Random PLD Questions

[Deimos]

Just a few quick PLD questions that I figured I could group together instead of trying to toss them into the Random Questions thread:

1. Is Hauteclaire mostly obsolete now? It seems like most people are going with Joyeuse for Atonement lately, so is Hauteclaire useless except for mobs that you wouldn't want to engage for some reason?
   
2. Please rank the following shields (and an explanation of why you rank them that way would be appreciated):
   
   • Koenig Shield
   • Kaiser Shield
   • Terror Shield
   • Wivre Shield
   • Wivre Shield +1
   
   
3. What distribution of HP/MP merits would you recommend for an Elvaan? I'm not concerned about their application to my BRD or anything, I'd just like to optimize these merits for tanking on PLD (and NIN, if that ever comes back into style).

Thanks, any advice is appreciated.

[Max™]

8 HP always unless Galka, 40~80 max MP is rarely going to be a concern with any sort of support, I'd trade 200 of my 600 MP for 100 Hp, 40~80 max HP is that much more breathing room if shit goes bad and you start getting eaten with your pants down.

Kaiser > Koenig = Terror > Wivre +1 > Wivre, unless you're kiting something you can't intimidate, then Wivre is pretty sweet, with Terror > Koenig if in Campaign/can't intimidate.

Haute is neat for Pld/Rdm, if I can't poke it with a Joytoy I'm putting on a Maca +1 though.

[Seedz]

Haute is an okay sword, but totally situational. If you can melee a mob with no worries of TP spam, use Joyeuse. Not only will you contribute to the overall damage and speed of the fight, but you will also allow your DDs to go even wilder because hate control will be better. If you're talking about a mob you can melee but you probably shouldn't feed too much TP (Khimaira comes to mind), use Hauteclaire. The hate you'll generate won't even be close to the one using Joyeuse, but sometimes you just have to suck it up and priorize survivability over hate e-penis. For fights against mobs that use constant Physical AoEs (Dark Ixion, for example) or that attack extremely fast, you're better off using Hauteclaire as well. Last, if you aren't meleeing for whatever reason, go with good old Beavertail+1.

As for Shields, I'd go with Wivre +1 (enmity obviously) > Terror = Kaiser (both have slightly more survivability than a nq Wivre) > Wivre > Koenig. If you can be arsed, switch from Wivre +1 to Kaiser/Terror once your CE is good enough. Of course if you're fighting a Beast mob you may wanna rank Kaiser above Wivre+1. Use Numinous +1 for Tiamat and Ouryu in the air, and Sentinel Shield if you're soloing/screwing around (or Ice Shield! shame Ice Trousers are that broken though, I always liked the looks of Ice Shield ). Keep in mind this is coming from an Aegis PLD, I have very little experience with most of these shields and I'm talking from a theoretical point of view.

How much of an impact your MP merits may have is largely dependant on your support. That being said, I agree that HP merits are way better in the long run (anyone who has played PLD long enough can tell you how many times they've been <30 HP and thanked they had those merits).

Hope it helps!

[Lilgangstaa]

I would use Joytoy on any mob you can melee. Even though hauteclaire may help you survive on Khimaira; I've never died tanking it even in full AF gear. CE on mobs like Khimaira can be a pain to get if you don't have many people in range to cure, which is pretty common if you use RNGs and SMNs to kill it like most shells. This in turn means that you will need the additional hate generation from joytoy, or a steady cure cheating macro. I would, however, use hauteclaire on ixion, since atonement does crap damage anyways. I would also use it for /war for Dynamis and Jailer of Prudence etc, Jailer of Temperance, whatever other mob you won't see a steady 300 damage+ on atonement from.

I think wivre shield+1 is junk and is out dated. 2 emnity = 2% more emnity generation per action. 2% will not make or break your pld, the +20hp on terror shield, or the intimidation from kaiser shield can save your life though.
Obviously the only beast mobs in end game are Kirin, King behemoth, Cerberus and Khimaira. I don't recall ever seeing a large number of procs on Khimaira, but on Cerberus and Kirin it seems to proc like 10% of the time?

