Comments from the Devs

[Lucavi]

lol what are you even talking about.. idc what weapon cecil used in the original. I am talking about the class system's apparent "limitations" in Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. Make DRK a sword job, or a scythe job, or a great katana job, I could not give less of a damn >_>

You don't care about the classics, yet you only want what you want. Thanks for wrapping that up for us.

[Iremire]

^ PC master race in full effect. The game looks glorious on PC. Is it Phase 3 time yet?

Gross Ps3 players. Mouse / Keyboard only.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I feel like the game should add another tier of jobs to accommodate for additional level cap raises and specializations. I don't really know how to pitch or articulate this idea but after playing some older FFs and reading this thread I feel like it could "work". It could even stay within the armory system limitation by allowing it to expand further by allowing the each job to branch into one of two classes that either chooses offense or defense or support in some cases, but must be leveled independently of the required jobs.

The outlined idea (I hope this doesn't get to OF-levels of idiocy)
Tier I = capped level 30 (armory classes)
Tier II = capped level 65 (current jobs) (require level 30 main class, level 15 in secondary class and gets to choose abilities from those classes)
Tier III = capped level 99 (specialization) (required level 60 main job, level 45 secondary job and get to choose abilities from those jobs)

Current:
Gladiator -> Paladin -> Crusader/Templar
Marauder -> Warrior -> Viking/Berserker
Conjurer -> White Mage -> Seer/Oracle
Thaumaturge -> Black Mage -> Magus/Scholar
Pugilist -> Monk -> Master/idk
Lancer -> Dragoon -> ChocoKnight/Samurai
Archer -> Bard -> Troubadour/Ranger
Arcanist -> Summoner -> Evoker/Beastmaster

Potentials:
Rogue -> Thief -> Ninja/Dancer
Musketeer -> Ranger -> Marksman/Gambler
Fencer -> Red Mage -> Sage/Spellsword

The current options include branching from the class instead into either specialization:
Gladiator -> Paladin -> Crusader
Gladiator -> Dark Knight -> Evil bastard
Marauder -> Warrior -> Viking
Marauder -> ??? -> Berserker
Conjurer -> White Mage -> Seer
Conjurer -> Elementalist -> Oracle
Thaumaturge -> Black Mage -> Magus
Thaumaturge -> Scholar -> Calculator
Pugilist -> Monk -> Master
Pugilist -> Thief -> Ninja
Lancer -> Dragoon -> Chocobo Knight
Lancer -> Samurai -> Shogun
Archer -> Bard -> Troubadour
Archer -> Ranger -> Marksman
Arcanist -> Summoner -> Evoker
Arcanist -> Beastmaster -> Tamer

Potentials:
Musketeer -> ??? -> Gambler
Fencer -> Red Mage -> Sage
Fencer -> Rune Fencer -> Spellsword

Meh nothing special. Just a dream I had I guess.

[Niiro]

Re: DRK and sword/shield.

There's very little consistency with DRK's qualities outside of XI because they'd only appeared twice before it came out. There was no DRK in 3 until the DS remake, Cecil didn't even have an HP expending attack in the NA version until the re-releases and Gaff was a pretty minor character that you had for like all of 2 battles. Prior to XI DRK's qualities were almost entirely undefined, the only consistency was swords (there were no 2h weapons in 4 aside from avenger and in Gaff's case you didn't even get to use the job yourself).

The reason I'd consider it "wrong" to see a DRK using a sword/shield is simply because the most clearly defined qualities of the job have come from XI and to some extent applied retroactively (ie. the way Cecil uses his sword in the DS remake). Most people have come to associate it with big swords and risky HP-expending attacks, seeing them run around with a sword and shield in a 3D game would look strange.

[Grey Jorildyn]

It would, and that was why I said a category for Dark Swords and Holy Swords could exist. Sure there are "Swords" and Gladiator, Paladin, and Dark Knight could use them, but only Paladin could use Holy Swords and only Dark Knight could use Dark Swords. In this sense you could even force crafters to remake swords into holy or dark swords. You could provide Holy Swords with MND, MP, and VIT bonuses, give them slightly better damage than swords and lower their delay while Dark Swords characteristically had STR, HP, and INT bonuses (or w/e) and grant them high delays and DMG ratings. The caveat would be a trait earned for unlocking the job which basically said "Gains ability to use Holy Swords" for Paladin and another for DRK giving them access to Dark Swords. Then you can only use one of the other and can provide balance within the weapon classes themselves per class. Of course you could just unlock a trait for DRk that lets them use "Great Swords" too.

