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  1. #1
    I'm almost as bad as Mazmaz
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    GW2 Random Class Discussion: Shiyo Knows Best edition

    This is the new class discussion thread since the build thread basically turned into a general thread

    -----
    I've given up on chasing quite a large number of thieves in RvR myself. No point chasing a single target in the open field who you'll probably never kill.

  2. #2
    Cerberus
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    As per the short Necromancer discussion, I thought I would give an opinion, because it's worth so much:

    I think Necromancer is probably the weakest class in the game right now. Perhaps weakest isn't the best term. Poorest design, is a bit more accurate.
    Historically, pet classes pose challenges in MMOs. EQ had pet classes afk exping/farming due to pets, WoW had the dreaded "Huntards" for quite some time, FFXI... well, you probably know. What it comes down to is Necromancer loses 1/5th of their utility skill pool to pets, and 1/3rd of their elite skills.

    I say "loses" because they are totally unviable in pvp. Not just "well on this here spreadsheet it says pets are .97% less damaging than X ability combination". They are provably bad in their current state, and as such Necromancer as a whole is punished. Consider if Warrior lost a full category of utility skills. Imagine if all of their stances were so bad, they literally could not be used without severely hindering your performance. Warrior would suck the chrome off your mother's clit piercing. That is where Necromancer is right now with pets. On top of that, there are a heaving shit ton of traits that benefit pets. "y r u faget, just don't take those traits lul" you might be saying. Unfortunately, sometimes you don't get a choice. In the death magic line, both of the grand master traits involve pets, the 15 point minor trait only benefits people with pets, etc. Thief had similarly poor trait distribution, but it was greatly improved recently so I have faith in this becoming a non-issue someday.

    The second problem is death shroud. I'm going to try and make this short to avoid walls of text: It was used to absorb burst, made necro too tanky, got nerfed. Shit sucks now; can't use it to stance dance, skill isn't used much. If it's buffed, necro gets too tanky again. It needs serious reconsideration. I could go more in-depth but anyone reading this probably understands the idea more or less.

    Also as a disclaimer, this is for pvp only. Necromancer can plow through pve fine with any build and weapon combination, even using minions. Necromancer's lack of variety in traits, and virtual lack of a 5th utility skill category in pvp needs to be addressed, though.
    Double disclaimer: Pre-release, so, you know.

  3. #3
    I'd Rather Be in Zi'Tah
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClarkSammich View Post
    As per the short Necromancer discussion, I thought I would give an opinion, because it's worth so much:

    I think Necromancer is probably the weakest class in the game right now. Perhaps weakest isn't the best term. Poorest design, is a bit more accurate.
    Historically, pet classes pose challenges in MMOs. EQ had pet classes afk exping/farming due to pets, WoW had the dreaded "Huntards" for quite some time, FFXI... well, you probably know. What it comes down to is Necromancer loses 1/5th of their utility skill pool to pets, and 1/3rd of their elite skills.
    I agree with you that pet classes have always posed issues. Take a look at Dragoon in XI before SE figured out that the player had to be strong on its own. However, I will not let myself believe that this is the issue thats in play here. Simply because the Ranger has a much deeper pet system. While ranger pets are not overpowered, they are more varied, more situational and actually useful if used correctly.

    During a previous test period I had the opportunity to discuss the ranger vs necromancer pet philosophy the devs were using to create both classes. He basically stated that Necromancer "pets" were not actually pets in their minds. They were differentiating them as minions and not pets. I like this idea, but the minion philosophy really needed to be fleshed out more. Minions should either not have to be summoned as a utility skill and be automatic like the Jagged Horror mechanic, before they added the 30second ICD, or a weapon based minion with summon with an extremely short cd. Both minions would have a much lower HP pool, and amount to small dot damage versus their current mechanics. The Necromancer has lost all of its "coolness" factor that it had in GW1 because the lack of the ability to become that minion master a lot of people loved. Even if they did not choose to recreate the minion master, they have left us in a place where most of us feel that the pets are more of a "fun" thing than a useful thing. Not that having a "fun" and not very useful ability is a bad thing, but when the profession's identity is based in the ability it becomes an issue. I think we've been here before... it was called the Summoner.