Since your max HP is directly related to how much emnity is lost when you take damage, I would say that 8/8 HP merits would be the wisest choice. Max Hp really only matters on stuff like Ultima, and maybe Khimaira if your LS's stun bot is broken. I know on my server people miss stuns like crazy without their bots >.> Max Hp is also really helpful if you have to eat a lightning spear from ixion for whatever reason.

[Raen Ryong]

Kaiser > Koenig = Terror > Wivre +1 > Wivre, unless you're kiting something you can't intimidate, then Wivre is pretty sweet, with Terror > Koenig if in Campaign/can't intimidate.

I agree with this hierarchy with those shields. I'm not a fan of the Wivre Shield simply because you can stack enmity on just about every slot, but how many slots can you stack hefty damage reduction on? Shield is your main source of damage reduction on Paladin so I generally wouldn't take a lower DEF one for a small gain in enmity.

Haute is an okay sword, but totally situational. If you can melee a mob with no worries of TP spam, use Joyeuse. Not only will you contribute to the overall damage and speed of the fight, but you will also allow your DDs to go even wilder because hate control will be better. If you're talking about a mob you can melee but you probably shouldn't feed too much TP (Khimaira comes to mind), use Hauteclaire. The hate you'll generate won't even be close to the one using Joyeuse, but sometimes you just have to suck it up and priorize survivability over hate e-penis. For fights against mobs that use constant Physical AoEs (Dark Ixion, for example) or that attack extremely fast, you're better off using Hauteclaire as well. Last, if you aren't meleeing for whatever reason, go with good old Beavertail+1.

And I'd agree with this analysis on the use of the swords. Adding to the above, you can use the Sinfender sword on stuff you don't want to feed too much TP to/cannot build TP on safely but want the slight increase in damage reduction from the shield over enmity from the Macua+1. A very small niche admittedly.

[Neosutra]

Just a few quick PLD questions that I figured I could group together instead of trying to toss them into the Random Questions thread:

1. Is Hauteclaire mostly obsolete now? It seems like most people are going with Joyeuse for Atonement lately, so is Hauteclaire useless except for mobs that you wouldn't want to engage for some reason?
   
2. Please rank the following shields (and an explanation of why you rank them that way would be appreciated):
   
   • Koenig Shield
   • Kaiser Shield
   • Terror Shield
   • Wivre Shield
   • Wivre Shield +1
   
   
3. What distribution of HP/MP merits would you recommend for an Elvaan? I'm not concerned about their application to my BRD or anything, I'd just like to optimize these merits for tanking on PLD (and NIN, if that ever comes back into style).

Thanks, any advice is appreciated.

Easy:

1. Shit is situational. Joytoy when you can safely get TP, Haut when you cant or need extra survivability over the extra hate from Joytoy (or /war or /rdm), and Malc+1 when the two previous cases arent satisfied.

2. Wivre+1 for /nin or kiting due to most emnity. However I would prefer the damage reduction and emnity of Kaizer or Terror tbh.

3. I did 5 hp, 3 mp for hume. Ive had several times where that extra 50 hp has saved my life. For elvaan, can probably go 4/4, or pure HP (alot of mp restore items/spells in game, so max mp isnt THAT important anymore).

[Raen Ryong]

Wivre+1 has 13DEF and Kaiser has 23DEF; both are size 3... according to otherwiki at least.

[Furionstormrage]

1. I don't have a Haute so I'm not the best person to answer this, but I would only use it if I couldn't effectively DD the mob. I use Joytoy for almost everything that I tank, and Mach+1 for kiting.

2. I have a Wivre+1, but I only use it kiting. I feel that the extra damage reduction from a Kaiser/Koenig/Terror will outweigh 2-3 Enmity, especially the longer the fight goes on when it's just a matter of maintaining hate and not building it.

So kiting I would say Wivre+1>Wivre>Kaiser=Terror>Koenig
Straight tanking, personally, I feel that Terror=Kaiser>Koenig>Wivre+1>Wivre

3. I'm Elvaan, and I did 8/8HP.
With Auto-Refresh/Parade Gorget/Ares's Cuirass/Ballad/Refresh/Evokers/Devotion/Chivalry there are tons of means to get more MP/tick, and once you cast your first CureIV all those merits are essentially useless until you're full on MP again.
HP however, well I've been <80HP and survived enough times to never regret full HP merits.

