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  1. #21
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    Yeah, BLM gets another MAB Tier before 95. It's 40 MAB from traits now. Did you have any potency merits?

  2. #22
    TSwiftie
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    My bad on the mab. I didn't think to test it, and it looked ok, but I guess 2 moar mab fits. Ice and thunder potency, and wind day. I was rushed last night, but ill do more thorough and controlled testing tonight or this weekend. I've been been busy lately, so its hard for me to keep up... Is there a list of things untested, like comet d, m values, or thunder v and blizzaja?

  3. #23
    Hydra
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    I agree with Dasva, BLM95 must have MAB VI trait with +40 MAB, the Ice and Thunder figures work fine if you have full Ice and Thunder merits, for an extra +10 MAB on those.

    I'm pretty certain my Aero cap is correct.
    I looked at my old notes and found where I tested the caps on rarabs in West Sarutabaruta as a lv85 RDM/sch with no MAB/affinity gear and 85+44 INT, and I got 117dmg, which is 95 * 1.24.

    As for Fire 3, I said my assumptions were less likely to be correct after M changes.
    I had another idea though, that maybe the assumption still works if you assume the inflection point dINT is based on dINT*M = V of the next spell.
    For example, Fire 3 inflection point would be: Blizzard 3's V (320) / Fire 3's M (1.5) = 213.333333... so the inflection point for Fire 3 might be dINT+214, or maybe dINT+213.

    The cap for Fire 3, if inflection point is dINT+214 would therefore be D=937 (dINT+642)
    937 * 10.4 = 9744.8 though... whereas Kirschy got 9838.

    If Fire 3 was actually capped though, the inflection point would have to be dINT+217...
    (Inflection point * 2 * M + V)
    217 * 2 * 1.5 + 295 .... cap D=946 (dINT+651)
    946 * 10.4 = 9838.4

    -Edit-
    Thinking about this a bit more, I think it is impossible that Fire 3 wasn't capped.
    Assuming the target mob doesn't have ~500 INT and it's more likely something below 100, to get a dINT of 899 or higher you would have to lower the inflection point dINT by so much, and you would be lowering the cap for D as you lower the inflection point...
    -Edit-
    Even if the inflection point was somehow 0, which it isn't, the mob would still have to have 131 INT, for (868 * (1.5/2) + 295) * 10.4 = 9838 dmg, while mobs in Aby-Dem usually have more like 60-70 INT...
    So Fire 3 was almost definitely capped at D=964 (dINT+651) and the inflection point was probably dINT+217.

  4. #24
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    Thought I should finish the divine nuke list I made on the previous page...
    Code:
    Banish:      V=14  M=1.0 InflectionPoint=dMND+25  Cap D=64   (dMND+75)
    Banish II:   V=85  M=1.0 InflectionPoint=dMND+113 Cap D=311  (dMND+339)
    Banish III:  V=198 M=1.5 InflectionPoint=dMND+177 Cap D=729  (dMND+531)
    Banish IV:   V=290 M=2.0 InflectionPoint=???      Cap D=???
    Banishga:    V=50  M=1.0 InflectionPoint=dMND+46  Cap D=142  (dMND+138)
    Banishga II: V=180 M=1.0 InflectionPoint=dMND+133 Cap D=446  (dMND+399)
    Holy:        V=125 M=1.0 InflectionPoint=dMND+155 Cap D=435  (dMND+465)
    Holy II:     V=250 M=2.0 InflectionPoint=dMND+293 Cap D=1422 (dMND+879)
    -Update-
    I added Banish IV to the list too, just in case I loose the V and M values I tested it as having.
    I doubt it will be possible to find the inflection point and cap for it, unless WHM gets given the spell.
    And I guess now I'll never complete this list after all.

    I've also tried figuring out how to calculate the initial damage of the Dia spells, but as they don't count as divine magic any more, they don't really belong in this list anyway.

  5. #25
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    Nice stuff! I'll see if my undercover BLM can pinpoint the specific -ja location (Or I can try my hand at the test server).