If they aren't gonna change the armory system then the game should at the very least accommodate weapon variations. I think many have argued that already too.

[Cutriss]

There's very little consistency with DRK's qualities outside of XI because they'd only appeared twice before it came out. There was no DRK in 3 until the DS remake, Cecil didn't even have an HP expending attack in the NA version until the re-releases and Gaff was a pretty minor character that you had for like all of 2 battles. Prior to XI DRK's qualities were almost entirely undefined, the only consistency was swords (there were no 2h weapons in 4 aside from avenger and in Gaff's case you didn't even get to use the job yourself).

Minor technicality but Mister Thunder God has both of Gaffgarion's abilities, and also has better grammar than I.

[Rocl]

There was no DRK in 3 until the DS remake,

Eh, Magic Knight in the NES version is more or less a DD PLD which has its magic changed to Souleater in DS remake.

Cecil didn't even have an HP expending attack in the NA version until the re-releases

So this makes him not a Dark Knight!? Cecil is pretty much the Dark Knight poster boy, just as readily as Kain is the Dragoon poster boy. Additionally I was under the impression that most of the "new abilities" like Pray/Recall/Darkness were simply commands that never made it into the NA version, but were present in the JP version.

and Gaff was a pretty minor character that you had for like all of 2 battles.

Right, he was a much bigger threat as an enemy. I mean, despite being present for only 5 battles and some odd number of cutscenes, he's always been a pretty remembered character. His betrayal at Zeirchele Falls, nigga.

Prior to XI DRK's qualities were almost entirely undefined, the only consistency was swords

Then why you hatin on swords? In nearly every game, including X-2 and fucking mobile games, they use 1h swords and sacrifice HP to deal damage. They also wear heavy armor and typically have HP-sapping abilities as well.

The reason I'd consider it "wrong" to see a DRK using a sword/shield is simply because the most clearly defined qualities of the job have come from XI and to some extent applied retroactively (ie. the way Cecil uses his sword in the DS remake). Most people have come to associate it with big swords and risky HP-expending attacks, seeing them run around with a sword and shield in a 3D game would look strange.

Is most people you? Because risky HP-expending attacks I get, but big swords I don't. I get badasses.

[Rocl]

or are we arguing about shields

[Eagleheart]

Poster boy of Dark Knight indeed!

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...ad-d3hwev7.jpg

Also, Zeirchele Falls ftw. I loved the WotL translation. >> Best localization ever.

[Takiwaki]

Didnt realize he used the sword of omens, eye of thundera, cannot unsee.

[Niiro]

Eh, Magic Knight in the NES version is more or less a DD PLD which has its magic changed to Souleater in DS remake.


So this makes him not a Dark Knight!? Cecil is pretty much the Dark Knight poster boy, just as readily as Kain is the Dragoon poster boy. Additionally I was under the impression that most of the "new abilities" like Pray/Recall/Darkness were simply commands that never made it into the NA version, but were present in the JP version.


Right, he was a much bigger threat as an enemy. I mean, despite being present for only 5 battles and some odd number of cutscenes, he's always been a pretty remembered character. His betrayal at Zeirchele Falls, nigga.


Then why you hatin on swords? In nearly every game, including X-2 and fucking mobile games, they use 1h swords and sacrifice HP to deal damage. They also wear heavy armor and typically have HP-sapping abilities as well.


Is most people you? Because risky HP-expending attacks I get, but big swords I don't. I get badasses.

or are we arguing about shields

-Yea it was kind of an out of place job, its only "unique" feature was being able to use the dark blades/ninja swords to deal with splitting enemies since you didn't get NIN till the very end of the game in the original, other than that it was a knight with much crappier defense.

-Was making the point that DRK as a job in function was not well defined at all originally.

-I think he receives a disproportionate amount of attention simply because he shows up kicking ass and taking names in the scripted opening fight sequence and everyone wanted to use DRK in FFT (both because they liked the job concept and because of the HP drain attack).

-Yea, it's mostly about sword/shield. Cecil "used" a shield yea, but you never saw him actually.....use it, it was just a piece of equip in the menu (same goes for DRG and shields). You never see him using a shield in any artwork or later renders for remakes/other games (like I mentioned before even in the DS remake he uses DRK swords 2 handed with his shield just kinda stuck on his forearm).

