Final Fantasy XIV Score Discussion

[S. F. LaValle]

Theme-focus = Ambiance
Are you guys really spouting out words without even knowing what you're saying?

I understood what he meant pretty well, and I don't think he's wrong. When he says "theme" he means specific melodic themes, like character themes. You're using "theme" in a more generic sense, such as representing a setting, atmosphere, or an idea, and this definition is not applied specifically to music (but can be if the context is explained).

There's absolutely no fault in saying that FFXII's soundtrack was more ambient than FF titles scored by Uematsu. This doesn't make it an inferior soundtrack either; I loved FFXII, I think it's one of the best works by Sakimoto & Co. It's just the difference in writing style. More ambient music is harder to "remember" because clear melodies don't necessarily have to exist to get the music's point across. FFXII does have memorable melodies, but the more atmospheric songs are defined more by instrumentation and progression than by melody as is Uematsu's style.

That being said, I think FFXIV is the most atmospheric collection Uematsu has put together. I'm very pleased with the expected Uematsu classics mixed with a lot of new ideas and inspiration I've heard throughout. Notably, and it almost seems overdone how the first several tracks are bundled together as rock-based battle themes of sorts, I am happy that he has a great production quality on the rock themes. Before "Otherworld" in FFX, I think he kind of avoided jumping into full-on rock because of hardware and production limitations. Now it seems he has a very comfortable set to work with, as well as a very competent audio engineer. And it feels like these several tracks are a result of Uematsu having a lot of fun and freedom in this new digital playground.

I agree with others about the questionable choice of song 15 being the primary battle theme. While this is obviously subject to change, Beneath Bloody Borders (0C) seems to be better-suited because of its neutrality and progression. I think 15 is a great song, though, every time I hear it, I feel as though Zero is going to jump down to Mega Man's rescue and blast the stage into rubble.

I heard Susan Calloway in concert in Chicago, so I immediately recognized her in 1D. I'm not really a big fan of this song. I'd be happy, and not incredibly surprised, if by the final release this gets the full orchestra treatment. The current slow rock ballad with clean guitars and Uematsu's favorite rock organs just don't do it for me.

I also fully expect Twilight Over Thanalan (sp?) (43) to get the full orchestra treatment by the final release. It played very beautifully in Chicago albeit very short. I might think some other things would be combined or this could be lengthened for the orchestra version, but this definitely sounds like a good candidate for his "big theme."

Overall I'm very pleased with this, and a little astonished the soundtrack took such a dramatic change in direction from FFXI. Naoshi Mizuta is a very competent composer; great with atmosphere if not quite as adventurous as his bigger brothers at Square Enix and Uematsu. FFXI was not a very diverse album in terms of dynamics, including Uematsu's contributions, but it's hard to imagine this new music in a game that's similar to FFXI at all. Can't wait to see how it turns out when you're in a zone for hours on end listening to battle themes fade in and fade out.

[Truhls]

Just listened to the soundtrack. Some truly haunting tracks in there. Absolutely adore it. I can't wait to visit some of the areas with this music playing. I'm much more an aural gamer than a visual one, and this soundtrack will easily elevate XIV above XI for me.

[Cadsuane]

Theme-focus = Ambiance
Are you guys really spouting out words without even knowing what you're saying?

Yeah, that's not at all what theme means in music.

[Spira]

@ S.F. LaValle

Thanks. I'm glad someone understood what I meant.
I've always had this view that game music follows a continuum. On one end, theres music that comes in focused melodies, which is a style that Uematsu has been applying
And on the other is the ambient music - atmosperic and very immersive.

Neither can be said to be better or worse, but theres no denying that melody-based music is more memorable, if simply because the tune is easier to catch. Like you've said as well, there is more focus on instrumentation than melody in ambient music than a melody.. but the advantage is that it stays in the background when it needs to and doesn't intrude into the fore, say for example, when voice acting is used.

Perhaps my use of the word theme is wrong. I'm not that familiar with the technicalities of music jargon, but this was what I'm getting at.

Anyway. I have to agree. The tracks in XIVs OST are some of Uematsu's most ambient yet. And a good thing too, because ambient music fit MMORPGs really well, making them feel really immersive.. and are relatively neutral so they can fit into areas better.

