A Song of Ice and Fire (Book discussion)

[Caiyuo]

i like catelyn



she does Jon dirty no doubt about it

but as to her political acumen

Spoiler: show

Tywin's plan of battle was to have the North overcommit against Tyrion's riders at which point he would flank them, Bolton was more cautious and did not do this, a mistake the Greatjon likely would have leading to the destruction of the army. I don't think giving Roose control of a part of the army had anything to do with the betrayal. Bolton smelled weakness and likely would have changed colors if he had 50 or 5000 men once Robb lost the North and the Karstarks, and the Freys were plotting their treachery.

The parlay didn't work, but that failing is Renly's arrogance and vanity, and Stannis's intransigence; the advise she gives and actions she favors are sound.

Which is the thrust of my defense of Catelyn, the basic argument is she is the reason we cannot have nice things; all the failings of those around her are pinned on her. The Red Wedding is brought about by Robb's actions, Stannis + Renly failing to unite is entirely due to their own failings and the sole reason Lannisters still sit The Iron Throne, she would have prevented the loss of the North by keeping Theon, she would have kept Tyrion hostage if her sister had heeded her advise.

And Catelyn's notion of peace may well have been a good one, Robb had no right to a crown and his own father recognized Stannis's succession. The war he fought brought ruin to the north and was based in a desire for vengeance.

Catelyn is widely regarded as a stupid bitch because she makes mistakes for love while the males around her are regarded as great men because they make mistakes for honor, but I don't see how her mistakes are any greater or more frequent than Robb's or Ned's.

FFF quoting spoilers, the ultimate sabotage. But yeah, thus far I haven't really disliked Catelyn with the one exception of her being a huge bitch to Jon. I don't know if you mean in the sense of the overall story, assuming you're a book reader, but thus far I've been able to understand her mistakes given she's making some pretty bold fucking moves to oust the person behind her son's twice-attempted murder.

[EternityEnd]

i like catelyn



she does Jon dirty no doubt about it

but as to her political acumen

Spoiler: show

Tywin's plan of battle was to have the North overcommit against Tyrion's riders at which point he would flank them, Bolton was more cautious and did not do this, a mistake the Greatjon likely would have leading to the destruction of the army. I don't think giving Roose control of a part of the army had anything to do with the betrayal. Bolton smelled weakness and likely would have changed colors if he had 50 or 5000 men once Robb lost the North and the Karstarks, and the Freys were plotting their treachery.

The parlay didn't work, but that failing is Renly's arrogance and vanity, and Stannis's intransigence; the advise she gives and actions she favors are sound.

Which is the thrust of my defense of Catelyn, the basic argument is she is the reason we cannot have nice things; all the failings of those around her are pinned on her. The Red Wedding is brought about by Robb's actions, Stannis + Renly failing to unite is entirely due to their own failings and the sole reason Lannisters still sit The Iron Throne, she would have prevented the loss of the North by keeping Theon, she would have kept Tyrion hostage if her sister had heeded her advise.

And Catelyn's notion of peace may well have been a good one, Robb had no right to a crown and his own father recognized Stannis's succession. The war he fought brought ruin to the north and was based in a desire for vengeance.

Catelyn is widely regarded as a stupid bitch because she makes mistakes for love while the males around her are regarded as great men because they make mistakes for honor, but I don't see how her mistakes are any greater or more frequent than Robb's or Ned's.

BOOK

Spoiler: show

The Ironmen would have seized the North regardless of Theon's presence, as Theon notes that they're already massing their fleet when he arrives home. The Dreadfort and Ramsay Bolton would have still probably seized Winterfell. The Red Wedding was not solely Robb's fault--it's implied by Tywin (and everyone else) that the Freys' treacherous nature would've led to betrayal regardless.

[tyven]

hey, you know who doesn't make mistakes for love or honor? Jon F Snow, the F stands for fucking. He is pure hero mode at all times forever and always.

[Rhae]

You meant Bronn?

[tyven]

i think we all know that goes without saying.

