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  1. #201
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    TP's Effect On Crit Based WeaponSkills

    I finally got around to doing this test thanks to pchan arguing that TP only effects WeaponSkills at the 100:200:300 anchor points and not in between.

    Setup was Spharai 99MNK/SAM using Ascetic's Fury with RR,SS, and GH atmas, 5/5 crit+ merits and a Thaumas Hat. I also made sure to wear no multi-attack gear, so that WeaponSkills wouldn't be more than 2hits. Stats were 164STR and 140VIT, capped attack, and 447H2H skill. Target was Plateau Gliders in Abyssea- LaTheine.

    Crit Rate @ 100 TP= 5(base)+5(merits)+15(100TP Fury)+30(RR)+20(GH)+15(dDEX)+4(Thaumas)= 94% crit

    Fury@ 200TP gives 25% crit, so if TP effects crit rate from AF between anchor points, every 10TP should increase crit by 1%. If it doesn't change crit rate between 100TP and 199TP, crit rate should stay 94%.

    Ascetic's Fury WS Base Damage= [49(skill)+3+52+14(fSTR)+129(WSC)]*1(damage multiplier)= 247

    1hit non-crit max= 247*2.5(actually 2.48?, can't remember exact)= 617
    1hit crit low= 247*2.5(actually 2.52?, can't remember exact)*1.6(RR+SS)= 987

    2hit with at least 1 non-crit max= (247*3.15*1.6)+617= 1861
    2hit both crit low= 987*2= 1974

    Since the damage of a low-end 2hit Fury with both hits criticaling is higher than the max a 1crit 2hit Fury can do, I was fortunate enough to be able to count 2hit WSs towards my data.

    Also because this test is only to show that TP in between anchor points effects the crit scale of a WS, I used Ascetic's Fury anywhere between 170 and 190TP. While this would result in what I would expect to be higher than needed, or possible(101%-103%) effective crit rate, my test was meant to only disprove that crit rate would not be 94% and instead be capped at 100%.

    I did 75 Weapon Skills netting me 137 hits.

    13 1-hit Weapon Skills resulted in none lower than 1094 (ALL CRITS)
    62 2-hit Weapon Skills resulted in none lower than 2177 (ALL CRITS)

    The odds of hitting 137 crits in a row @ 94% crit rate is 0.0208217%.

    Conclusion: TP in between anchor points almost definitely effects crit rate. TP bonus equipment is useful.

  2. #202
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    JPs have Ascetic's Fury listed as 10%/20%/40%, went out and retested since it conflicted with my data. I got a non-crit @300TP with 55%crit pre-WS so looks like my numbers were probably all off by 5%. Looking back over my notes on testing, I had written down that I had come to all these results with 0 crit merits. I have a bad feeling that when I dropped my merits on test server from 5>0 I may have accidentally dropped enemy crit and not player crit. It is either that which is more likely, or they ninja nerfed it in the few months between my testing and JP testing. Edited my original post with new numbers.

  3. #203
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    Proth couldn't even land his BLU spells on Lv1 mobs with ES. I'd be leaning more towards SE being garbage than a requirement for some sort of skill.
    ES probably doesn't do anything more for physical spells than it would for a violent flourish or a weapon skill. Has anyone ever tested if m.acc actually affects Violent Flourish? I have a sneaking suspicion that m.acc doesn't do shit for it and that it relies only on weapon skill level and then DNC main gets a bonus or something, with the only other modifier being AF2 body. Proc rate on Tourb/Bilge are probably a static% like WS bonus effects or something, or TP modifies accuracy(try testing with CA/Efflux, could be mistranslated as Duration varies with TP but might actually be chance varies with TP.) Would be similar to how Quadrastrike never crits except during CA or Efflux. The main draw of tourb/bilge are probably that they do decently high damage(2-3k with CAflux) are AoE and continue level 3 SC. The stat down effects are probably just added boon since we have so many other spells that lower def(Roar,Benthic).

    Proc rate of additional effects on BLU spells are probably something like an accuracy variable which is modified by the difference or ratio of BLU skill:mob's m.eva. Some spells probably have higher variables where the additional effect is high and some are lower. It could also be that some spells are reliant on blu skill for an additional effect the same as a paralyze or silence would be reliant on enfeebling skill, and other spells don't rely on blu skill for accuracy checks and have a base floored accuracy. Not sure if it's intentional for BLU to have such a low proc on Tourbillion. Part of me says it is only because it competes with Angon which needs merits, ammo($) and augmented AF2+2 to be 25% defense down, if a 5 min recast tourbillion had 33% defense down, it would undermine Angon's usefulness vs cost. Additionally, BLU has several other spells which lower defense which are less potent but far more accurate than Tourbillion which is probably what SE prefers BLU to use if they need a reliable def down and there isn't a DRG or RDM around.