Nobuo's strengths have always lied in his melodies. As an interesting point to note, the only area theme he composed in XI was Ronfaure. The rest of his work were on the main theme of XI, airship, and almost all the cutscene music, which bear emotion.. especially with names like 'Sorrow", "Hopelessness" and "Despair"..

As such, it was kinda interesting to see how he'd jump into neutral sounding area themes for XIV, not that he's never done them before.. but rather that its not really his thing, even after so long...

Looking forward to how he'll use beautifully calm tracks like 2D, 4C, 27, 32, 42 and 44

and of course, 2F and 14

[BRP]

(though not here, and let's keep it that way because that's not what this thread is about).

NEWSFLASH scrub: This thread isn't about FFXII OST either.

[Xanthe]

Also, it's about damn time we got a Magnificent Seven de Chocobo.
(Track 40)

I have it set as my ringtone now. :D

[Charismatic]

Yeah, that's not at all what theme means in music.

I assumed that he must have meant theme in a general sense because if he's going by the definition that is generally used in music then you'd think he'd recognize that neither Uematsu nor Sakimoto tend to compose athematic music!
It may have been presumptuous but neither way really makes much sense.

Now, on to something more important. Let's look up the meaning of Ambient Music as listed on wikipedia (the article has sources if you wish to dispute it.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_music

Ambient music is a musical genre that focuses largely on the timbral characteristics of sounds, often organized or performed to evoke an "atmospheric", "visual" or "unobtrusive" quality.

Now, does that not sound like most of the music in every single Final Fantasy game and hell pretty much every RPG is the same. There's a reason for that people. RPG (and to a lesser extent, video game music in general) music generally tends to be ambient to draw you in to the game!
Town music, world map music, character themes, battle music (it's meant to psych you up, guys). It's almost all atmosphere music. It's ambient music.

I still don't know what exactly you're trying to say about Sakimoto's music, but to say that there's too much ambient music just sounds ridiculous!

[S. F. LaValle]

I know that I wasn't the one that made the point about FFXII's music, so before I split hairs I'll just say that I agree; saying it has "too much ambient music" connnotates negativity or dislike, which I certainly do not. I wouldn't argue with saying it has "more ambient music" than other FF games, which isn't in any way a bad thing, just different.

Musically, I would still apply a contrast between "melodic" and "ambient" music. By strict definitions I may be wrong, but a lot of people inherently make this distinction and I'll give my reason why. The definition you quoted from wikipedia states that ambient music focuses on "timbral characteristics of sounds" to represent an atmospheric quality in the music. Timbre is a physical analysis of sounds (including, but not limited to musical notes), and contrasts with melodic composition (modifies might be a better word, but for this example I'll say contrast).

For example, middle C played on a piano, and the same note played on a violin. Musically, they are the same note, it's the timbre that is different, giving the same note or string or notes (melody) a different physical characteristic, and thus can evoke a different ambiance. This is exactly what I meant when I said Sakimoto's more atmospheric songs rely on instrumentation and progression to evoke its atmosphere as opposed to Uematsu's more melodic style.

Contrast this with melodic composition that evokes a feeling. The Chocobo theme, for example. This same melody is reiterated in every entry in the FF series (sometimes two or three times in a game). Though the musical genre and instrumentation applied to it can be very drastically changed, the music will always evoke a similar emotional response.

To give a really rough example on how ambiance and melodic composition might be used to represent the same atmosphere (similar to how you defined it), imagine a silly "game over" tune, as it might apply to a mini-game or something shallow. In this case, chocobo racing. In FF7, Uematsu uses the chocobo theme, but changes the key to a minor. Using ambiance instead, imagine the The Price is Right ditty they play when someone loses a game. A few low brass notes, a few final notes played in dissonance and then the downwards pitch bending. No one really remembers the notes in this little ditty per se (though they could), but the physical sound of it provides ambiance of "you lose."

This also doesn't mean that Uematsu and Sakimoto don't use various mixtures of both ambiance and melody to create their music. They do.

[Kachi]

Gee. First 16bit FF hit SNES in 1991. 19 years is really recent isn't it?
Backpedaling already?

Lotsa people still use gamefaqs for XI, mostly its boards, so there's no reason those ratings are not applicable. Genre isn't of import either. They're both main lineage FFs. That's what you're comparing - the whole package, not music, not genre, not gameplay separately.

