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  1. #61
    Hydra
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    OK, for SCH99, +9% MB Bonus from trait (MB Bonus III) has been working fine if you add it as a separate term.

    I noticed afterwards that the Magic Burst Bonus page also implies it's not in the same term:

    "Shares a term with equipment that enhances magic bursts, like Sorcerer's Gloves +1 and Static Earring"

    So this has voided my MB Bonus > Klimaform test, those two could be around the opposite way...

    I had tested the following to be true already though:
    Code:
    Resist > MB Bonus  -- on SAM99/sch49
    Resist > Klimaform
    Resist > Day + Weather
    MB Bonus > Day + Weather  -- on SAM99/sch49
    Klimaform > Day + Weather
    
    This means only MB Bonus > Klimaform is affected, so...
    
    Resist > MB Bonus <> Klimaform > Day + Weather
    I don't know if I should really be referring to the MB term as "MB Bonus" now, as the Calculating Magic Damage page seems to call it "Magic Burst"
    "Magic Burst Bonus" on that page is used as the name for the term with MB Bonus trait and gear.

    However, otherwiki calls the MB term "Magic Burst Bonus", with seperate terms for each gear named "Magic Burst Bonus Gear #1", etc.
    So it's ambiguous and confusing at the moment...

    I'll try and find the exact level that SCH gets MB Bonus III (+9%), and also whether the trait is definitely calculated after MB, and if in the same term as equipment.

    Edit:
    OK, If a 2 WS Skill Chain MB is +30%, and if SCH99 has MB Bonus III job trait giving +9%...
    Just editing separate terms into my previous tests shows that "Magic Burst" is calculated before "Klimaform Bonus".

    I still need to test where "MB Bonus trait" is applied though...
    Here's a test which should pretty much determine it instantly:
    Code:
    D value = 318
    
    Example: 
    dINT = 55 (eg. cINT=110 vs. tINT=55 Pachypodium)
    Spell = Water III  (V=236, M=1.5)
    
    A -- "Magic Burst" = 1.3
    B -- "MB Bonus trait" = 1.09
    C -- "Klimaform Bonus" = 1.1
    
    For this there's 6 different possible calculation order combinations:
    
    A > B > C  = 495
    A > C > B  = 494
    B > A > C  = 493
    B > C > A  = 494  -- this order failed a previous test
    C > A > B  = 493  -- this order failed a previous test
    C > B > A  = 494  -- this order failed a previous test
    Hopefully the result will be 495, which would be nice and simple, and it also seems the most logical order for it to be anyway.
    I'll try to get round to testing it later.

    Edit:
    The result was 495 damage, so:
    Code:
    Magic Burst > MB Bonus trait > Klimaform Bonus
    With SCH98/SAM49, the MB Bonus trait is +7% (MB Bonus II), so SCH gets MB Bonus III at lv99.

    Edit:
    I did some testing with BLM AF2+1 hands and a Channeling Robe (I don't have anything else to test with...)
    It seems that all gear is added in with the MB Bonus job trait to the "MB Bonus" trait term.

    Channeling Robe = MB Bonus +2
    BLM AF2+1 hands = MB Bonus +5, as wiki says.
    BLM99 has MB Bonus V job trait, which is MB Bonus +13, as wiki says.

    This adds up to MB Bonus +20.
    So a two WS skill chain MB as BLM99 wearing those two pieces would be: floor(floor(...*1.3)*1.2)

    The full order of operations I have now is:
    Code:
    D > Cumulative magic bonus (Comet & -ja) > MTDR > Staff Bonus > Affinity > SDT - Resist > Magic Burst > MB Bonus (job trait + gear) > Klimaform Bonus > Day + Weather + Twilight Cape > MAB(+ M.Crit) / MDB > Goetia +2 Set Bonus > TMDA (damage taken- + mdt- /256) > Ebullience > Hpemde double damage taken > Phalanx > (Stoneskin remaining HP) > DMG

  2. #62
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    I don't know where the original number is from, but the value worked when I tested the value using BLU nukes (Can probably find within the Order of Operations data).

