A Song of Ice and Fire (Book discussion)

[Bweigelt]

In other news, ADWD is now finally complete so no chance of them missing the July 12th publication date.

[Darkmagi]

Not sure if posted yet, but it appears that GRRM has finally finished writing ADWD.

[aduidarnenye]

By off-stage I meant not central to the action. The action in that scene was Arya and the Night's Watch fellow. There was a scene of Ned in the dungeons being all self-pitying, and then suddenly the next time you heard about him, he was getting his head cut off.

Honestly, the first time I read the novel, like 13 years ago, I was so blown away by the audacity of the author killing off his "main character" halfway through the book that I was instantly hooked. I have simply felt, in subsequent readings, that it was pushed off stage to the main action.

Also, Robb and Catelyn were interesting, even if they weren't my favourites. So were Viserys, Joffery, and Cersei (who I suspect won't be alive much longer). Also killed off Khal Drogo and a bunch of Dothraki, then banished Ser Jorah to uselessness. Then he spent an entire book boring us with Brienne only to (possibly) hang her at the end.

I just feel that Martin's gone a bit kill crazy on his characters and he'll have no one left to fight the Others. Except Jaime who has redeemed himself. Which is odd considering all the terrible things he did while Cersei was unredeemable. Sexism!

[tyven]

Jaime gonna fucking kill everything and then him and Jon are gonna become gay lovers and rule together forever

[aduidarnenye]

Jaime gonna fucking kill everything and then him and Jon are gonna become gay lovers and rule together forever

Is there homosexuality in the books? I can't remember. I know that 'Wheel of Time' touches on lesbianism every now and then.

[Palin]

It's implied that Renly and Loras are gay lovers. GRRM has come out and confirmed it was his intention. I believe we'll see it on screen in the series.

[Penthesilea]

Dany and one of her handmaidens (Irhi sp???) too

[Sylvrdragon]

By off-stage I meant not central to the action. The action in that scene was Arya and the Night's Watch fellow. There was a scene of Ned in the dungeons being all self-pitying, and then suddenly the next time you heard about him, he was getting his head cut off.

Honestly, the first time I read the novel, like 13 years ago, I was so blown away by the audacity of the author killing off his "main character" halfway through the book that I was instantly hooked. I have simply felt, in subsequent readings, that it was pushed off stage to the main action.

Also, Robb and Catelyn were interesting, even if they weren't my favourites. So were Viserys, Joffery, and Cersei (who I suspect won't be alive much longer). Also killed off Khal Drogo and a bunch of Dothraki, then banished Ser Jorah to uselessness. Then he spent an entire book boring us with Brienne only to (possibly) hang her at the end.

I just feel that Martin's gone a bit kill crazy on his characters and he'll have no one left to fight the Others. Except Jaime who has redeemed himself. Which is odd considering all the terrible things he did while Cersei was unredeemable. Sexism!

That GRRM kills off his characters is one of the things I like the most about him. In such a huge, epic, dangerous fantasy world, it's too much of a stretch if everyone lives. Even minus the Fantasy aspects of this world, imagine just how easy it is to get killed.

Compared to modern medicine, they have next to nothing, so stuff that we would laugh off today could be fatal to them. They have no forensics, no cameras, and a tiny fraction of the population of a real-world modern urban area, so it isn't NEARLY as hard to get away with murder- which makes people more likely to try if they think they have reason. Add to that that their best means of communication takes days or weeks instead of minutes like we have, and it makes many local treacheries just that much more feasible.

Aside from all that, I would go so far as to say that GRRM wrote ASOIAF to more story-centric than character-centric. What I mean by that, is that I believe that once one of his characters play their part in the over-arching story, he doesn't need them anymore. In fact, I would wager that sometimes they would just get in the way if the let them live. Ned, I think, falls into this category. The first time I was reading GoT, I thought to myself that Ned is too smart and too wise, and learned too much too early to be good for the series. If he had managed to spread what he knew far and wide and deposed Cersei/Joffrey, then the series would have been half over right then and there.

It's a wonder that so many "main" characters are still alive.

[Amiricle]

I just feel that Martin's gone a bit kill crazy on his characters and he'll have no one left to fight the Others. Except Jaime who has redeemed himself. Which is odd considering all the terrible things he did while Cersei was unredeemable. Sexism!

Stannis, with his witch and a small army have set up camp up there too. Plus theres Brans expedition which is for who knows what, and I imagine Rickon will turn out to be some sort of wild card.

Also I imagine that may be the point. When Dany crosses the sea, Westros will be in a crossfire of 2 forces. Fire from the south and Ice from the north.

[Qalbert]

Speaking of Bran and wildcards, any theories on who/what Coldhands is? and maybe related, I'm hoping that Benjen is still out there somewhere, since I don't remember him/body being found.

[Doombear]

Speaking of Rickon... where the shit? I just finished re-reading book 4. Did I miss something? Where the fuck he at? Oh shi, nevermind. I remember now. Osha (i always read that as OSHA...) has him.

Is there homosexuality in the books? I can't remember. I know that 'Wheel of Time' touches on lesbianism every now and then.