And if XI isn't counted, then nothing before that is actually recent, because there have only been 3 new mainstream FF releases in the past 5 years. I bet you'll say remakes can't be counted either.

Basically, anything that doesn't support what you're trying to prove doesn't count.
You're just pulling things out of your ass.

Where XII stands doesn't matter. Your biases against the game are evident. We don't need you to preach what 'many people think'. We are as good as that many people. If you've nothing else to add then you should just gtfo.
This thread could do with more actual XIV OST discussion.

---

Anyone else think 20 could be used for the opening battle instance? It fits pretty well at the start and the end. The middle not so much, but then the battle duration there isn't fixed and is harder to sync.

How was I backpedaling? You just supported my argument. It's the worst-received FF title since FFIII, which was well over a decade ago (and those ratings aren't really valid -either- because they're all out of context of the original release date).

The ratings for XI aren't applicable because there are very few of them (under 300), and there is no regard for the time during the game's life in which those ratings were collected. Further, the game's relative success within the MMO genre speaks to the weight of its rating. WoW only has an 8.2 and with 10 times the raters is a much more solid score. If the best-received game that absolutely dominates the industry only gets an 8.2, that should indicate what the scores mean for MMOs.

But if you want to insist that XI should count, fine. Notice how some of the points I made about XII apply equally to XI. It doesn't really hurt my argument whether you count XI or not. I'm not excluding XI because of some bias. It just honestly doesn't have very valid data.

Personally I would count all but II, III, and XI. II and III because they weren't released in the US even remotely around the time of their original release (they were nearly two generations behind). You could exclude V on that basis as well, though it was nearly as long of a gap. If you could find a similar source of ratings from, say, Japan, you might be able to argue the status of their reception.

I don't have any notable biases against the game. It sounds as though you don't understand what a bias is. If anyone's biases are evident, it's the ones who are defending the game as though I'm taking a bat to its reputation. I've been very reasoned in my responses and have nothing at stake in this discussion. I'm not the one foaming at the mouth, dismissing very valid arguments, and telling people to stfu/gtfo.

I'm simply stating the fact that the game was not as well received as other FF's. If you have no biases towards the game, this statement shouldn't bother you in the least. If you don't want to talk about it, then simply don't respond. I'm enjoying the conversation for as long as I can pretend that you're not just in willful denial about your own opinion of a lolvideogame. There is nothing wrong with liking a game more than the average person.

[Kachi]

@Elcura: A lot of people expect the inclusion of classic summons because they've been featured prominently in every recent FF. It's understandable that you think it's silly, too, but I'm just explaining that it's an issue for a lot of people who played the game.

As for other games having needless characters, yes, but the protagonist? No. And it's less noticeable and problematic when you have more characters. XII only had 6 to begin with.

@Domon: Ambient music is basically purely background music. It's not made to draw attention to itself. Compare this to something that's supposed to be a catchy tune. Does that help explain the difference?

I'm not complaining about the ambient music in XII either. It was good music and it suited the game. My only point was that it was different from other FF's in that regard, so it wasn't what some fans expected. As a result, they were disappointed.


Maybe it would help to ease some animosity to reiterate for the third time or so that I think XII was a good game, so let's cool it with the rabid indignation, please.

[BRP]

Ambient music in videogames is rare. Especially in JRPGs. If you are going to be sticklers you need to realize FF lacks ambient music.

[S. F. LaValle]

Most of the criticism I've seen against FFXII is the battle system, which is hard to evaluate without some degree of bias. Like Kachi said, there's an expectation there, and having the characters control themselves is a very different formula than previous single-player experiences in the series.

Things like the choice of summons and the musical style was a departure from previous entries. It's ok for people to be disappointed with this, but I don't think these "criticisms" should be weighted with the value or quality of the game.

More valid criticisms would be the battle system or the story. I liked the battle system, personally. However I have to agree that the story suffered with the change of direction during the development of the game. What seemed to be gearing up rather nicely in the beginning ended up becoming "lol crystals and ultimate power" in the end. And the feeling that Vaan and Penelo had no place in the game is valid too; they weren't supposed to be. That was a decision by Square Enix to make the game more marketable to its core buying audience. This and other disagreements caused the change in direction, and the story suffered quite a bit from it.

