Rogue Classes Discussion

[LidenbokValour]

Raptor > Greater wolf I assume?

Or is there certain situations?

[Man0warr]

Raptor is almost always better, unless you need the healing debuff from Wolf, so basically PvP.

[Lucavi]

Wolf = PVP utility.
Raptor = PVE DPS.

[Man0warr]

Best Raid DPS if you still need Hit chance:

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...cf0cksoVz.VV0V

Best Group DPS or raid (if you don't need hit)

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...cf0sksoVz.V0xM

Both builds are basically sic pet, 5x Quick Shot then Headshot for single targets, Rain of Arrows + Trick Shot for AE. Splinter Shot, Shadow Fire aren't better than the 2 Quick Shots you can cast over them, and talented Quick Shot is a bleed so that's all you need to set off you and pets passives.

[LidenbokValour]

Best Raid DPS if you still need Hit chance:

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...cf0cksoVz.VV0V

Best Group DPS or raid (if you don't need hit)

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...cf0sksoVz.V0xM

Both builds are basically sic pet, 5x Quick Shot then Headshot for single targets, Rain of Arrows + Trick Shot for AE. Splinter Shot, Shadow Fire aren't better than the 2 Quick Shots you can cast over them, and talented Quick Shot is a bleed so that's all you need to set off you and pets passives.

Amazing thanks.

So weird having all these buttons empty though lol

[Alderaan]

Best post ever and completely agree with everything, except the stealth.

http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...hy-rogues-suck...

Why rogues suck...

This is going to be more rant than anything else but it will be accurate regardless. All of these complaints are observations I have made about the rogue's role in PVP based on my experiences as a prestige rank 4 rogue and a guy who has played the rogue class almost exclusively since beta 3.

Aside from a handful of niche roles that rogues fit into well, the rogue class as a whole is the WORST PVP class in the game for various reasons. EVERY rogue soul has incredible shortcomings in comparison to the other classes in the game that make it considerably less viable than any other class in the game. The following are a few of those reasons.

1. Complete lack of burst for EVERY rogue melee soul. This isn't rocket science, it is commonly accepted knowledge in the MMO world that burst DPS reigns king in PVP. This is due mainly to the abundance of healing provided by the other team. If your damage is dealt over time or as some other form of sustainable DPS it is easily healed through or easily kited into insignificance. While saboteur offers solid burst it also represents a play style that is a dramatic departure from the play style most MMO rogue class fanatics expect to see. So essentially what you're telling us rogue fans is that if we want to play a rogue and have burst we have to play a soul that doesn't represent anything even remotely close to our preferred play style.

2. Lack of chainable CC. This issue is touchy because nobody likes to be "stun locked," and while I am sensitive to the desires of people who don't want to be killed before they even get a chance to fight back this issue gains momentum when combined with the previously mentioned lack of burst DPS. Essentially a melee rogue doesn't have the ability to kill an opponent quickly so they're forced to utilize tactics to keep the players in range so they can beat on them for prolonged periods of time and hopefully win the fight by attrition. Mages chain CC, warriors chain stun in pairs and can chain disarm solo. Why is it that the class that has the least burst damage AND is stereotypically the chain stun class in MMO's has the worst CC in the game?

3. Stealth, where to start? Ghetto stealth in this game is all over the place with only 1 soul posessing the abilities to improve it which pretty much forces any rogue who wants to make stealth a major part of their build to play with significant investment in assassin. There are various issues with this design but none more blatantly obvious than the fact that the utilization of stealth is the premiere defining factor of the rogue class in EVERY OTHER GAME. Stealth, and the power of it and the play style it offers is the ONLY reason that the rogue class exists at all. To limit it so dramatically in this game only contributes to make the rogue into some perverse variation of what a rogue is supposed to be. If you don't want every rogue soul to possess the ability to stealth then so be it, but ghetto stealth (decreased run speed and 30 second limits) needs to be heavily limited or removed entirely from its current implementation, simply put it's overkill. It's somebody overthinking the class and trying to make something complicated out of something simple behind the guise that it'll be better this way, it's not. While you're at it why don't you make a warrior class that doesn't wear plate or a mage class that doesn't cast spells? I mean if you're so willing to destroy the most prominent class defining trait of a rogue whats to stop you from doing it elsewhere?

