge fields of windmills or solar panels to still not produce enough energy for most cities. Nuclear or dirty energy is pretty much our only options, afaik.
Silly you, bringing logic to a strawman fight.

Yeah, windmills are terribly inefficient. "They'll get more efficient in time!!!!111 look at mobile phonez!!! they'll evolve that well that fast!!!!" - we've had the things for centuries, they have indeed evolved, but not at the rate of mobile phones.
It's incredibly silly to assume everything will evolve as fast as communications technology and furthermore: so what if they evolve? You're going to replace them by more efficient turbines every few years? Can't imagine that being very cost-efficient... or Co2emission-efficient, for that matter.

Fission's our best bet for energy production atm and fusion our best prospect for the future... but we'd need to (global "we") invest much more in its research, rather than invest in 15th century tech; look forward, not backwards. It's when we attempt the formerly-thought-to-be-impossible that we, as a species, shine.



RKenshin: you're the one being intentionally obtuse: yes, electric vehicules require different habits... strictly more restricting habits. There's no upside to having to take hours to charge, no upside to being forced to charge every night, no upside to being required to plan your every trip where previously you could just spontaneously decide where you went and when.

[archibaldcrane]

The upside is your fuel costs are about 25% of the alternative (in the US, 15% in Europe), and your maintenance costs are also significantly reduced.

[archibaldcrane]

And regarding solar panels, a person can easily provide 75% of their electricity via solar panels on their roof with a fraction of the space of said roof. Basically everyone who owns a home has plenty of room to provide the vast majority of said home's electricity themselves - and that's with 2012 technology, not an extrapolation of future tech.

[kuronosan]

And regarding solar panels, a person can easily provide 75% of their electricity via solar panels on their roof with a fraction of the space of said roof. Basically everyone who owns a home has plenty of room to provide the vast majority of said home's electricity themselves - and that's with 2012 technology, not an extrapolation of future tech.

I thought solar panels were ridiculously regulated to the point where no one can afford them anyway.

[archibaldcrane]

In California, with incentives, I could set up my house to provide 75% of my electricity costs for under $8k installed. However, it would take around 12 years for that to pay for itself since my electric bills are already so low.

Or you can lease them from companies for a flat monthly, however that system seems harder to make work financially.

[hey]

I thought solar panels were ridiculously regulated to the point where no one can afford them anyway.
I'm pretty sure the government will pay you to install them. They still require a significant upfront investment though.

[Ghost_Wheel22]

I know in my area in Oregon Pacific Power will purchase excess solar power. Toss in State/Federal reimbursements and you can recover the initial investments in under 5-8 years. But yeah there is that downside of needing that 10k upfront. And generally if you have that much just lying around like that good chances you don't care about your power bill.

[Ashmada]

I thought solar panels were ridiculously regulated to the point where no one can afford them anyway.

Not to mention practical issues. Case in point: some solar panels here aren't actually producing anything here.

Why? Because their high adoption rates (inefficient tech, but govt subsidies temporarily made it more attractive) means the street lines can't handle the load, so they're not producing anything.
Basically, your solar panel produces electricity, you get your "wow my meter is actually going backwards" moment ...and when your neighbours get panels as well, they stop until the lines are upgraded, which can take a very long time.


Btw, Archi conceeded defeat on:


What country are you in Ashmada? I'm itching to prove to you that there's an electric car in your country that is cheaper than any gas vehicle.

In PM. Even with our double-USprice gas, he couldn't find an electric car cheaper than a good ol' Polo Bluemotion.

[archibaldcrane]

I know in my area in Oregon Pacific Power will purchase excess solar power. Toss in State/Federal reimbursements and you can recover the initial investments in under 5-8 years. But yeah there is that downside of needing that 10k upfront. And generally if you have that much just lying around like that good chances you don't care about your power bill.
Yeah, being able to sell back to the utility is crucial. Especially when you're working 8-6 during peak sun with nothing really going on electrically at your house and the production from your panel is wasted.