[SubzeroDiabolos]

1- I fulltime my hauteclaire just because it's shiny and it hasn't failed me in a long time. (I know this is wrong but I really don't give a fuck so don't bother bitching)

2- Same as Max

3- Just like most ppl said, if you're not concerned about other jobs you have/will have, go with HP. I'm hume and I had 4MP and 4HP, then a day I decided to drop MP and go 8HP and never looked back, especially if you have Ares's and Parade. (unless you're planning on soloing alot on paladin, then that's another story. Chivalry is still there for you though, along with medicines and food of any kind). More HP = less chance of getting 1 shotted, and don't forget that many monsters can and will 1 shot you every now and then.

[Duber]

I'm on the 8/8 HP and Kaiser boat.

Reasons have been explained by others already:

Kaiser offers best combination of def = -physical dmg taken when blocking%, enmity and resist trait imo. Otherwise I'd take terror I guess.

About the sword... as they said, if you are fighting a hnm and don't have dmg taken problems go for joyeuse. If you are fighting mobs that die too quick to be worth atonement, inmune/resistant to atonement or hnms where you take loads of damage go for hauteclaire.

At least that's my opinion.

[Furionstormrage]

1- I fulltime my hauteclaire just because it's shiny and it hasn't failed me in a long time. (I know this is wrong but I really don't give a fuck so don't bother bitching)

2- Same as Max

3- Just like most ppl said, if you're not concerned about other jobs you have/will have, go with HP. I'm hume and I had 4MP and 4HP, then a day I decided to drop MP and go 8HP and never looked back, especially if you have Ares's and Parade. (unless you're planning on soloing alot on paladin, then that's another story. Chivalry is still there for you though, along with medicines and food of any kind). More HP = less chance of getting 1 shotted, and don't forget that many monsters can and will 1 shot you every now and then.

1. Not gonna bitch, I know of ton of PLDs that only wear the "coolest" thing they have in every slot, it's amusing to me.

Regarding solo, I tend to solo a lot PLD/RDM and MP hasn't been an issue. Ares's/Parade/capped Chivalry hasn't let me down. If I'm planning to do something MP intensive I'll grab a couple Yag drinks and Ethers/Elixirs for safety, and I'd rather spend that little bit of gil than not have capped HP merits.

[Meat]

8 HP always, max mp means crap; you shouldn't have more than 88mp at any given time anyway. I still like haute whenever i find myself hitting for 0's alot with the joytoy

[Tsuko_Asura]

Hitting for zero isn't a sword issue, its an attack issue.

[xua]

This probably belongs in advanced discussion, but alas, I cannot post there. I should be finishing Burtgang soon and I have a couple questions about the BC fight versus the Zahak/Balrahn that I just cannot find answers to. Preferably answered by someone who has done the BC (with Burtgang, especially for the Atonement specific question)

First of all, I understand that the Zahak will supposedly disappear after 3 weapon skills. Being a Hydra mob, it should be immune to Atonement. Therefore, should I do other weapon skills that will actually damage it? Or is Atonement required to trigger the flag that makes it disappear regardless of the fact that it does no damage?

Furthermore do I even need to use Burtgang for this part? I was thinking of using Joyeuse to take it down faster. Granted this BC sounds ridiculously easy no matter which way I look at it, but I'm seriously paranoid about losing T4 triggers due to some stupid mistake.

[Furionstormrage]

Hitting for zero isn't a sword issue, its an attack issue.

Haute does have a higher base damage, but I agree that 0's are mostly an attack issue.

The ~45% DA rate far outweighs the ACC and higher base damage on Haute for Atonement spam.

[Wolfknight]

This probably belongs in advanced discussion, but alas, I cannot post there. I should be finishing Burtgang soon and I have a couple questions about the BC fight versus the Zahak/Balrahn that I just cannot find answers to. Preferably answered by someone who has done the BC (with Burtgang, especially for the Atonement specific question)

First of all, I understand that the Zahak will supposedly disappear after 3 weapon skills. Being a Hydra mob, it should be immune to Atonement. Therefore, should I do other weapon skills that will actually damage it? Or is Atonement required to trigger the flag that makes it disappear regardless of the fact that it does no damage?