Another blatant issue with stealth is that EVERYTHING breaks it. And by everything I mean everything. You got a nice trinket you wanna use that increases your attack power by 50? Don't be in stealth and expect to pop it and then open up on somebody. Nah the game won't allow that kind of preparation because as soon as you proc that trinket you're breaking stealth. So in order to use a trinket we have to forego our more powerful ability (stealth and our stealth openers) and either begin the fight from out of stealth or use the trinket AFTER beginning the fight which wastes a GCD. Atleast a warrior gets to pop that trinket outside of melee range as he's running into a fight so that he has the buff from the second he enters the fight, not a rogue though because we're designed to begin fights from stealth but are prohibited from doing that if we want to use a trinket. So yeah, no stealth = no stealth opener = crap fight. No rogue in his right mind would ever use a trinket in this game that has to be manually activated.

Oh want to use your guild perk like blood thirsty? If you kill somebody and you proc it don't restealth until it's done proc'ing heals on you because if you do it'll break you out of stealth.

Want to use a self buff like ebon fury, blackout, twilight transcendence, planebound resilence, cleanse soul, or even some of the high end poisons like cloudy poison? Guess what, you can't apply ANY of these while stealthed.

Oh and then just when you think that you've got it all mastered and you know what breaks stealth and what doesn't, there is a fun little bug where stealth just randomly breaks when you walk over bumpy terrain. LOL!

4. Sap. Why is it that sap is so completely inferior to the mage ability transmogrify? Now I don't expect them to be the same or even on completely equal footing since the two are very different but when you consider how many more restrictions incapacitate and lost hope (rogues 2 sap abilities) have in comparison to transmogrify you would expect to see a CC ability that was somehow equivalently powerful. Without getting into the awesome upgrades mages get to transmogrify by adding points to it our saps have considerably more restrictions. Mages get to just cast a transmogrify CC whenever they want, in order to sap somebody a rogue must be in stealth, the target must be out of combat, and one of the 2 abilities can only be performed in melee range. The funny part about that is that for all of this difficulty the rogue is rewarded with a CC that has a shorter duration and has no upgrade features. I know i'm not alone when I say that sap's diminished return in PVP renders it almost completely useless as its duration isn't long enough to serve much purpose to the rogue and it can essentially only be used once as you're likely out of stealth and into the fight by the time the first one expires.

5. The infiltrator soul is the WORST pvp soul in the game. This soul does not offer anything that cannot be found somewhere in another rogue tree, and on top of that the abilities that are gained are almost completely useless bordering on broken. I cannot express how completely underwhelming the so-called "pvp soul" is for rogues. You really do gimp yourself if you use it because you give up so much in the process. Those 15 points you've got left to invest after maxing out the nightblade tree are much more worthy of being invested in assassin or riftstalker than infiltrator it's not even funny. This is the case partly because the melee rogue souls are just inherently weak. In order to put a half decent build together you HAVE to invest heavily into a combination of souls. I.E. if you don't have assassin supplementing nightblade for some extra offensive kick you're going to notice a significant dropoff in throughput that will render it extremely difficult to kill somebody. There just isn't a melee soul here that provides any type of a reliable hammer on its own the way you'd expect from a rogue so when it comes time to work the infiltrator tree in there somehow you've really gotta rob peter to pay paul and then you find out that paul is a significantly less valuable employee than peter was and you screwed yourself in the process.

6. Too much DOT emphasis. Since when is a rogue's primary design to place DOT's on a target? Dots are easily healed through in group PVP. One bard randomly strumming away in a warfront completely oblivious to what the rogue is doing can negate the rogues DOT DPS. This is why DOT specs don't work in PVP. A rogues strength is supposed to be his openers from stealth, not the DOT's he's gonna put on you before he runs and hides.

Now that isn't to say that it's all terrible, because it isn't. Rogues do have some niches that make them interesting at times. They generally excel at open world solo or small group PVP. This is mainly due to the advantageous position granted by stealth. Considering the lack of sustainable open world PVP in this game though thats a tough sell to most of the people playing this game. Their tank role as a riftstalker is pretty cool although not the most useful of souls for PVP purposes. Riftstalker does provide some interesting flag running and shard ninja'ing capabilities as well but again that isn't exactly a major past time or selling point for the class.