[RKenshin]

RKenshin: you're the one being intentionally obtuse: yes, electric vehicules require different habits... strictly more restricting habits. There's no upside to having to take hours to charge, no upside to being forced to charge every night, no upside to being required to plan your every trip where previously you could just spontaneously decide where you went and when.
I'm sorry, I missed the part where I said any of that. I haven't even so much as implied any of those ideas as being some sort of 'upside' or advantage; the only point I was making to you is that it's ridiculous to compare the convenience of gas vs EV without accounting for the completely different refueling habits.

Oh wait, I get it, you're trying to be ironic with your own strawman arguments. Right?

[archibaldcrane]

To help clear things up here: Ashmada is extremely butthurt about government incentives to build markets for future tech - nothing more, nothing less.

[archibaldcrane]

To which I say

YEEEEEAAAAAH BOOOYYYYIIIIEEEEE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU9qYfXltqE

[Ashmada]

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I said any of that. I haven't even so much as implied any of those ideas as being some sort of 'upside' or advantage; the only point I was making to you is that it's ridiculous to compare the convenience of gas vs EV without accounting for the completely different refueling habits.

Oh wait, I get it, you're trying to be ironic with your own strawman arguments. Right?

Wait, what? Where were you getting, then? Those very habits are a consequence of the loss of convenience and they're more restrictive. How's that a strawman?


Archi: please, I don't put words in your mouth, extend the same courtesy.

[archibaldcrane]

Archi: please, I don't put words in your mouth, extend the same courtesy.
Ok, I'll let you say them then.
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/a7411d1c0694afd4b2436cd22f2f516f.png

Your butt is very clearly hurt about subsidies, it's ok, hurt butts happen to the best of us from time to time.

[Ashmada]

Ok, if it's really come to empty kindergarten accusations, I'll leave you to it; just expected a higher standard from you, tbh.

[archibaldcrane]

How is it empty? Just pointing out what you said, frothy-mouthed and furious. Are you pleased or upset that I was only able to find 1 4-door car under $75k with a 0-60 time equal or better than the Model S?

[Plow]

To which I say

YEEEEEAAAAAH BOOOYYYYIIIIEEEEE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU9qYfXltqE


holy fuck 4.3/12.8... I had no idea

that is just sick

[RKenshin]

Wait, what? Where were you getting, then? Those very habits are a consequence of the loss of convenience and they're more restrictive. How's that a strawman?
Because you're attacking my argument with points I never made? Hence, strawman.

I'm not sure how to put it more simply.

Your argument was along the lines of 'so long as an EV takes more than a few minutes to recharge, gas is always far superior.' But what you ignore is that when the right person for an EV car properly uses/refuels it, there should never be a time where they're waiting for the car to recharge. And if there is, it's incredibly rare and hardly a game-breaker.

And that will only become more true with time, as the driving range gets longer. Or would you really make the same argument for a car with a 500-1000 mile driving range?

I drive far more than the national average, at more than 20,000 miles/year. And I still can't name more than a single instance in the past 2 years where starting the day with even a 150m charge would have inconvenienced me.

While at it:

There's no upside to having to take hours to charge, no upside to being forced to charge every night, no upside to being required to plan your every trip where previously you could just spontaneously decide where you went and when.
I ignored this before because this wasn't what I was discussing, but these are also incredibly weak points.

You're not going to convince anyone that the 20 seconds of effort to plug a car into a wall outlet is a major disadvantage. In fact, I'd argue that going to the gas station even once a week is far more of an inconvenience than plugging your car in once a day.

Likewise, I have no idea what makes you think otherwise but road trips are not typically a daily/weekly/monthly or even yearly thing for many people. And regardless, I'm pretty sure that even a quarter of the $1-2000+ you save in gas a year can more than cover the cost of a rental in such a situation, and still leave you with a ton of extra cash on hand.

[archibaldcrane]

holy fuck 4.3/12.8... I had no idea

that is just sick
shit's unbelievable baby

and that's not to mention the retard-strength low center of gravity

[archibaldcrane]

Yeah, I can't remember the last time I drove more than 150 miles in a day, other than driving to Vegas or SF (and that's what the fiancee's car is for) - and I put 12-13k a year on my car for the past 8 years.

[archibaldcrane]

Remember though Plow, that's for the tricked out Model S Signature Performance model, starting at $97,900 after federal rebate. The $49,900 Model S base only does 0-60 in 6.5 seconds (nothing to sneeze at but not WOMG ridiculous).