There was Cersei's/Taena's moment as well.

[Sylvrdragon]

Speaking of Bran and wildcards, any theories on who/what Coldhands is? and maybe related, I'm hoping that Benjen is still out there somewhere, since I don't remember him/body being found.

There aren't any really good theories about who Coldhands is, though the consensus is that he likely has something to do with the Children of the Forest. Some say he's some random Night's Watchmen, others say he's Benjen Stark, whiles still others think he might be the "Last Hero" mentioned somewhere in GoT (The source cited is "I: 203" at Westeros.org, but if 203 is a page number, then it doesn't correspond with my paperback copy (Found it, page 241 US Paperback edition). "I" is obviously roman numeral for book 1).

Here's a link to the FAQ that has a ton of the questions people have thought to ask over the years: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/

[Bweigelt]

Speaking of Bran and wildcards, any theories on who/what Coldhands is? and maybe related, I'm hoping that Benjen is still out there somewhere, since I don't remember him/body being found.

There are several theories. One is that he's Benjen, another that's it's Benjen's body possessed by one of the Greenseers (Children of the Forest dudes) another is that he's Bloodraven, the former Lord Captain of the nights watch who was an Albino.

[Rulke]

Speaking of Rickon... where the shit? I just finished re-reading book 4. Did I miss something? Where the fuck he at? Oh shi, nevermind. I remember now. Osha (i always read that as OSHA...) has him.



There was Cersei's/Taena's moment as well.

Ive been wondering if we will ever see Rickon as a POV character and if he will emerge as another "main stay" character. I often wonder if he's being set up as the next Lord of Winterfell seeing as the status of the other Stark kids has them set up for greater/different things (cept Sasna... but we'll see)

[Bweigelt]

It's suspected that we may get some Rickon screen time (page time?) from Davos POV chapters in ADWD as Rickon and Osha were heading to White Harbor and Davos is supposed to be there as well.

[Doombear]

I like this a whole lot. Wonder if we see translated releases...

Game of Thrones Manga

[Qalbert]

I'm reading that as just covers for the JP books, not a series, not sure if that's right.

[Doombear]

Ah yes you are absolutely correct. They are covers for the Japanese versions of the books, not manga versions of the books. Got it. Am I crazy for wanting them still? They are all amazing, but the Storm of Swords covers by Yasushi Suzuki are definitely my favorites.

[-Zer0-]

Oshi-, I'd seen the artwork before but didn't know they were for Japanese covers to the series.

[Andalusian girls]

i like catelyn

Ned and Robb aren't necessarily politically stupid. Ned is just a self-righteous and honor-bound, both of which are his strengths as much as his weaknesses. Robb is shown to be rather prodigious politically, he just falls prey to being 15-16 years old.

Catelyn's mistakes tend to be bigger and more numerous.

Spoiler: show

She urged Robb to give Roose Bolton command of his second host, correct, but that certainly wasn't a sound decision. Not only was Bolton defeated by Tywin Lannister when they met, but his command over a significant portion of Robb's army also allowed him to more easily betray Robb later on (so it very well may have turned out better if the Greatjon had leadership instead). Bolton's taking of Harrenhal was largely Arya's doing, not his own.

Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion expedited the enmity between the Starks and Lannisters and led to Ned's escort being butchered and his leg being broken. She may have urged Stannis and Renly to parlay, but it didn't exactly work out. In fact, if I recall (I could be wrong), Melisandre later says to Davos that she didn't need close proximity to Renly to cast her spell because she had met him during the parlay.

Let's not even get into her vile and contemptuous treatment of Jon Snow.

she does Jon dirty no doubt about it

but as to her political acumen

Spoiler: show

Tywin's plan of battle was to have the North overcommit against Tyrion's riders at which point he would flank them, Bolton was more cautious and did not do this, a mistake the Greatjon likely would have leading to the destruction of the army. I don't think giving Roose control of a part of the army had anything to do with the betrayal. Bolton smelled weakness and likely would have changed colors if he had 50 or 5000 men once Robb lost the North and the Karstarks, and the Freys were plotting their treachery.

The parlay didn't work, but that failing is Renly's arrogance and vanity, and Stannis's intransigence; the advise she gives and actions she favors are sound.

Which is the thrust of my defense of Catelyn, the basic argument is she is the reason we cannot have nice things; all the failings of those around her are pinned on her. The Red Wedding is brought about by Robb's actions, Stannis + Renly failing to unite is entirely due to their own failings and the sole reason Lannisters still sit The Iron Throne, she would have prevented the loss of the North by keeping Theon, she would have kept Tyrion hostage if her sister had heeded her advise.

And Catelyn's notion of peace may well have been a good one, Robb had no right to a crown and his own father recognized Stannis's succession. The war he fought brought ruin to the north and was based in a desire for vengeance.

Catelyn is widely regarded as a stupid bitch because she makes mistakes for love while the males around her are regarded as great men because they make mistakes for honor, but I don't see how her mistakes are any greater or more frequent than Robb's or Ned's.