    I really loved Necro early on. It had its issues, but at least I felt like they were trying with the pets. Now I am just incredibly disappointed. It feels like back in GW1 when you rolled a necro to be a minion master, and ended up /monk or /ritualist as a healer.

  4. #4
    A. Body
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    You can add WoW Warlocks to the whole pet debacle, as well as Aion Spiritmaster, back in the day. Pet classes are usually either too powerful or too weak, and there just rarely seems to be a good middle ground. I'll probably get around to Necro, as a third class, but by then, maybe things will be better.

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    Cerberus
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    Quote Originally Posted by niwaar View Post
    I really loved Necro early on. It had its issues, but at least I felt like they were trying with the pets. Now I am just incredibly disappointed. It feels like back in GW1 when you rolled a necro to be a minion master, and ended up /monk or /ritualist as a healer.
    I would personally like to see Necromancer's minions become a class mechanic alongside death shroud. Having the option to spend life force on death shroud as well as minions would do a lot for the layering and depth of the class, and give more options in utility skills allowing for more build combinations/variety.
    Also I pretty much agree with this post, and it's sort of funny because I was just thinking how Necromancer in GW2 is fast becoming best suited for support, and all I ever played on GW1 Necromancer was BiP near the end anyway. Instead of "everyone, enjoy your free energy" it'll be "everyone, enjoy your free not dying to conditions".
    I'm cautiously optimistic as arenanet has done a good job with Thief as of late, so hopefully Necromancer gets the same treatment, and even then they've been developing and testing the game for year and probably (hopefully) know what they're doing much better than I think I do.

  6. #6
    I'd Rather Be in Zi'Tah
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    As for Warlock, I truly believe that WoW has probably managed to do the best job of balancing of all pet classes that I have played in MMOs. Hunter is getting there, but its still a bit off. Warlocks have long had their pets but only a demonology warlock has gotten a significant portion of their dps from it. After they put in the "anti aoe" buff to all pets in WoW and then the "new" pet aggressive system Affliction/Destruction have become pretty much a set it and forget it pet class. Even Demonology can be that as well, but the micromanaging of abilities, buffs, and specific pet uptimes during Cata would counter that point (but only if you were one of those min/maxing players).

    I actually though post-buff Dragoon's were a damn good compromise. Yet XI is a game that doesn't tend to go overboard with balance adjustments and being slightly under or overpowered isn't really an issue as long as you are viable in a group play setting. Spiritmasters were overpowered not because of their pets, but because of their level of access to CC. Hell, early on when pets couldnt even fly certain aspects of combat leveled the playing field. SM's, Sorcs and Rangers alike had real power in that game early on. Not because of pets but because being able to fight and ranged and kite was more important than any other consideration.

    The thing with Necro is they did the pets in such a manner that the profession just feels off. The class is still underpowered with a pet spec or with a non pet spec. I look at what they have done to the Necromancer. They gave it pets but in the developer's minds they are not pets. They are minions. Minions that have less health, less defense and less damage potential than an Engineer's turret, I might add. The want'd only one true pet class and that was to be ranger. The Mesmer is more a true pet class than the Necromancer. Even if Necromancer pets are vastly more permanent, Mesmer illusions and duelists have more damage potential are easier to control and most importantly, do not require the player to choose specific utility/elite skills in order to use them.

    I will say it simply. Just like SE had major issues fleshing out the Summoner's synergy with its pets, Arena.net has had very similar issues with Necromancer and their minions. I would much rather have seen Death Shroud be given to us a utility skill and them give us 2-5 profession abilities to summon a "real" pet or summon minions of a certain type. It would have been much better.... Hell I would just have loved to see an elite pet ability that summoned a large number of weak minions on a midrange cooldown than the current pet elite.

    Its sad, I can't wait for the game to come out. Necromancer was the profession I wanted to be since the first time I logged into the game back in March. It just hasn't gotten the love it needed compared to the others. I will be an elementalist now instead. I will have my necro but I do not know when. The Engineer, Warrior, Mesmer and Thief all call to me and all of them aren't nearly as broken as the Necro (not even the thief).