Why does any of this matter?

Simply put, the factions/guilds/groups that are leveraged into the rogue class represent the failing portion of the game in PVP. Many of the servers and battle groups are reporting one-sidedness in their warfronts and on the PVP scene as a whole. My server is one of them (briarcliff) where defiant are generally getting hammered on a daily basis. My premades do well for ourselves but I notice a significant difference in performance when we bring fewer rogues. Furthermore when I am out of my premade groups and running with the puggers I notice a repeated trend that the defiant faction as a whole is heavily leveraged into the rogue class. Conversely the guardians are heavily leveraged into everything but rogues and they roll daily. All day long I walk into these pug warfronts and find 6+ out of 10 defiant players are playing a rogue class and then they proceed to inevitably get steamrolled, guardians bring no more than 1-3 rogues to a warfront and dominate all day long. Again this is just MY observation and I can't speak for anybody elses experiences, but even my own premades seemingly go better when we bring fewer rogues. It is my belief that were melee rogues not the complete dogs that they are in PVP that this game would be considerably more balanced. Trion has the statistical metrics available to them, maybe it's time they look at them.

[Mytiwar]

Best post ever and completely agree with everything, except the stealth.

http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...hy-rogues-suck...

wow this guy is mad.
And I just love how he's like "Rogue sucks etc. why the dot emphasis? bards can heal through it easily." Without actually ever considering that bard is a rogue. Sab and Bard are absolutely excellent at PvP warfronts, maybe he should just switch souls.
Or wait, his main point is that rogues are a certain way in every other game so it shouldn't be different in this one... right.

Edit: He does have some valid points, mainly the infiltrator soul being wtfsuck but the few rights are so easily ignored in such a sea of wrong and mayad.

[Alderaan]

I'm sure it'll get better when warriors are fixed and actual take into account armor on their skills, but as it stands, you're only solid options are bard or sab.

I don't even bother with WF's anymore because it's nothing but fucking warriors destroying everyone.

[Lucavi]

He wants a WoW Rogue: 10 million stuns, incaps, blinds, snares, and the spike damage to either finish a fight within 5 seconds, or to instantly reset the fight and try again when the cooldowns are ready. While I'll agree that for PVP, some of the rogue souls are underwhelming, one can say the same thing about every class in the game. Bard and Sab are still two of the best souls for PVP, hands down.

Rogues will eventually receive buffs, just like every other soul in the game, but to cry so hard over a few souls within a class in a game that freely allows you to switch classes essentially anytime you want, is foolish at best and useless at worst.

[Darus Grey]

Bard and Riftstalker are still two of the best souls for PVP, hands down.
.

Fixed.

Sabs are useless in PVP, if you don't agree, you're only playing baddies.

Cleanse Cleanse Cleanse Cleanse Cleanse.

[Mytiwar]

Fixed.

Sabs are useless in PVP, if you don't agree, you're only playing baddies.

Cleanse Cleanse Cleanse Cleanse Cleanse.

Good to know utopias exist in video games too.

[Lucavi]

Fixed.

Sabs are useless in PVP, if you don't agree, you're only playing baddies.

Cleanse Cleanse Cleanse Cleanse Cleanse.

Yeah, if cleanses were faster than charges, perhaps. Perhaps.

[Zerocool]

Yeah in large group PvP I would see it being hard for a cleric to keep up on dispels, healing, and everything else. I don't usually have trouble with dispels when I play my Sab unless it's against the cleric themself. I have been playing a Bard recently as well and it's pretty awesome. Went with some infiltrator for the 50% damage reduction while stunned or rooted and reduced aoe damage. As for the rogues suck post, I can kind of see where that guy is coming from with some of the things he's saying. I mean, typically rogues are the burst damage class. Since their survivability is pretty low compared to say a warrior or even a mage sometimes, they need that burst to be effective.