Nevertheless, I'm a lifelong FF fan, and I thought FFXII was fantastic. Though Kachi might sprinkle his statements with statistical facts, I think a lot of people are taking issue unnecessarily because he references "FF fans" as an entirety, when there are clearly plenty of FF fans reading this topic that don't share his views =)

Ambient music in videogames is rare. Especially in JRPGs. If you are going to be sticklers you need to realize FF lacks ambient music.

I listen to 3F in the XIV set and wonder =) In all seriousness, ambiance isn't a true or false descriptor in music. Think of it more as a scale; ambiance at one end, and presence at the other (in this case, presence is represented by melody). Every song doesn't sit at one end of the scale or the other, it varies. Some songs are more ambient than others. Some albums (and in turn, some games) are more ambient than others.

[Cadsuane]

I assumed that he must have meant theme in a general sense because if he's going by the definition that is generally used in music then you'd think he'd recognize that neither Uematsu nor Sakimoto tend to compose athematic music!

It may have been presumptuous but neither way really makes much sense.

Uematsu's stuff is occasionally goofy and disjointed enough that you could concievably make that accusation on a couple different tracks. Definitely not the FFXII stuff though.

Which actually reminds me, this Uematsu dickriding is starting to make me a bit nauseous. After 8 pages of discussion on this including some commentary from people who apparently have a musical education, no one has mentioned how irritating and cheap some of the synth tones are. The plastic sounding brass, tacky simulated power chords and dog standard pentatonic shred straight from mediocre hair metal and jrock, and the depressingly authentic FM synth tone emulation. It's not deplorable that nearly all the music was done entirely on a set of keys, though a friend of mine assures me that it's a $300 alesis micron being used which is pretty fucking laughable for a commercial game.

[Kachi]

Things like the choice of summons and the musical style was a departure from previous entries. It's ok for people to be disappointed with this, but I don't think these "criticisms" should be weighted with the value or quality of the game.

I agree that they shouldn't weigh on the rating of the game. I was just explaining why they do.

I believe I did mention that they were simply different and not what many fans expected. And yeah, I thought those things could have been improved. I didn't think they were bad. There were many fans that had much stronger reactions to those things than I did.

[S. F. LaValle]

Which actually reminds me, this Uematsu dickriding is starting to make me a bit nauseous. After 8 pages of discussion on this including some commentary from people who apparently have a musical education, no one has mentioned how irritating and cheap some of the synth tones are. The plastic sounding brass, tacky simulated power chords and dog standard pentatonic shred straight from mediocre hair metal and jrock, and the depressingly authentic FM synth tone emulation. It's not deplorable that nearly all the music was done entirely on a set of keys, though a friend of mine assures me that it's a $300 alesis micron being used which is pretty fucking laughable for a commercial game.

At the same time there's some high-quality (and very expensive) synth going on, too. He's using the same orchestral kit as Sakimoto did in XII (not sure specifically which, but Sakimoto's been known to use Miroslav and East-West Orchestral kits to name a couple), bundled with some other stuff like the guitar riffs you mention. All the cheapy-synth stuff used, I'm almost positive, is entirely intentional to capture the sound he wanted. I don't mean to make Uematsu out to be a hipster or anything (like I said earlier, his vocal ballad was pretty dull to me), but let's face it; he's got the budget and top-notch audio engineers. If something sounds cheap, chances are it's supposed to. I'll give you the power chords though, those are probably pre-packaged goods. Who knows with the lead guitars, they seem a little too unnatural to be real, but I think they were engineered pretty well. If he really wanted to, he could grab Tsuyoshi Sekito to lay down some tracks for him.

Some of Uematsu's later works have been littered with tracks I'd just as soon forget (I didn't care for most of his work in FFX). I just happen to think this album has a great ratio of memorable tracks to throw-away ones, and even the throw-away ones have a production quality his previous albums never did.

The brass is pretty good, and they are hard to engineer to sound more lively because they have a lot of dynamic, and it's so much work to manipulate the velocity within each track to sound realistic. This is the case more often that not I've found. But what can I say; the songs are still very dynamic. A lot of composers and engineers with great kits try to avoid dynamics for just that purpose, but I think this is a great production in that regard.

Uematsu has never shied away from funky synths in the past, but this time around there's so much more variety, and each song has nice character.