[Zeb]

Are you pleased or upset that I was only able to find 1 4-door car under $75k with a 0-60 time equal or better than the Model S?

What car are you talking about? STI and Evos should both be comparable and well under $75k. BMW M3 should also be in the same class.

[RKenshin]

Yeah, I can't remember the last time I drove more than 150 miles in a day, other than driving to Vegas or SF (and that's what the fiancee's car is for) - and I put 12-13k a year on my car for the past 8 years.

Same, the only exception for me was a sort of 'road trip' to FL for three days.

But seriously, if I was driving an EV car for the past two years instead that one exception wouldn't have been an inconvenience at all considering I would've saved $4-5k in cash by now... and the rental car would've cost me maybe $200 of that at most (including gas, split between the group). Or heck, we could've even just used someone else's car.

[archibaldcrane]

What car are you talking about? STI and Evos should both be comparable and well under $75k. BMW M3 should also be in the same class.

Sti is 4.7, do they still make Evos?

You're right the M3 is 4.2 I must have missed that... but it's not a 4-door

[archibaldcrane]

The C63 AMG Mercedes Benz was the only one I found.

[Plow]

M5 is 4.4 0-62 so it wins, not sure if it's under 75k at this point, though.

The interesting part is that the tesla is absolutely blowing anything and everything completely out of the water 0-30ish.

[Zeb]

Sti is 4.7, do they still make Evos?

You're right the M3 is 4.2 I must have missed that... but it's not a 4-door

Yes, they still make Evos. BMW is making a sedan version of the M3 also.

[archibaldcrane]

The C63 AMG Mercedes Benz was the only one I found..

[Zeb]

Yes, they still make Evos. BMW is making a sedan version of the M3 also.

But if you want a fast electric vehcile....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2JkMCzjTVE

[Plow]

.

how did you miss the BMW M5? was first thing that popped into my head when I saw the proposition

there's also the consideration of what you could do with say a taurus sho by putting an extra 35k into it and still end up below 75k, but that's kind of a different direction to talk about the lac of modification potential for electrics


also, I can't even imagine being able to hold onto a bike going 0-60 in less than a second lol

[archibaldcrane]

Um, M5 is 90k.

[archibaldcrane]

You guys are terrible at this.

[Plow]

Um, M5 is 90k.


M5 is 4.4 0-62 so it wins, not sure if it's under 75k at this point, though.

it's still cheaper, though, where did the 75k thing come from anyway?

[archibaldcrane]

it's still cheaper, though, where did the 75k thing come from anyway?

Ashmada in PM said he doubted it compared to 75k vehicles performance wise.

And the total cost of ownership of an M5 is obviously WAY higher than a Model S SP

[Plow]

true, m5 mileage is like as low as they can legally get it

[Salodin]

Not to derail the derail, but residential solar panels can seriously power a home? Like say, run a fridge, two or three 40 inch tvs at a time, central ac unit, lights, computer or two all at the same time? Seems a bit much don't you think?

[archibaldcrane]

Just depends on how many panels you put up, but yes it can. Ideally though you combine your solar with traditional electricity when you are at peak use, and sell excess solar power back to the grid when you aren't.

[archibaldcrane]

But look, it depends a ton on where you are in the country too. The same electric bill in California as Wisconsin ends up requiring a system that costs half as much to cover 75% of the electricity needs. Plug in some numbers, see the upfront cost and savings for your situation: http://usa.sunpowercorp.com/estimator/

[Ghost_Wheel22]

Running on solar does take some changes like having a compatible fridge and water, efficient lighting, cell stacking, etc. but totally doable without much sacrifice. However running a bunch of TVs with AC on full blast is a stretch and is likely a reason why your bill is so high in the first place.

[Dantrag]

Yeah, I can't remember the last time I drove more than 150 miles in a day, other than driving to Vegas or SF (and that's what the fiancee's car is for) - and I put 12-13k a year on my car for the past 8 years.

My first job in Raleigh I drove 100-150 a day. Fucking sucked.

[Salodin]

Running on solar does take some changes like having a compatible fridge and water, efficient lighting, cell stacking, etc. but totally doable without much sacrifice. However running a bunch of TVs with AC on full blast is a stretch and is likely a reason why your bill is so high in the first place.