    Edit: Response

    Quote Originally Posted by ClarkSammich View Post
    I would personally like to see Necromancer's minions become a class mechanic alongside death shroud.
    I totally agree here. I would rather have a choice. Mind you they were kind of linked early on as well. During both CBTs Death Shroud had the ability to spawn 5 bone minions. In the end they gave it to Lich Form. The ability should have been the F2, should have cost significant Life Force (25-30%) and should have had a 25-30sec CD. I really would have loved to have seen the Life Force mechanic used for all the minions. Give a minion cap, and assign them a life force cost and then you have a much deeper class that requires the player to make a choice.

    As for A.net doing a good job with thief... yeah they did open up other valid choices of playstyle with the profession. I was fairly impressed. I just think its too late in the game to get Necromancer pet adjustments at this point. We may see them post launch, but the most we are looking at is some damage/survivability adjustments.

  7. #7
    Yarglebargle
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    Agree on the necro stuff, I enjoyed the concept of minion master and sure I would have loved playing it myself (I did a little bit) but as it is currently I cannot stand anything to do with minions on Necro in GW2, they are incredibly useless. I like that they differentiate between pets and minions because I actually despise pet classes, but having a horde of minions is a lot different than managing a single pet. You cannot have a horde of minions, not anywhere near close to what you could in GW1. Obviously the way it worked in GW1 wouldn't work in GW2 but I'm sure they can have a nicer balance between the two than what they currently have.

  8. #8

    One nagging feeling I've always gotten when watching pet class advocates is that too often they basically want to be two fully powered characters (if not more with multiple pets involved at once). Problem with this in the PvP setting, then, is that an opponent basically has to kill two characters with the resources of one unless they're also a pet class. But since players are smart, it usually clicks that killing the master will kill the pet, so justifying the master being squishy flops unless you start adding further abilities to the master. If it's at the point where you NEED to kill the pet before having any hope of killing the master, then, you often run into the problem where the master can just quickly conjure up a new pet and repeat the process if they have way too many tools to mitigate personal damage or distance attackers. It's honestly a clusterfuck where, were I ever in the position of designing an MMO, I'd probably avoid pet classes altogether and just spin it as a flavor of mage where spells summon an image of a tiger to do claw swipes or whatever.

    But yeah, if pets are too weak, they'll bitch. If they can't run around with one at their side, they'll bitch. Dare suggest a naked air elemental like Rift is fixing to do with SL and you'll get some bitching about tits. They're an incredibly fickle bunch that's rarely, if ever, happy unless they're top dogs. I suppose that's not too unusual in general, but the concept of two (or more) targets instead of one is still a potentially powerful benefit.

  9. #9
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    That's why I've played Engineer over my Ranger; the "pets" are still there, but are at my complete command, are still strong, and don't really cripple my ability to fight for myself. Plus, I can always supply drop more in if shit hits the fan and really tear things up.

    When they "fix" Ranger and especially Necro, I'll pick those two back up. Its not an easy challenge, though, and, as long as companies have to deal with multiple targets and PVP, I suspect it never will be.

  10. #10
    A. Body
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    Pets should just be treated like a standard DoT with some slight variance, like one that can 'tank' and one that can DPS and one that can control/buff. You can have different skins for all of them so people can have something they like out for each role. It seems the only way to balance things in PvP, where they are another source of damage, but are pretty squishy and the master can have all of those PvP abilities to survive. Add a special ability for each type of pet, and I think you're golden.

  11. #11

    Isnt that almost exactly how pets are right now? lol

  12. #12
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    They sure aren't tanks, that's for sure. Even my bears struggled to tank PVE mobs, but at least they survive long enough for people to hit them for a bit, then switch to me before they die because they're wasting time.

  13. #13

    Well you cant have tanks in a game with no tanking, but what I meant was there are pets for each role some better at some things, higher hp and vit or higher dps, control abilities or support abilities etc. that's all really

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    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    They sure aren't tanks, that's for sure. Even my bears struggled to tank PVE mobs, but at least they survive long enough for people to hit them for a bit, then switch to me before they die because they're wasting time.
    Ranger pets are like a constant dot that nobody can do anything about. I hate that fact when I'm up against a ranger in PvP. Can't remove it or anything like a condition, and if it dies the ranger just calls out his other pet and all the damage that was dealt to the pet, intentional or otherwise, was a waste. Pets are just super good at being all up in your face, at least I think so when I'm on the receiving end...