[Esse]

Ambient music in videogames is rare. Especially in JRPGs. If you are going to be sticklers you need to realize FF lacks ambient music.

This is actually true. There are clear (and usually emphasized) melodies in most of FF, and it really isn't that ambient. If you have listened to the track enough, you can probably hum the melody and anticipate a key change (if there is one in the track). I believe this is a side effect of the production of the very early games in which video game composers only had access to limited audio technology/recording devices, as well as only a few audio channels to work with. Remember games like Final Fantasy Legend I-III (Gameboy)? If I'm not mistaken, they only supported 4 audio channels. Anyone who has played that game enough can probably sing all 4 channels back because the songs were melodic and riddled with harmony.

Even SNES was fairly limited; do a search on Youtube for "600 AD Beer Bottles". That's three part harmony with some percussion? On the other hand, Chrono Trigger was one of the first games to begin using more ambient music, though not much. The pre-Magus' Castle stage was definitely ambient.

I think as the technology has improved, there has been more of a focus on ambient music in FF games. The melody is harder to pick out, but it's still there. I think most of the observations here are correct, but what most people are referring to is the style of FF games. So, the music isn't exactly ambient, but in reference to Uematsu's style, it is more ambient than his previous work.

[Valkrish]

I believe there could have been more relaxed tones-


HEAVY GUITAR RIFFING for level 1 battles is funny ~

[SephYuyX]

I believe there could have been more relaxed tones-


HEAVY GUITAR RIFFING for level 1 battles is funny ~

Level 1~40 was harder than 41~75.

[Cadsuane]

At the same time there's some high-quality (and very expensive) synth going on, too. He's using the same orchestral kit as Sakimoto did in XII (not sure specifically which, but Sakimoto's been known to use Miroslav and East-West Orchestral kits to name a couple), bundled with some other stuff like the guitar riffs you mention. All the cheapy-synth stuff used, I'm almost positive, is entirely intentional to capture the sound he wanted. I don't mean to make Uematsu out to be a hipster or anything (like I said earlier, his vocal ballad was pretty dull to me), but let's face it; he's got the budget and top-notch audio engineers. If something sounds cheap, chances are it's supposed to.

Some musicians have gotten away with that, an example being Frank Zappa's infatuation with bargain bin distortion pedals (as well as obnoxious synthesizers), but in this case it seems more like a cop-out to avoid consideration of the possibility that Uematsu is at least occasionally prone to being a hack.

I'll give you the power chords though, those are probably pre-packaged goods. Who knows with the lead guitars, they seem a little too unnatural to be real, but I think they were engineered pretty well. If he really wanted to, he could grab Tsuyoshi Sekito to lay down some tracks for him.

Of course the power chords are a synth tone, c'mon that's just stupid obvious. The lead I'm not terribly sure about, since the slide and hammer ons sound authentic, but melodically it's total shit anyway so I'm not inclined to care that much one way or another. Who he could get to lay those tracks on short notice is also not terribly impressive since it only takes a modestly skilled session player to hammer all of that crap out in an afternoon over a couple of beers.

Some of Uematsu's later works have been littered with tracks I'd just as soon forget (I didn't care for most of his work in FFX). I just happen to think this album has a great ratio of memorable tracks to throw-away ones, and even the throw-away ones have a production quality his previous albums never did.

The brass is pretty good, and they are hard to engineer to sound more lively because they have a lot of dynamic, and it's so much work to manipulate the velocity within each track to sound realistic. This is the case more often that not I've found. But what can I say; the songs are still very dynamic. A lot of composers and engineers with great kits try to avoid dynamics for just that purpose, but I think this is a great production in that regard.

Uematsu has never shied away from funky synths in the past, but this time around there's so much more variety, and each song has nice character.

Most video games get around that by using the brass so far in the back that you can't hear the shittiness of the synth. I guess Uematsu's just a maverick who jacks up the level on the brass track, and has it doing intricate lead melody, just so you can see exactly what he's got in his pants. Iunno, maybe I should lower my standards because I've actually heard a live philharmonic before.

But yeah, don't get me wrong, I thought some of the tracks were pretty slick and everything and for a video game OST it's pretty great, etc., but someone needs to put this shit in some musical context.

[Kuya]

Jesus christ, Final fantasy attracts the worst kind of people.