  6. #26
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    I haven't noticed much regarding Thunder V, Blizzaja and Comet so here are some tests:

    BLM/SCH
    Burn cast on each mob, avoided use of more than 1 AF3, and avoided day of the week

    Code:
    MAB: 40 traits + 10 gear
    INT107		Comet = 1810
    INT107+1	Comet = 1815
    INT107+4	Comet = 1824
    INT107+20	Comet = 1879
    INT107+25	Comet = 1897
    INT107+30	Comet = 1914
    INT107+35	Comet = 1932
    INT107+45 	Comet = 1966
    INT107+56	Comet = 2004
    
    M = 2.2998 or 2355/1024 (2.299 does not work for the 108 INT case, 2.3 does not work for 111 INT case)
    V = 964
    
    
    
    
    MAB: 40 traits + 10 merits
    INT107		Thunder V = 1675
    INT108		Thunder V = 1680
    INT107+7	Thunder V = 1699
    INT107+14	Thunder V = 1723
    INT107+24	Thunder V = 1758
    INT107+35	Thunder V = 1797
    INT107+42	Thunder V = 1821
    INT107+48 MAB+2	Thunder V = 1866
    INT107+56 MAB+2	Thunder V = 1893
    
    M = 2.2998 or 2355/1024 (2.299 does not work for 108 INT)
    V = 874
    
    
    
    
    MAB: 40 traits + 10 merits
    INT107		Blizzaja = 1794
    INT107+1	Blizzaja = 1798
    INT107+4	Blizzaja = 1807
    INT107+7	Blizzaja = 1818
    INT107+15	Blizzaja = 1846
    INT107+25	Blizzaja = 1881
    INT107+32	Blizzaja = 1905
    INT107+39	Blizzaja = 1929 
    INT107+42	Blizzaja = 1939
    INT107+48 	Blizzaja = 1960
    INT107+54 	Blizzaja = 1980
    
    M = 2.2998 or 2355/1024	(2.299 does not work for 108 INT, 2.3 does not work for 111 INT)
    V = 953

  7. #27
    Hydra
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    I assume by using burn you are reducing the target to 1 INT?
    So INT107 is the same as dINT+106 ?
    If so, your numbers add up fine in each of your tests except for the last Blizzaja, with 107+56 INT the answer 1980 isn't right, unless you meant to put 107+54 instead.

    I was trying to get my head around this for a couple of months ago.
    It would be nice if the M value for Thunder V was just simply 2.998 or even 2355/1024, but even that doesn't work 100% still.

    Here's a test I did a couple of times...

    BLM95/rdm, INT 999, MAB 1040 (40 traits + 1000 brew)
    vs. Pachypodium (Abyssea - Tahrongi), INT 55

    Thunder V = 31657 dmg

    Code:
    dINT = 944
    V = 874
    MAB = x10.4
    
    If M is 2355/1024, then...
    
    944 * 2355/1024 = 2171.015625
    2171 + 874 = 3045
    3045 * 10.4 = 31668 dmg
    2355/1024 is too high according to this, and so is 2.998.
    2.9979 would be too high, but 2.9978 would be just low enough to give the correct answer in my test.
    2354/1024 is too low, as it's even lower than 2.99, which your test showed is already too low.

    You could try using /2048 or /4096 ?

    9420/4096 == 2355/1024
    9419/4096 is low enough to pass my test.
    9418/4096 == 4709/2048, this could be the correct answer.
    9417/4096 is high enough to pass your INT 107+1 tests.
    9416/4096 == 2354/1024

  8. #28
    Ridill
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    Isn't it possible you capped dint? Or at least hit the inflection point. Sounds like you would've from what I've seen of other spells/ws but haven't checked to see if these new spells follow that as well

  9. #29
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    I didn't hit the inflection point.
    The M value is something around that value the whole way up from dINT+1, even if I had hit an inflection point, it would have thrown my M value off by a more obvious amount.

    I need to update all that stuff I posted before about inflection points and caps.
    I got lazy the last few weeks and didn't play or post any of my findings from before.
    Now it's going to take ages to understand all my messy notes and spreadsheets before I can understand it all means again.

    One thing I just noticed a second ago though... It looks like WHM is probably going to get a new spell, "Araise", at level 99.
    It looks like its a healing magic spell that you target dead people with, has the same 150 MP cost and 13 sec cast time as Raise, but has a 2 minute recast.

  10. #30
    Ridill
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    Also.. why you no have thunder merits!?!