Also I was focusing on presentations of DRK before XI and how XI defined the job more than any other game. DRK wasn't present in any of the games that had job systems* until after XI, so it never really had a clear identity just a generic style/theme.

*FFT being the quasi-exception, but it wasn't available to the player and had just 2 skills, compare that to the WoTL remake where it was a full-on unique job with many more skills and it's own secondary traits/abilities (rather than the Gaff version which just had the generic Squire stuff like other characters when on their unique jobs).

I think the crux of it is: in a FF game where 1 weapon = 1 job, which job would get the 2h sword if not DRK?

[Lucavi]

-Was making the point that DRK as a job in function was not well defined at all originally.

This is where you're full of bullshit. You don't know what you're talking about. Cecil had the Darkness ability from the beginning. It was always there, simply removed (much like Tellah's Recall, Yang's Store, aka. Boost from XI, Yang's Endure, and a slew of other abilities, items and monster attacks) from the Easy-type version that NA and some stores in Japan were stocked with. The sweeping majority of Japanese boys and girls got to spam Darkness just as much as Cecil's dark side did on the summit of Mount Ordeals. Darkness works extremely similar to souleater, its just that souleater is nerfed because firing a massive ability that either hits everyone around or hits in a wide cone would be OP given the amount of HP loss suffered.

The rest of the stuff you're spouting is fine, but please, please stop speaking about DRK's "definition" as if you are the be-all end-all or some dev back in the 1990's. Darkness was always there. Souleater was derived from Darkness. Dark Knight in 1992 had just as much "definition" as Dark Knight did in 2000 - "Wear heavy armor, sacrifice HP to deal damage to the enemy."

Its like saying Monk had no identity because they took out Store in the easy-type of IV, NAs didn't originally get FFV, so they didn't see it there, and then didn't see it again until XI.

[Niiro]

I'm well aware that the skill was removed.

One skill a job does not make. DRK's only other appearance between 4 and XI was tactics, which didn't include a skill like Darkness.

DRK in 4 was as much a story element as a character class, even Darkness was used symbolically in the fight at Ordeals.

edit:

eh, it's not really fair to say one skill doesn't define a job, it can but it's not very much

[Lokus]

-Yea it was kind of an out of place job, its only "unique" feature was being able to use the dark blades/ninja swords to deal with splitting enemies since you didn't get NIN till the very end of the game in the original, other than that it was a knight with much crappier defense.

-Was making the point that DRK as a job in function was not well defined at all originally.

-I think he receives a disproportionate amount of attention simply because he shows up kicking ass and taking names in the scripted opening fight sequence and everyone wanted to use DRK in FFT (both because they liked the job concept and because of the HP drain attack).

-Yea, it's mostly about sword/shield. Cecil "used" a shield yea, but you never saw him actually.....use it, it was just a piece of equip in the menu (same goes for DRG and shields). You never see him using a shield in any artwork or later renders for remakes/other games (like I mentioned before even in the DS remake he uses DRK swords 2 handed with his shield just kinda stuck on his forearm).

Also I was focusing on presentations of DRK before XI and how XI defined the job more than any other game. DRK wasn't present in any of the games that had job systems* until after XI, so it never really had a clear identity just a generic style/theme.

*FFT being the quasi-exception, but it wasn't available to the player and had just 2 skills, compare that to the WoTL remake where it was a full-on unique job with many more skills and it's own secondary traits/abilities (rather than the Gaff version which just had the generic Squire stuff like other characters when on their unique jobs).

I think the crux of it is: in a FF game where 1 weapon = 1 job, which job would get the 2h sword if not DRK?

I wouldn't really take XI has the defining moment for a job since SE pretty much molded the job to fit the game. That said, the way jobs change slightly from game to game, shows that SE is always tweaking the jobs as time goes on and retrofitting the old games to fit the new vision, but still keeping certain trademarks and roles. At least DRK isn't like Samurai, a job that aside from using a Katana for a weapon, hasn't really been defined and basically is just tossed in to fill a gap in the game. It pretty much plays completely different in most of the games it shows up. Samurai in it's XI iteration would have no place in ARR since it's defining features in XI have been distributed to all the classes not to mention ARR's lack of skillchains makes it's other XI feature moot. FFX and FFX-2's Samurai is basically a retuned Knight which attacks a target's stats or outright tries to KO opponents. Then there is FFTA2's Samurai, which has a little bit of elemental magic attacks coupled with debuffs. And let's not forget FFT where you basically just blow up your katanas to use skills.