But right now you have champions that can do more damage in the 6 seconds it takes a sab to set up charges while they have their target cc'd the whole time and unable to do anything. Nine times out of ten a warrior will out do a rogue in every area. They have more damage, more survivability, and a ton more CC. Then you have pyros that are pretty crazy at 50 as well. 1800+ fireball crits, 3k fulminate crits, ground of strength which gives them complete cc immunity, 30% damage reduction, and a 30% chance to stun for 2 sec on all damaging attacks.

I can put up some pretty nice damage as sab as well, but I have to spec into full damage from the sin and nb souls, essentially giving up any survivabilty I may get otherwise. I mean that's how it should be. That's the glass cannon role. Champ's are like steel cannons though, they get the survivability of a warrior, the control of a support class, and the burst damage of a rogue.

I've tried to play ranger and MM in pvp and usually I just felt kind of useless compared to warriors and mages. With ranger half your damage comes from your pet, which becomes a pain to manage in pvp. MM was a bit better as far as PvP goes, but even then all it took was one decent bard to easily overwrite any of my damage. They pretty much took away any decent burst potential MM and Ranger had for pvp. With that said though I do have fun with bard and sab still. It would just be nice to be able to try some other souls out though and not feel completely useless.

[Darus Grey]

Yeah, if cleanses were faster than charges, perhaps. Perhaps.

Only need to cleanse before a detonate...completely shut down, you dont cleanse individual charges. And 1-2 charge detonates are just as bad as being useless. People stop playing sab in the 50 brackets hardcore.

Plus it's incredibly obvious whos a sab, you will get focused or purposefully nullified.

All of this isn't to even mention that even without cleanse...you can just LOS the sab once you see them building charges on you, and bam...they did 0 damage unless they chase...and chasing is stupid.

[Lucavi]

Or they can be smart and stun you before the 4th charge, plant the 5th, and detonate, or snare you before the 3rd charge so you can't LOS easily, or...

I mean, this theorycrafting is useless. Sabs are strong. They aren't OP like some Warrior specs, but they are strong. I don't know if you're trying to say they are useless or something, but if you are, you're a very silly individual.

[Mytiwar]

Or they can be smart and stun you before the 4th charge, plant the 5th, and detonate, or snare you before the 3rd charge so you can't LOS easily, or...

I mean, this theorycrafting is useless. Sabs are strong. They aren't OP like some Warrior specs, but they are strong. I don't know if you're trying to say they are useless or something, but if you are, you're a very silly individual.

Silence bomb is pretty dope too.

Edit: Assuming cleanse or w/e is an actual magic spell <.<

[Katlan]

Anybody have a good bard pvp build? figuring out what to use. And what would you say is good for a solo pve rogue build? I'm bard main, but want something else for solo / small man pve stuff.

Oh yeah.. another thing. For just regular raid bard at 50: would you use your 3rd soul for assassin for +15% ap (for cadence) or blade for +5% hit?

[Lucavi]

Silence bomb is pretty dope too.

Edit: Assuming cleanse or w/e is an actual magic spell <.<

It is. If you're silenced, you cannot perform it, plus the silence bomb is AOE, and has a pretty fat spread on it, too.

[Alderaan]

Anybody have a good bard pvp build? figuring out what to use. And what would you say is good for a solo pve rogue build? I'm bard main, but want something else for solo / small man pve stuff.

Oh yeah.. another thing. For just regular raid bard at 50: would you use your 3rd soul for assassin for +15% ap (for cadence) or blade for +5% hit?

Since i'm way over hit cap as it is, i use Riftstalker for the extra HP and the plane shift ability. Helps me stay alive and get out of shit that could kill me if i'm slowed.

[Mytiwar]

Anybody have a good bard pvp build? figuring out what to use. And what would you say is good for a solo pve rogue build? I'm bard main, but want something else for solo / small man pve stuff.

Oh yeah.. another thing. For just regular raid bard at 50: would you use your 3rd soul for assassin for +15% ap (for cadence) or blade for +5% hit?

for pvp, just don't use infiltrator.
and try to get sab as third soul for the aoe sticky bomb, pretty awesome in any situation. As 2nd soul personnaly I use rng, has some decent passive traits (resist dmg taken, health bonus etc.) but idk if it'd be the best one... worked so far anyway.