    Yeah it's in the dats but not for this update it seems.

  11. #31
    Hydra
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    My BLM isn't even 75 yet, lol. I pretty much only have RDM, and everything else is just a sub job.
    But on the test server you can just ask for merit points whenever you want.
    So to keep things simple I keep merits that affect magic damage off when testing stuff, unless I have a need for them.

    Araise wasn't in the dats a few weeks ago... That ID used to be a WHM lv99 Black Magic, Earth elemental, Self enhancing spell! O.o

  12. #32
    Ridill
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    I should play in the test server sometime. I like brewing shit. As far as those merits I kinda like them as it gives blm 50 mab which is alot funner number than 40 when doing maths. Could it be case of really weird rounding this game sometimes does?

    I mean I think it was in the test dats that they just updated. But that it's not in the update note forums.

  13. #33
    Hydra
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    You can ask the moogle to give you every spell available. He gave me all the new spells like Gain-INT and Gravity II, but it didn't give me Araise.

    Yeah, 50 is a nicer number, but you have to remember that thunder and blizzard have 50 mab and the other spells have 40, which isn't quite so nice.

  14. #34
    Ridill
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    Yeah that's what I mean it's in there but not available like so many things in this game.

    But but you can just change it again!!! Or gear 10 mab.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mougurijin View Post
    I assume by using burn you are reducing the target to 1 INT?
    So INT107 is the same as dINT+106 ?
    If so, your numbers add up fine in each of your tests except for the last Blizzaja, with 107+56 INT the answer 1980 isn't right, unless you meant to put 107+54 instead.
    Sorry, I didn't see this until just now. Yes, burn is meant to reduce the target's INT to 1 and as such the for each INT value, I listed you would subtract 1 to get dINT. For blizzaja, +56 is a typo, sorry, it should have said +54 like you mentioned.

    Your data regarding M values is interesting. I haven't gone to such extreme int values and I don't know what to suggest as the right answer. It's quite strange.

  16. #36
    Hydra
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    OK, I've found out something that should be pretty interesting...

    The M value for Thunder 5 is at least 2.29955947136564, but lower than 2.29957805907173.

    9419/4096 (2.2995605469) just happens to be within this extremely narrow range.

    There are no other possible values within a /8192, /16384, or /32768 system... but....
    If M value is as crazy as a /65536 number, then it could still only be either:
    - 150704/65536 (2.2995605469) -- 9419/4096
    - 150705/65536 (2.2995758057) -- barely inside the range, and could probably be ruled out with further tests

    The test I did to find this out was with dINT+227 and dINT+237

    For dINT+227, the correct answer ingame = V + 522
    For dINT+237, the correct answer ingame = V + 544

    227 * 9419/4096 = 522.0002441406
    237 * 9419/4096 = 544.9958496094

    If the M value is even slightly lower or a little higher, it could result in the wrong answer for one of them.

    So...
    522 / 227 = 2.29955947136564 -- the lowest possible value which would pass dINT+227
    545 / 237 = 2.29957805907173 -- the lowest possible value which would fail dINT+237, by being too high

    Put simply:

    The M value for Thunder 5 is 9419/4096.


    Edit:
    From dINT+1 to dINT+998...
    To test the lower limit to the range, dINT+227 is the best test to find the lowest possible value.
    To test the upper limit to the range, dINT+237 wasn't the best test. dINT+918 would narrow it down the furthest -- to 2.2995642702 as being to high.

    For the dINT+918 test, if /4096 is accurate enough, the answer will be V + 2110
    If /4096 isn't accurate enough, the answer will be: V + 2111
    If the dINT+918 test passes, then 9419/4096 will work 100% for any dINT from +1 to +998.

    I haven't found a mob in abyssea with 81 INT (or 90, 92 or 94 INT with -9/-11/-13 INT burn) to test this on tonight though.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radec View Post
    Strange results, in light of -V spell multiplier being 2.2995-2.2999 - aja spells and impact actually use 2.3, when compared to 2.299_

    Also: Aeroja is not a 2.333 multiplier, but the V value is 848 (not 844 from wiki). Impact is V = 943.