What's the point of all this? SE will basically do whatever the hell they want. They could make DRK a tank in ARR for all we know while still keeping it's trademark "darkness" affinity.

[Niiro]

I'm not entirely sure what we're debating at this point either.

I just don't want to see DRK be an off shoot of GLA and use a sword/shield because that's gonna start a trend of them reusing weapons on other classes with other jobs and shit's gonna be boring.

It was stupid to lock classes and weapons to begin with and I don't want to see them sacrificing variety because they have to conform to that system.

[Raldo]

It was stupid to lock classes and weapons to begin with and I don't want to see them sacrificing variety because they have to conform to that system.

They could easily just set all the DRK weapons to DRK-only. Just like relic weapons did in 1.0, it'd auto-equip your job stone, and you could only use them on DRK. With that limitation, they could easily all internally be flagged as "Gladiator Arms", but externally, they appear to be DRK-only. Great swords, scythes, regular swords with a no-shield limitation on them, dildos, they could use whatever.

[Niiro]

What will DRK do with a bunch of shield skills and no shield? A scythe with a bunch of sword WSs?

"Oh well they can replace those skills with other ones"

THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT OF DRK BRANCHING OFF OF GLA.

.....is the way I'm viewing the situation.

[Waraji]

Fk You That's Why! :D

I could see DRK only branching off MRD atm assuming Jobs work in similar fashion as they did in 1.0.

[Almalexia]

Spoiler: show

I feel like the game should add another tier of jobs to accommodate for additional level cap raises and specializations. I don't really know how to pitch or articulate this idea but after playing some older FFs and reading this thread I feel like it could "work". It could even stay within the armory system limitation by allowing it to expand further by allowing the each job to branch into one of two classes that either chooses offense or defense or support in some cases, but must be leveled independently of the required jobs.

The outlined idea (I hope this doesn't get to OF-levels of idiocy)
Tier I = capped level 30 (armory classes)
Tier II = capped level 65 (current jobs) (require level 30 main class, level 15 in secondary class and gets to choose abilities from those classes)
Tier III = capped level 99 (specialization) (required level 60 main job, level 45 secondary job and get to choose abilities from those jobs)

Current:
Gladiator -> Paladin -> Crusader/Templar
Marauder -> Warrior -> Viking/Berserker
Conjurer -> White Mage -> Seer/Oracle
Thaumaturge -> Black Mage -> Magus/Scholar
Pugilist -> Monk -> Master/idk
Lancer -> Dragoon -> ChocoKnight/Samurai
Archer -> Bard -> Troubadour/Ranger
Arcanist -> Summoner -> Evoker/Beastmaster

Potentials:
Rogue -> Thief -> Ninja/Dancer
Musketeer -> Ranger -> Marksman/Gambler
Fencer -> Red Mage -> Sage/Spellsword

The current options include branching from the class instead into either specialization:
Gladiator -> Paladin -> Crusader
Gladiator -> Dark Knight -> Evil bastard
Marauder -> Warrior -> Viking
Marauder -> ??? -> Berserker
Conjurer -> White Mage -> Seer
Conjurer -> Elementalist -> Oracle
Thaumaturge -> Black Mage -> Magus
Thaumaturge -> Scholar -> Calculator
Pugilist -> Monk -> Master
Pugilist -> Thief -> Ninja
Lancer -> Dragoon -> Chocobo Knight
Lancer -> Samurai -> Shogun
Archer -> Bard -> Troubadour
Archer -> Ranger -> Marksman
Arcanist -> Summoner -> Evoker
Arcanist -> Beastmaster -> Tamer

Potentials:
Musketeer -> ??? -> Gambler
Fencer -> Red Mage -> Sage
Fencer -> Rune Fencer -> Spellsword

Meh nothing special. Just a dream I had I guess.

http://mana.wikia.com/wiki/Hawkeye#Classes

Something like this, then?

[Lucavi]

I'm well aware that the skill was removed.

One skill a job does not make. DRK's only other appearance between 4 and XI was tactics, which didn't include a skill like Darkness.

DRK in 4 was as much a story element as a character class, even Darkness was used symbolically in the fight at Ordeals.

edit:

eh, it's not really fair to say one skill doesn't define a job, it can but it's not very much

Because steal doesn't define thf. What else does, then?