I'm not running this now, but I'd image any home with at least 1-2 children will be running heavy drain appliances like AC running quite a bit, at least 2 TVs going at once, a computer or two at once. It all adds up.

[archibaldcrane]

Still, the point of solar isn't to be 100% off the grid. It can take the bulk of the load, and traditional picks up the peak.

[archibaldcrane]

Thought I'd revive this thread for a bit with some stuff.

Here's the Model S Performance out-drag-racing a M5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4&noredirect=1

Here's the Model S winning Automobile of the Year from Automobile magazine:
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/awards/1301_2013_automobile_of_the_year_tesla_model_s/
and Yahoo Autos Car of the Year:
http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/tesla-model-2013-yahoo-autos-car-165907072.html


oh, and

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/47205_10151030374556339_390186799_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/561872_10151056918716339_2078453200_n.jpg
Coming soon, likely in August of 2013. Reservation made, deposit placed. A wonderful wedding gift from my wife.

[test123]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sOjlx1kuZZA/UIeMlYl_mpI/AAAAAAAALDI/mcBlId9kOXY/s1600/Inflation+the+invisible+tax.jpg

[Dantrag]

Problem with that chart, at least one thing anyways. Is the dollar was worth shit. That's one of the biggest reasons gas was so cheap. And isn't that about the point we were shedding about 500k jobs/mo?

[tyven]

lol @ gas being 1.61 in 2008. suck my dick you fucking idiot.

gas hit 4 bones a gallon in mid 2008

[archibaldcrane]

Lol, the main problem with that chart is most of those prices are complete fabricatons. Don't get me started on the gallon of milk.

[Eurell]

Hey guys. Lets pretend gas was always under $2 with Bush and never hit 4+

http://66.70.86.64/ChartServer/ch.gaschart?Country=Canada&Crude=f&Period=96&Areas=USA%20Average,,&Unit=US%20$/G

[bluefan]

Damn archi, you put the ring on the right woman. Sat in a Tesla S while I was in Seattle and it's a beauty.

Seeing as how I work from home now and really have no need to commute (small city too) except for the occasional grocery shopping, I may consider the Tesla S myself. I know there's one already in my city (was in the newspaper) but I have yet to see it. But I'll probably end up getting a different plug in model, as the nearest Tesla support center is in Toronto :(

[kuronosan]

Gas prices are going down because Mitt Romney is fighting for it. Dattebayo!

[venikk]

I was under the impression that high gas prices is because of oil speculators driving it up for profit?
For every speculator going for higher prices there is one shorting it for lower prices. The one who bets in the opposite direction of fair value will lose money.

[venikk]

Problem with that chart, at least one thing anyways. Is the dollar was worth shit. That's one of the biggest reasons gas was so cheap. And isn't that about the point we were shedding about 500k jobs/mo?

Correction, the dollar was stronger in the dec-08 than it is now. High prices = dollar worth shit. Low prices = dollar worth some shit.

[RKenshin]

Correction, the dollar was stronger in the dec-08 than it is now. High prices = dollar worth shit. Low prices = dollar worth some shit.
That only applies in a bubble; there are many other factors that also come into play... particularly in comparing domestic vs globally traded commodities.

Dollar was also pretty weak in 2008, relative to other major currencies.
http://www.fxstreet.com/rates-charts/usdollar-index/

[venikk]

That only applies in a bubble; there are many other factors that also come into play... particularly in comparing domestic vs globally traded commodities.

Dollar was also pretty weak in 2008, relative to other major currencies.
http://www.fxstreet.com/rates-charts/usdollar-index/
I said Dec-08. The dollar index reached near all-time highs in that month.

If your dollar buys more it is worth more, if prices are higher on the other hand - it is worth less. No need to bring other currencies into the mess.

The reason we bailed out and did QE was because money supply was contracting - causing deflation. The 08 crisis centered around staving away the dollar strengthening too much and causing a deflationary spiral like the bank runs of 1929. So we injected $800 billion into the bank's pockets whether they wanted it or not. Then we started quantitative easing, monetizing government debt. Both of these were meant to keep deflation at bay.

Deflation is bad because business's debts become harder to pay off, then they default and the business is destroyed. When they default the money supply goes down causing more deflation, rinse and repeat. When debt is money, defaults and paying off debt cause deflation.