  15. #15

    Yeah, I honestly think ranger pets are one of the better class mechanics. The pet is an incredibly annoying DoT and some pets like the bear are incredibly valuable in group PvE play.

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    I'd Rather Be in Zi'Tah
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    That's why I've played Engineer over my Ranger; the "pets" are still there, but are at my complete command, are still strong, and don't really cripple my ability to fight for myself. Plus, I can always supply drop more in if shit hits the fan and really tear things up.

    When they "fix" Ranger and especially Necro, I'll pick those two back up. Its not an easy challenge, though, and, as long as companies have to deal with multiple targets and PVP, I suspect it never will be.
    This is basically how I feel at the moment. Engineer's "pets" are a choice, they are as powerful as most other utility abilities and by slotting that "pet" you gain a class ability that is fairly decent on its own. Ranger pets are not overly powerful but they are extremely nagging at the moment. You are not going to get burnt down by just a pet's damage. The pet is there to control and debuff you just as though the ranger was constantly using a condition skill on you. I do believe that A.net simply did not think enough about how to handle the pet nature of the Necromancer. Their decision to have Necro be a "minion" class and not a static pet class is a good one. They simply did not make the other decisions regarding the classes pets in a decent manner. Having minions to me is defined by having many low damage/low health pets. Think of it as death by a thousand paper cuts, where Ranger, Engineer and even Mesmer use their pets in a much stronger and upfront manner. Right now we have a pet class that seems to be based on having multiple actual substantial pets that are really no better than a minion, all the while removing access to actually useful skills. So instead of being able to choose a skill that removes/gives conditions, a signet that has overall benefits or a stability/stun break, if you want pets you are given an immobilize, a poison, and a blind that all rely on your weak ass pets not getting aoe'd down before you can use the ability. All in all it just feels "less then". Necro is the pet class that is designed from the ground up for people to not be a pet class.

    Its not about wanting two powerful characters, its about wanting a pet class that works as a pet class. Ranger pets are dot/condition stackiners. Mesmer pets are dot/condition stackers with some burst. Engineer "pets" are healers/dot/condition stackers. The kicker is, Mesmer pets are an integral part of the playstyle. Same with Rangers. While its possible to be a turret-less Engineer the single useful elite tends to be Supply Drop which gives temporary pets. Necromancer can either be a relatively weak pet class or a relatively average non pet class. It feels wrong that a class that was so identified by its pets in GW1 and even in overall "history" of the profession across games, film and literature to relegate it to being a "dark mage".

  17. #17

    If specced right, Ranger pets can deal a lot of damage. I was messing around with a drake last stress test. Autoattacks were hitting for 700-900 with 1300-1400 on crits. With the new Sick 'em ability, the activate skill would crit for over 4k damage. This was with no points into the beastmaster trait line either. It's very possible to make a Beastmaster type build where your pet does the majority of the damage and you support it and kite enemies around while your pet wrecks them.

  18. #18
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    ^ That's the type of ranger I would play; high evasion and lots of snares to frustrate those around me while my slavering beast chews the enemy up. I kind of played my Hunter that way when Wrath of the Beast came out: I'd exist simply as a counter-class to rogues who would normally have a field day with hunters with all the stuns, but Wrath of the Beast changed all of that. For 20 seconds, I was an unstunnable, unsappable, unsnarable terror that existed only to keep the rogue from vanishing so my pet could rip them to shreds.

    With all of the snares and evasion that a Ranger can have in GW2, I look forward to being a frustrating challenge in PVP. Its a complete contrast to the way I play engineer, which exists only to burn down the enemy through massive amounts of auto-aiming turrent terror, while i gobble on tons of delicious health-pack nom noms to stay alive even in 3-on-1 situations.

  19. #19
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    I went to level 30 as ranger with a fern hound. I dunno what class you were all playing because pets are OP as hell in pve with signet of stone/wild/healing spring/regenerate. Being able to swap between two pets infinitely was just icing on the cake.

  20. #20
    Relic Horn
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    Had our ranger pet tank most of explorable mode Catacombs with no issues. Made the run rather easy actually.

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