Furthermore do I even need to use Burtgang for this part? I was thinking of using Joyeuse to take it down faster. Granted this BC sounds ridiculously easy no matter which way I look at it, but I'm seriously paranoid about losing T4 triggers due to some stupid mistake.

you need to use the weapon to trigger the after maths and you could offhand joytoy for quicker tp still and about hydra no idea.

[Nephlite]

Hitting for zero isn't a sword issue, its an attack issue.

Truth here, except to combat this, usually instead of sacrificing ACC gear to stack attack, just toss some merits in sword. I'm sitting at 3 and never had any problems hitting Faf/Hogg/Cerb/Khim (never melee'd on Tiamat before but I suppose if I got back in to the HNM scene, I would try it).

To answer Xua, I believe you have to build up throughout each of the Aftermath levels (100% for 1, 200% for 2, 300% for 3) and I believe Atonement is the trigger for the Aftermath. Could be wrong though, it's just what I saw from Jackyl's video.

Edit: I believe this is easily obtained through the use of /Rdm; if you went /Nin you'd probably take too much damage and loose. I assume you have an Aegis so it should make the fight cake. TP gain isn't an issue as all you need to do is be patient and just do the fight correctly.

[xua]

To answer Xua, I believe you have to build up throughout each of the Aftermath levels

I understand the basic logic behind fighting Balrahn himself; my question is pretty much strictly about the Zahak you fight before Balrahn will appear. Since all known Hydra mobs are immune to non-elemental magic (this includes Atonement), the question is really whether or not Atonement is what you should use against the Zahak, or if you should use some other WS instead.

The BC is a 2-stage fight, one against a Hydra-type mob and one against the formor-type mob Balrahn, which I can see is causing some confusion already.

[Mayareira]

[*]Is Hauteclaire mostly obsolete now? It seems like most people are going with Joyeuse for Atonement lately, so is Hauteclaire useless except for mobs that you wouldn't want to engage for some reason?

Its not obsolete, its situational like mentioned above. Besides, lets face it. Broadswords are way more PLD'ish than rapiers.

[*]Please rank the following shields (and an explanation of why you rank them that way would be appreciated):

Koenig Shield
Kaiser Shield
Terror Shield
Wivre Shield
Wivre Shield +1


Kaiser Shield > Terror Shield > Koenig Shield for general tanking, Wivre's for kiting. +1 Enmity and HP bonus on Terror Shield makes it a better choice compared to Koenig Shield(you can keep your koenig in your satchel, etc. if you don't feel like giving up the Beast Killer effect).

[*]What distribution of HP/MP merits would you recommend for an Elvaan? I'm not concerned about their application to my BRD or anything, I'd just like to optimize these merits for tanking on PLD (and NIN, if that ever comes back into style).[/list]

For end game tanking 8 HP all the way regardless of your race. For Galka and Elvaan, 4/4 would be a viable choice for more versatile players and also for PLD solo situations.

[Tsuko_Asura]

This probably belongs in advanced discussion, but alas, I cannot post there. I should be finishing Burtgang soon and I have a couple questions about the BC fight versus the Zahak/Balrahn that I just cannot find answers to. Preferably answered by someone who has done the BC (with Burtgang, especially for the Atonement specific question)

First of all, I understand that the Zahak will supposedly disappear after 3 weapon skills. Being a Hydra mob, it should be immune to Atonement. Therefore, should I do other weapon skills that will actually damage it? Or is Atonement required to trigger the flag that makes it disappear regardless of the fact that it does no damage?

Furthermore do I even need to use Burtgang for this part? I was thinking of using Joyeuse to take it down faster. Granted this BC sounds ridiculously easy no matter which way I look at it, but I'm seriously paranoid about losing T4 triggers due to some stupid mistake.

Out of curiosity, considering I'm sure you would have mentioned having an Excalibur, what's your justification for upgrading Burtgang? What are you planning on using it for?