[RKenshin]

I said Dec-08. The dollar index reached near all-time highs in that month.
Eh? Not sure we're looking at the same scale.
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/0281b8f13885576da7b413b9eb09387d.JPG

Regardless, gas prices peaked in mid-2008 and crashed at the start of 2009.
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/669301ba71a999b27b170ae95fd86444.JPG


If your dollar buys more it is worth more, if prices are higher on the other hand - it is worth less. No need to bring other currencies into the mess.
Other currencies are absolutely relevant.

If the value of everyone other country's currency in the world goes down, guess what happens to America's currency with a globally traded commodity?

If a global commodity suddenly becomes more expensive for everyone else in the world to buy, that commodity's price will come down to reduce/prevent a surplus. This in effect makes our currency stronger, and able to purchase more of that good for the same amount. DESPITE the fact that prices of the good are in fact falling lower in that situation.

But even that is an incredibly simple way of looking at it that in reality, isn't the rule, because again like I said before there are many other factors that also come into play.

[test123]

The peak and crash around Dec-08 was due to the fact that Bush interveined and basically readjusted the price, not gangnam style but soviet style.

[venikk]

Eh? Not sure we're looking at the same scale.
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/0281b8f13885576da7b413b9eb09387d.JPG

Regardless, gas prices peaked in mid-2008 and crashed at the start of 2009.
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/669301ba71a999b27b170ae95fd86444.JPG


Other currencies are absolutely relevant.

If the value of everyone other country's currency in the world goes down, guess what happens to America's currency with a globally traded commodity?

If a global commodity suddenly becomes more expensive for everyone else in the world to buy, that commodity's price will come down to reduce/prevent a surplus. This in effect makes our currency stronger, and able to purchase more of that good for the same amount. DESPITE the fact that prices of the good are in fact falling lower in that situation.

But even that is an incredibly simple way of looking at it that in reality, isn't the rule, because again like I said before there are many other factors that also come into play.
The true value of a currency is related to the supply of it and the production you can buy with it. If you have more dollars chasing the same goods the value of the currency goes down. If you have the same dollars chasing less goods the value of the currency goes down. If you have less dollars chasing the same goods the value of the currency goes up. If you have the same dollars chasing the more goods the value of the currency goes up.

This is all in a vacuum. Currencies trade against one another for more or less depending on what their production and money supplies change to. A higher deficit for instance, means higher money supply, means a currency worth less. A drought or recession will make production go down, and with it the value of the currency.

Forex comes in after this, when arbitragers see an opportunity to sell mexican apples to americans for instance. In which case they need to buy pesos - buy apples - transport apples - sell apples for USD. In this scenario the peso get's stronger by the mass buy of pesos this major arbitrager made, then at the end the dollar gets mass sold to buy pesos to do it all over again until the price is in equilibrium. Resulting in the dollar losing value, the exchange rate going down in peso/USD.

So the value of other currencies with respect to one is a form of devaluing, it is not the only way a currency can devalue. In a fiat currency, money is created through debt and destroyed through paying off that debt. So when defaults or pay-offs happen money disappears and the currency gets stronger. In recessions the dollar gets stronger - always. The problem is that since every business is generally in debt deflation kills businesses.

I wouldn't look at gas prices as acting on the dollar, look at the dollar affecting gas prices. If you measure the gas price against other commodities you find that it's the dollar that is volatile - not gas prices.

[djzombie]

wondering what gas prices look like in your area. if you were hit by the storm there is likely some pretty serious gouging goi.g on. wondering if areas not hit were affected. highest ive seen here was about 4.85. most statios raise their prices between .50 - 1.00. gas shortages too. two hour lines with stations running out of gas is common.

[Ragnus]

MA is anywhere from 3.59 to 3.79 and dropping.

I've been hearing stories from NY that gas is pretty scarce and being rationed atm.

[richardd]

Thought I'd revive this thread for a bit with some stuff.