  3. #63
    Hydra
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    Yeah, I understand how the MB Bonus traits were calculated now.
    It just didn't seem very clear how it worked from reading either wiki's Calculating Magic Damage pages.
    Other people probably were adding it the way I was, which is probably why stuff like Channeling Robe gets listed as +3% on otherwiki, when it's easy to tell that it's +2%.

  4. #64
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    So wait, was I right or wrong when I said the MB bonus terms were added? In case you're wondering, most of the tests I did were listed on the talk page:
    https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Talk:Mag._Burst_Bonus

    PS. Check your PMs!

  5. #65
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    MB Bonus is not added to the MB term. MB Bonus is added to itself though (MB Bonus Total = MB Bonus 1 + MB Bonus 2).

  6. #66
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    Yeah, that's how I wrote it on the page.

    • 334/(232*1.3) = ~11%
    • 150/(104*1.3) = ~11%



    • 345/(229*1.3) = ~16% <-- Consistent with the +5 Magic Burst Bonus these items have been reputed to give for years.
    • 359/(229*1.3) = ~21% <-- Also Consistent

    etc.

  7. #67
    Hydra
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    Ah, that's a useful page, the MB Bonus talk page.
    I thought I'd seen those tests somewhere, that's what I was looking for.

    However, you need to do the reverse (or forwards) calculation after working out the percentages to see if they actually work.
    I'm assuming those numbers are the actual damage?
    If so, calculating MAB afterwards makes it slightly awkward to find the exact percentages.

    For example:
    Code:
    "334/(232*1.3) = ~11%"  -- 232 * 1.3 = 301.6... 301 * 1.11 = 334.11
    "150/(104*1.3) = ~11%"  -- 104 * 1.3 = 135.2... 135 * 1.11 = 149.85
    So the second test makes it look like it's not an exact whole number percentage...
    To get the correct answer you'd have to assume there was no MAB gear, use BLM84's MAB=36, and do the following for the second test:
    Code:
    104 / 1.36 = 76.470... rounded up =  77
    77 * 1.36 = 104.72  (the normal damage)
    77 * 1.3 = 100.1... 100 * 1.11 = 111... 111 * 1.36 = 150.96  (the MB damage)
    Edit:
    I went through all your tests on the MB Bonus talk page. wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Talk:Mag._Burst_Bonus
    Every one of them checked out perfectly after doing: D > Magic Burst > MB Bonus > MAB > DMG
    They all work fine with trait tiers being exactly +5, 7, 9, 11, 13, with sorcerers gloves & static earring being +5 each.

    I also went through the tests from 2006 on Nivlakian's talk page on otherwiki. (wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nivlakian#Magic_Bursts
    All of those also checked out fine doing: D > Magic Burst > MB Bonus > MAB > DMG

    I checked the history of the Calculating Magic Damage page on otherwiki: wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Magic_Damage
    Five years ago, after Nivlakian put his MB tests on his talk page, he added the following to the Calculating Magic Damage page:
    Code:
    ex. floor(floor(floor(floor(... * MB) * Sorc.Gloves) * St.Earring) * ...) -> floor(floor(floor(floor(... * 1.3) * 1.05) * 1.05) * ...)
    ...maybe that was possibly actually correct back then, but the following works perfectly for all those tests on his talk page...
    Code:
    floor(floor(...*Magic Burst)*MB Bonus)
    ...with each piece of gear(+trait+atma?) being added in the "MB Bonus" term, not each piece multiplied separately, unlike otherwiki says.

  8. #68
    Hydra
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    I don't know how commonly known this stuff is, but it is hard to find any information about it, so I'll just post it here.

    Code:
    Spell	V	M
    ---	---	---
    Dia	2	0
    Dia II	6	0
    Dia III 10	0
    
    Diaga	2	0
    
    Bio	10	0
    Bio II	50	0
    Bio III	100	0
    As far as I know, the initial damage from these spells are calculated the same way as an elemental or divine nuke.
    The difference is that dINT and dMND don't play any part in the D term for these spells, so the D term is a static value.