[Andalusian girls]

Bronn does acquit himself beautifully throughout the series

hey, you know who doesn't make mistakes for love or honor? Jon F Snow, the F stands for fucking. He is pure hero mode at all times forever and always.

Spoiler: show

Jon forsakes his oath and tries to desert the night's watch for Robb/Ned's sake.

BOOK

Spoiler: show

The Ironmen would have seized the North regardless of Theon's presence, as Theon notes that they're already massing their fleet when he arrives home. The Dreadfort and Ramsay Bolton would have still probably seized Winterfell. The Red Wedding was not solely Robb's fault--it's implied by Tywin (and everyone else) that the Freys' treacherous nature would've led to betrayal regardless.

Spoiler: show

Theon sent ravens announcing his arrival home and it's never made clear whether Balon decided to mass his ships before or after realizing his son was coming home, Bolton may have been able to take it but who can say it was Theon's plan that tricked Ser Rodrick, and no obviously the Red Wedding is caused by the Freys and Roose and Tywin but it was Robb's mistakes that led to it, just as kidnapping the Imp was caused by Littlefinger's lies but it is still Cat's mistake.

[tyven]

BOOK TALK

Spoiler: show

Jon forsakes his oath and tries to desert the night's watch for Robb/Ned's sake.

Spoiler: show

and then he DOESN'T

[Andalusian girls]

CUZ OF HIS FRIENDS

[Qalbert]

FRIENDS HE CHOSE TO MAKE KNOWING HE MIGHT NEED THEM. WISDOM RIGHT THAR

[tyven]

FRIENDS HE CHOSE TO MAKE KNOWING HE MIGHT NEED THEM. WISDOM RIGHT THAR

fucking genius shit

[Tyche]

You guys normal discourse is walking a damn fine spoiler line. Unless only progressing through half the first book so far is tainting myself.

[Tyche]

Reason I decided to read the book was because I was tired of waiting from week to week to find out what happens lol

[Andalusian girls]

well that'll last you until July then get ready to wait half decade to half decade heh

[Qalbert]

Being the optimist that I am I am holding out hope that he meant it when he said book 5 was the hardest for him and that 6 and 7 would be out in a reasonable time.

[aduidarnenye]

well that'll last you until July then get ready to wait half decade to half decade heh

These big book fantasy series authors know that their nerdy fan base is willing to spend that amount of time arguing and theorizing about the next book. Martin always said he wasn't going to be like Jordan, until he was like Jordan.

[Bweigelt]

How has what Martin has done been like Jordan? Jordan's biggest problem was he kept putting out a new book every two years instead of taking his time and writing something good. Martin has been doing the opposite, and hopefully we will reap the rewards come July. The fact that Martin had ADWD almost completely written at the time AFFC was released and he chose to rewrite the whole book shows that he's more about putting out the best possible product rather than just putting out books for money.

[aduidarnenye]

How has what Martin has done been like Jordan? Jordan's biggest problem was he kept putting out a new book every two years instead of taking his time and writing something good. Martin has been doing the opposite, and hopefully we will reap the rewards come July. The fact that Martin had ADWD almost completely written at the time AFFC was released and he chose to rewrite the whole book shows that he's more about putting out the best possible product rather than just putting out books for money.

When he wrote the first two books he said that the entire series would be done in 2-3 more books when obviously it won't be. Jordan caught a lot of heat for his never ending series. Which I don't understand because I like having another book to read in the series.

[Rhyis.]

Jordan caught a lot of heat for his never ending series. Which I don't understand because I like having another book to read in the series.

Those books got stretched out because of the multitude of side characters that got brought in, and having each and every one of their stories become a focus. He could have finished the story ages ago imo.

[aduidarnenye]

Those books got stretched out because of the multitude of side characters that got brought in, and having each and every one of their stories become a focus. He could have finished the story ages ago imo.

Which is exactly what Martin did in the last two books of ASOAIF.

[Qalbert]

More so Crows than Swords. I haven't read Jordan at all, so I can't compare, but at least with Martin a lot of it seems to tie together, and has some overall importance, even if it is a "side character".