Here's the Model S Performance out-drag-racing a M5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4&noredirect=1

Here's the Model S winning Automobile of the Year from Automobile magazine:
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/awards/1301_2013_automobile_of_the_year_tesla_model_s/
and Yahoo Autos Car of the Year:
http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/tesla-model-2013-yahoo-autos-car-165907072.html


oh, and

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/47205_10151030374556339_390186799_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/561872_10151056918716339_2078453200_n.jpg
Coming soon, likely in August of 2013. Reservation made, deposit placed. A wonderful wedding gift from my wife.

well. now i know what car to set my sights for after school. i did some serious research since i happen to love BMW's, but i think i love this car even more. are you going to get the performance battery option? and also. post a million pics when you get it on your FB wall lol

dude, big freaking congrats on that.

electric cars happen to be a bit of an easy target for poking fun at, but this S model is no joke

[archibaldcrane]

Heh, no i'll likely get the base model with the 60kwh battery (205ish mile range, 0-60 in 5.9) in black with air suspension as the only additional option. That'll be $58.4k plus tax after federal and state rebates. It just sucks that I'll have to pay the full 69k plus tax (like 77k total) up front, and then wait for tax time to get my 7.5k+2.5k in federal and state rebates.

The range, even with an estimated 30% reduction in battery over 10 years, will be all I'll ever need outside of road trips, and that's what my wife's TDI Jetta Sportwagen is for.

[djzombie]

^ im so jelly.

speaking of rationing gas we have about 3 police cruisers at any station with gas directing traffic around the miles long lines and making sure no one cuts in line. the other night i had to wait in one of these lines and there were people getting out of their cars screaming at each other, over what i couldnt tell but the police are definitely needed around here to keep order. ive seen a few gas stations that are allowing people to fill up only one gas can, others that are just flat out not allowing anything but vehicles. still no power at my place :-(. ive been told the 9th.

[archibaldcrane]

Btw, if there are any Norweigans in here, y'all need to reserve a Model S. Electric vehicles don't have weight or engine-power related taxes like ICE cars do in Norway, so you can get a fully-decked out Signature Performance Model S for the same price as you'd pay (after all the taxes) as like a Lexus IS250, and like 1/3rd the price of an M5 or something.

[kuronosan]

How much did that cost?

[Salodin]

I know you did the math before archi, but what waas the equivalent mpg for the telsa?

[archibaldcrane]

EPA says 95mpge, magazine reviews have pegged it around 105-110mpge. Depends on your off peak electricity rates of course, EPA uses a fairly high 12 cents per kilowatt hour. In LA off peak id pay around half of that.

[arus2001]

I'll be more excited about those when they up the max charge range since you probably just can't stop anywhere and plug in. Figure 500+ miles would be golden.

[archibaldcrane]

How often do you drive more than 200 miles in a single day?

[arus2001]

More often than I'd prefer. Being in a rural area, trips to some locations can easily be 150m round-trip. Store runs are probably more like 60m or so factoring running to multiple places. But really, it's not so much blowing it all in one day as suddenly getting home and realizing you'd have to go back out, only now battery life is a concern. I looked to the 500+ number as more of a once-a-week charge for most drivers, as not everyone has garages they can pull their cars into overnight, either.

[Jaybar]

More and more cities are adopting urban sustainable policies especially directed around transportation - one of the easiest things they can do for their community/sites/buildings is to add electric vehicle charging stations. So if electric vehicles start to rise in demand, you'll see a stark rise in station locations outside of urban locations.

Oh and it's far easier to install electric charging stations compared to fossil fuel stations, assuming a grid is available.

[Jakson]

Here in the Eugene/Springfield areas charging stations are ridiculously common. AFAIK, the local community college (LCC) and University of Oregon have free solar charging stations. I don't know how they work, since it's Oregon lol.

[Salodin]

The casino in south florida has one electric charging station on every floor of their parking garage, 7 floors in total.

[Kohan]

If you want to find charging stations in the United States, here's a few resources:

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html

http://www.plugshare.com/

http://carstations.com/

[archibaldcrane]

Yeah, electrics aren't really for people who don't have their own garage.

[Acevalefor]

Here in the Eugene/Springfield areas charging stations are ridiculously common. AFAIK, the local community college (LCC) and University of Oregon have free solar charging stations. I don't know how they work, since it's Oregon lol.
They have ridiculously large solar panels with back-up power from the grid. For those weeks that the sun doesn't come out all week, they switch to the electrical grid.