    The terms I've checked so far that definitely apply to these spells are:
    - MTDR (for Diaga)
    - Staff Bonus
    - Resist (seen 1/2 before, I think 1/4 too)
    - MAB
    - MDB
    - TMDA

    In the past I have used these spells to check if a target had any form of magic damage defence, but I forgot how useful they were till recently, especially now I can have Bio III merited on the test server.
    Bio III is very nice for finding enemy TMDA if you are level 86+, as Bio III will normally do 128 damage (100*1.28=128).
    If you know the mob only has MDT, you can just cast Bio III once, and the damage will show accurate to the nearest 1/128, what the /256 value is.
    You don't even need a calculator to figure it out.

    Because the calculation value is truncated after each term, Dia and Diaga can easily have an initial damage of 0, meaning the mob gains 0 TP instead of 10 TP.

    Example:
    Diaga, landing on 2 targets, caster wielding a Pluto's Staff
    = D * MTDR * Staff Bonus...
    = 2 * 0.8 = 1.6... 1 * 0.85 = 0.85...
    = 0 dmg.

    Dia 1 and Diaga are also very useful thanks to this truncation.
    They are useful if you are unsure whether the enemy has only one magic defence property (SDT, MDB or MDT), or if it's a combination of two of the terms.

    As long as you can be sure none of the possible reduction terms exceed -50% reductions, and no bonus terms are +50% bonus or more, then...
    2 dmg = no damage reduction terms
    1 dmg = one term
    0 dmg = two terms (or possibly more)

    However, you may need to cast a few times to make sure you didn't just get a resist...
    I haven't seen any testing done to determine whether the accuracy of Dia and Bio spells are based on a certain magic skill.
    Everyone just says they can't be resisted (fully resisted), which is the same as all the elemental and divine nukes...
    Maybe Dia accuracy uses Enfeebling magic skill, and Bio accuracy may use Dark magic skill ?

    I'm planning to check Dia and Bio with all the magic damage terms.

    I'm also interested in testing Kaustra, to see whether that spell is a really powerful Bio type spell (static D value?), or more like a really powerful helix spell.
    I want to check tier IV and V -aga elemental/divine nukes, Meteor, and other monster only spells too, but I don't think there's any mobs that can cast those spells right? only NMs?

  9. #69
    Theory Fighter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mougurijin View Post
    I'm also interested in testing Kaustra, to see whether that spell is a really powerful Bio type spell (static D value?), or more like a really powerful helix spell.
    I did some very simple tests, and from that and normal use it looks like it behaves somewhat like an Helix spell. I say somewhat because the DoT is per 3-seconds tick, and it is a fraction of the initial damage, around 1/3 (but this is the most obscure part).

    Problem is, whenever I think of testing it again, I realize that I'm not in the test server ;_;

  10. #70
    Hydra
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    I've tried testing Kaustra initial damage today, but it's not being very friendly at all...

    Kaustra's "D" value is definitely not static, but I don't know if it varies solely based on dINT.

    Kaustra's "V" value should be 244, but that depends if the D value actually behaves like black magic nukes, using only dINT * M...
    For dINT=0 though, as SCH99/whm49 with no MAB or anything, the damage was 244

    As for Kaustra's "M" value, most of the tests I've done on it so far have just produced nonsense results, where different dINTs require different M values between 3.4999 and 7... lol

    You can cast Kaustra without Dark or Light Arts active, so I set my Dark Magic skill to 0, hoping to see what effect it might have, but I didn't realise Tabula Rasa gives you the effect of having both arts active.
    If my Dark Magic skill is set to 0 as SCH99, with Tabula Rasa it becomes 370, and if my Dark Magic skill is 334 (capped) as SCH99, with Tabula Rasa it becomes 404.
    I was hoping to test with extreme values, but with 370 to 404 skill to begin with, it might be hard to determine how much effect (if any) Dark Magic skill may have...