    Tests:
    Aeroja - +50MAB, using V = 848
    Code:
    dINT   DMG
    118    1678
    119    1681
    120    1686
    M=2.2990-2.2999 would give 1684 for dINT=120
    M=2.333 would give 1684 1687 1690 for the 3 dINTs shown.
    Going back through the thread and noticed this post and I have data to add to the tests:

    Code:
    Starter mobs burned down to 1 INT.
    
    MAB: 40 traits + 10 gear
    INT107		Aeroja = 1636
    INT107+1	Aeroja = 1639
    INT107+3	Aeroja = 1647
    INT107+4	Aeroja = 1650
    INT107+8	Aeroja = 1665
    INT107+14	Aeroja = 1686
    INT107+21	Aeroja = 1710
    INT107+29	Aeroja = 1738
    INT107+36	Aeroja = 1762
    INT107+42	Aeroja = 1783
    INT107+47	Aeroja = 1801
    M = 7/3 or 2390/1024?
    V = 844

    M = 2.3 and V = 848 doesn't work for the INT107+1 test if I'm not mistaken.

    Feel free to retest if you want. A special M value just for aeroja seems odd.

  18. #38
    Hydra
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    Aeroja is definitely V = 844 as you say.

    The best way to test V values is to simply match your INT to the enemy's INT so that dINT = 0.
    This way it makes no difference if you don't have the M value for the spell.

    I usually test spells on worm family mobs as they have naturally high INT compared to other familys, making it easier for me, a Tarutaru, to match my high INT to theirs.
    They don't run after you, and they don't have MDB or anything like that.
    The only thing to watch out for is the occasional Stoneskin cast you can just dispel.

    Ectozoon near conflux 5 at Abyssea - Uleguerand are where I test spell V values and stuff.
    Their levels vary a little bit but they start around 105~106 INT, and I just equip INT +/- gear until my spells do their base dINT+0 V value damage.

    I'll try and find the exact M value tonight, down to /4096 accuracy, as that seems to be what Thunder V uses.

  19. #39

    I usually test spells on worm family mobs as they have naturally high INT compared to other familys, making it easier for me, a Tarutaru, to match my high INT to theirs.
    They don't run after you, and they don't have MDB or anything like that.
    The only thing to watch out for is the occasional Stoneskin cast you can just dispel.

    Ectozoon near conflux 5 at Abyssea - Uleguerand are where I test spell V values and stuff.
    Their levels vary a little bit but they start around 105~106 INT, and I just equip INT +/- gear until my spells do their base dINT+0 V value damage.
    Sorry, I don't really play anymore, so don't have too much to contribute, but I was reading this thread today because the question of these spells with M near 2.3 is an interesting puzzle. Anyway, I thought it might be worth mentioning that unless they changed it, some worms do have MDB, I think possibly corresponding to the MDB that RDMs get at their level. When we tested Magus Roll however long ago, the worms in Kuftal by the lake where people fished mantas had MDB+12, which I remember specifically because for whatever reason I too was under the misapprehension that they had no MDB, and it forced us to retest a few times after working out the inconsistencies caused by it.

    Anyway, maybe they changed it or maybe some worms are different, but it might be worth verifying.

  20. #40
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    You're right. I'm wondering why I think worms have no MDB too now.
    I mean they cast Stoneskin, so surely they have the MDB trait from /rdm.

    I spent a lot of time testing on them, but that was a few weeks ago.
    I can't see how I didn't notice if indeed they actually do have MDB, as it should have been really obvious and messed my results up a lot, but I'm worried now lol :D


    Edit:
    Alright... these tests are on an Entozoon which I believe to have 106 INT.

    Spell used = Blizzard 3 -- V=320 M=1.5

    INT:113-7 (106), MAB:1.5 -- damage = 480 (320 x 1.5)
    INT:113+112 (225), MAB:1.5 -- damage = 747

    225 - 106 = 119 -- this is the amount of INT added.
    119 * M (1.5) = 178.5
    178 * MAB (1.5) = 267

    747 - 480 = 267

    So these worms have no MDB. If some worms do, they probably have RDM as a main job instead of BLM.
    Most of my old tests on these worms were done on SCH, which has no MAB. So with dINT=0 the damage is the spell's V value.
    MDB would have been very easy to spot. I should have saved myself some time and just looked at my previous tests.