It's the same here in Portland. Even the retail stores are giving preferred parking to EV owners by placing the charging stations near the doors and reserving the parking spaces. Fred Meyer has even displaced some of the handicapped parking spaces to place charging stations right next to the doors. There are 10 parking spaces at the local Fred Meyer right outside the door that are reserved. There are so few EVs there that the spaces remain empty most of the time.

[Ragnus]

Given how often the handicapped spaces get used around here it's a welcome change to see the spaces reserved for something else and not used.

[Jaybar]

I think that might break ADA regulations...

[Acevalefor]

I think that might break ADA regulations...
They had more handicapped spaces than was required by ADA regulations. The spaces that they had to keep, they moved around the corner to the Garden Center entrance. I do see some changes taking place after enough people raise a fuss about the reserved EV spaces. This is a new thing that Fred Meyer did in the last 2 months and people don't like it. If anything, the EV spaces should have been put near the garden center and the handicapped spaces left alone.

[Jaybar]

Oh, well in that case, move forward. I agree with the community though, putting EV spaces ahead of handicapped spaces paints the managers in a bad light.

[Cleverness]

MA is anywhere from 3.59 to 3.79 and dropping.

I've been hearing stories from NY that gas is pretty scarce and being rationed atm.

In Brooklyn, at least the parts here that weren't badly damaged, it's more of a first come first serve thing from what I've been told when it comes to gas for vehicles. The gas truck comes in, then a line of cars 2-3 blocks long begins, and it goes like that until the gas is gone, and the cycle repeats itself for each gas station that finally gets a shipment in. My dad is a taxi driver so the whole thing has pissed him off obviously. He's already talked about raising the rates abit to compensate until things get back to normal. Thankfully he was smart and got a full tank right before Sandy hit, so he didn't really need to refill till around Sat/Sun.

I know in parts of Staten Island they've been handing out gas to people who use generators since power is out in several areas. And the Rockaways has turned into some sort of post apocalyptic area when light falls due to all the looting and such.

[Seshat]

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/62d0c62e28d956b4cd293a12d48d47f5.jpg

Took a picture of this in my area (Wappingers Falls, NY). Pretty sure this was a joke, but there was about 10-15 trucks pulling into the station as I took the shot. They came in demanding all the pumps be opened. They were some power company with cherry pickers and whatnot. For reference, my area was barely touched as far as Sandy goes. Live just over an hour from the city. A few days ago no gas stations in my area had any gas whatsoever. Its insane how its affecting all these areas.

[6souls]

Gas went up 18 cents today in MN. This is clearly Obama's fault for being reelected (http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/04/10/reality-check-rep-michele-bachmanns-gas-claims/).

[BaneTheBrawler]

Bachmann is insane and I apologize for my state inflicting her opinions on the country.

[Pirian]

Gas is 3.19 and falling where I am, lol

[Blackice]

3.75 and falling in eastern WA.

[venikk]

Gas prices are going to go down until the verdict on the fiscal cliff is out. Now we know that obama is in and he plans to raise taxes and slightly cut spending - this is somewhat deflationary so the stock market and gas prices will both go down.

I think that we'll fail to balance the budget again though when it's all said and done, and they will go up again.

[Hitoshura]

Gas is 3.19 and falling where I am, lol

Same, loving it.

[kuronosan]

Gas is 3.10. Fucking Obama, now the oil industry is losing money.

BAIL OUT

[AoE]

I am so jealous of you guys.

[dejet]

same god damn it being 4.49 >.> screw long island atm lol

[Melena]

same god damn it being 4.49 >.> screw long island atm lol

Now you know how California felt last month. Fucking 5 dollar a gallon gas bullshit.

[bluefan]

$40 (CAD!) in gas last two months.

Working from home is amazing.

[archibaldcrane]

Thought I'd revive this thread for a bit with some stuff.

Here's the Model S Performance out-drag-racing a M5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4&noredirect=1

Here's the Model S winning Automobile of the Year from Automobile magazine:
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/awards/1301_2013_automobile_of_the_year_tesla_model_s/
and Yahoo Autos Car of the Year:
http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/tesla-model-2013-yahoo-autos-car-165907072.html


oh, and

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/47205_10151030374556339_390186799_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/561872_10151056918716339_2078453200_n.jpg
Coming soon, likely in August of 2013. Reservation made, deposit placed. A wonderful wedding gift from my wife.