    Another idea I have at the moment is that the MP used for the cast may play a part in the damage calculation somehow...

    Edit:
    My internet is barely working tonight, I'll leave testing this for another day, not sure if this edit will even send...
    The "V" value is almost certainly not 244 after all, but I couldn't really do any further testing with my internet not working :/

  11. #71

    Quote Originally Posted by Mougurijin View Post
    I also went through the tests from 2006 on Nivlakian's talk page on otherwiki. (wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nivlakian#Magic_Bursts
    All of those also checked out fine doing: D > Magic Burst > MB Bonus > MAB > DMG

    I checked the history of the Calculating Magic Damage page on otherwiki: wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Magic_Damage
    Five years ago, after Nivlakian put his MB tests on his talk page, he added the following to the Calculating Magic Damage page:
    Code:
    ex. floor(floor(floor(floor(... * MB) * Sorc.Gloves) * St.Earring) * ...) -> floor(floor(floor(floor(... * 1.3) * 1.05) * 1.05) * ...)
    ...maybe that was possibly actually correct back then, but the following works perfectly for all those tests on his talk page...
    Code:
    floor(floor(...*Magic Burst)*MB Bonus)
    ...with each piece of gear(+trait+atma?) being added in the "MB Bonus" term, not each piece multiplied separately, unlike otherwiki says.
    When we first tested MB bonus, the only available enhancements were earring and gloves, and mistakenly concluded that it was 1.05 -> 1.05. After AMII came out, we tested again and discovered that there was an error in that initial conclusion, and that those two items (as well as the bonus from AMII) were combined additively in the order you've indicated above. I updated the BG-wiki Magic Damage page at the time, and made a note on the talk page, but not on the otherwiki page. From browsing threads in this section, this seems to have become the source of various points of confusion, for which I apologize.

  12. #72
    Hydra
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    Heh, I didn't think anyone would be able to reply to that last post.
    I guess I really do have to stop using Atma of the Apocalypse or Chainspell while testing magic damage then. :/
    One thing I did notice though was that the 3:18 Aero II actually landed before the 3:12 Fire II animation had completely finished, so there may have been some lag involved...

    Anyway, I'm done with the calculation order for a while now, and I'm hoping to figure out the remaining problems in the D term itself.

    I've nearly finished collecting all the V and M values for every Black Magic and White Magic damage spell.

    For V values, the only spell I can't really find out easily is Bio IV...
    I think only these two mobs can cast Bio IV -- Vrtra and Hadal Satiator ?
    Does anyone know if there are any other enemies that can cast it? Neither of those two will be easy to test solo...

    Kaustra doesn't seem to play the same way at all for the D term, so I'm leaving that spell for a while.

    As for M values, 1.0, 1.5, or 2.0 are the values for most spells.
    Tier-5 single target black magic nukes, -aja black magic nukes, Comet and Impact seem to be the only spells so far that don't use these simple values.

    There seems to be two more groups:
    M = ~2.299 -- Comet, Stone V, Water V, Fire V, Blizzard V, Thunder V, Stoneja, Waterja, Firaja, Blizzaja, Thundaja
    M = ~2.335 -- Impact, Aero V, Aeroja

    Most of this was already known anyway; I just wanted to give some background to the main point to this post, below.


    Now, within these two groups ~2.299 and ~2.335, some (all?) spells actually need different values to the other spells in the same group.
    As I showed on a previous page in this thread with Thunder 5 (here), the M values can get pretty ridiculously complex if you simply keep testing different dINTs and finding a value that still works.

    So now I need some different ideas to test instead.
    Here's a couple of the ones I'm planning to test:

    - Theory #1
    D = FLOOR(dINT * M1) * M2 + V

    - Theory #2
    D = FLOOR(dINT * M1 + V) * M2

    M1 = M
    M2 = a second multiplier value

    For Theory #2, the V values I have for dINT=0 would be incorrect, but lower V values would be found for the new formula.

    I've barely done any testing on either theory yet. These theories could have major flaws as to why they would never work still.

    Anyone else have any ideas?

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