Oh shit...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/archibaldcrane/Screenshot2012-12-19at103534AM_zps1882f69e.png

They want me to finalize my reservation...I think I'm going to have to push it back a bit, gotta get my down payment together (after fixing the roof, renovating the kitchen/bathroom and building a deck in the backyard, fuck)

[Roranora]

click that shit son

that is tighter than a gnat's ass

[archibaldcrane]

Gotta push it off, I wanna get at least 25k together for the down payment - shouldn't be a problem by later in the summer, just gotta make sure they don't wanna deliver it in April or some shit (and I can't control when I get it once I finalize). Plus I've gotta upgrade the electrical system in my house so I can actually plug it in!

[BaneTheBrawler]

Being able to fuel your vehicle is generally a good thing, yes.


Still, thing is awesome and I wish I could afford one.

[Mazmaz]

Naw fuck that renovation crap.

[Mazmaz]

Wait why is your last name Lang

[Charismatic]

Because that's the one he was born with, I'm guessin'.

[Mazmaz]

He's white though right?

[archibaldcrane]

Wait why is your last name Lang

Think Fritz Lang, KD Lang, not Hyon Lang.

It's olde english for "long" - like Longfellow, meaning tall.

Yeah I'm white.

[archibaldcrane]

Being able to fuel your vehicle is generally a good thing, yes.


You can plug it into a normal 110v outlet but it charges at like 5 miles of range per hour. I need to put in a NEMA 14/50 220v plug (like a dryer plug) but I don't have room on my 1960s era panel, so I need a new panel, and the wife wants to upgrade the original 1932 house wiring anyway, so... yeah.

Being an adult is fucking expensive.

[AidenCarby]

That car is fucking baller though, hope it lives up to the hype and congratulations.

[archibaldcrane]

That car is fucking baller though, hope it lives up to the hype and congratulations.

I'm pretty confident that it's going to make me feel completely fucking awesome every single time I drive it for years.

Otherwise I wouldn't be dropping 75k on a fucking car lol. No other car could do that for me.

[Correction]

Meanwhile fuel prices have hit a 12 month low. (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100322235)

[dejet]

What's the going price of a tesla ?(sp) talking starting price thought. 75k is a little out of my range, is there a model for say 30~50k tops? Or am I just dreaming.

They seem to have a shop in my mall now. Might hit them up if its in my price range. Next year that is. My driving should cut back a lot and I can keep this crap car for long distance.

[Dimmauk]

We at $2.99/gal right now.

Feels good.

[archibaldcrane]

The 40kwh battery version, base model (which will have an EPA rated range around 140 miles or so) is $49,950 after the federal $7500 credit. I'm getting the 60kwh version (+$10000 - 208-mile EPA rated range) with the air suspension (+$1500, so I can get over my steep as fuck driveway without scraping). Of course there's all sorts of other options you can tack on, see for yourself: www.teslamotors.com

Your state may also have additional incentives - in California you get an extra $2500 tax credit, as well as HOV lane access, free parking in some places, and some other perks for BEV (battery electric vehicle) driving.

My plan to pay for it:
60 kWh Tesla Model S with Air Suspension
$68,900
+990 Delivery
+180 Final Prep and Inspection
$70,070
+6667 License, Registration, and Sales tax
$76737 total
-5000 deposit
$71737 due

$25000 down payment?
$46737 loan
@1.49% interest (PenFed auto loan)
$809/mo for 60 months (5 years)

Get $2500 back from state of CA, $7500 from Federal Govt by Q1 2014 - essentially pays for 1 of the 5 years of the loan ($9708 ).

$809/mo for 5 years sucks - I've never had a car loan before (my 2003 Nissan Sentra was bought straight up, $12,300 new lol) but I can handle it.


And of course I'll save between $10,000-$15,000 over the first 100k miles, depending on gas prices during that time - so that helps too.

[Ashmada]

I am so jealous of you guys.

Same. Average ~8.3$/gallon for 95, ~8.5 for 98, ~7.7 for diesel.
Still, at least it's down from the september peak (~8.9/9.1/7.9); that was fucking harsh.