  4. #204
    Ridill
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    Theres some testing on flourish somewhere in here the links are on the bgwiki page though. As far as your thoughts on the draw of them... that's not what I'd call decently high dmg with CAflux or an aoe spell and kinda meh for continuing 3 especially when you tie all those spells plus more useful ones to a single 5 minute timer. Plus if that was just a bonus then why make the amounts so much higher than previous spells?

    Also could swear I've seen some testing on additional effects acc being like normal macc. Skill macc and maybe a stat vs mob meva to that spell/element/status. Theres a spot somewhere in the official forums where they pretty much say yeah it's low proc is intentional along with a couple of other spells. Agnon would still be useful as fully merited 2 drgs could keep it up 100% of the time always (minus death or anmesia) while blu well 5 minute timer probably crappy duration possible partial resists or full resist... plus I mean if you want to use the merit vs not arugment look at slow vs elegy. Yeah you can do both I know but still look at 1 where fully merited and geared rdm will still do less than an unmerited naked brd/blm.

    I still want to know why even bother putting the text on there if it's pretty much unlandable on most mobs.

  5. #205
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    Yeah you can do both I know but still look at 1 where fully merited and geared rdm will still do less than an unmerited naked brd/blm.
    Pretty much this. They stack and more things are immune/Resistant to Elegy than are immune to slow.

  6. #206
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    Went to test Level Correction on RNG using Split Shot(Ignores Defense), so I could effectively cap attack during WS. Interesting thing is both @ 200TP(-35% Def) and @ 300TP(-50% Def) my numbers were not what I expected.

    I had 218 WSD from, weapon (57)+bullet (105) + fstr2 (28)+WSC(28@111 AGI). Was expecting to see either 621 or 623 damage depending on if level correction is -.025 or -36/256 on a level 105 mourning crawler.

    @300 TP I got 654(4 times) and 699(1 time). 654 is 3.0 and 699 is 3.0*1.07(true shot bonus).
    @200 TP I also got 654 damage.

    So....WTF why am I getting a full 3.0 cRatio on a level 105 enemy?? Perhaps maybe ignores defense WSs actually ignore Level difference? I unfortunately don't have empyreal arrow or detonator so I can't use either of them to boost attack enough to cap.

  7. #207
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    Now that I've returned to the game, I'd like to test one of the things that I left pending, that is, the complete stats of Stringing Pummel. I'm going to assume we kno absolutely NOTHING about the WS other than its mods are STR and VIT, that it is crit-based, and that it is a 6-hit WS. My goal is to determine the rest, but I'd like some pointers, or a small guide, or something like that, from veteran testers that know the process well to make an accurate testing.

    What should I check first? First hit fTP? The % of the STR and VIT mods? Crit rate? Whether it has a attack penalty or not, and where?

    My guess is that the correct order is the same as the order in which I've asked the questions, but there's still so much I need to know, such as which mobs should I use to test, etc.

  8. #208
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    Isn't Stringing Pummel simply 32Str/32Vit 0.5ftp 35% crit rate @100%? Did you just want to confirm those stats?

  9. #209
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    No, it definitely isn't. That's what previous testing has claimed (except its 0.75ftp), but parsing shows it does way less damage than those numbers would create. Either mistakes were made when testing it before, or there's something weird about the WS (crit bonus only applying to first hit or something like that).

  10. #210
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    The 32/32 part is probably correct, and the fTP too. Byrth did test the crit rate and it's probably around 35%, as you say. The problem is, with those stats, it should consistently outperform Shijin Spiral in most if not all the situations, and my own experience, with extensive parses on Dynamis and good, but not extensive, evidence in VW, along with the testimonials of other players, implies that there's something there that makes it underperform. Maybe it's an attack penalty, because otherwise it should beat SS, or maybe all the hits are modded by the fTP, or what do I know. That's why I want to test it, although maybr starting from scratch is not the best of ideas.

    Any suggestions? I guess I could start by consolidating the crit data, that seems easy enough.

  11. #211
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    Sorry, I saw this yesterday but didn't have time to reply and then it wasn't dark blue anymore so I forgot about it. The OP has a good description of how to "Calculate weapon skill stats" (Modifier and fTP), with the qualification that gorgets are +25/256 instead of +0.1. Also, it uses Pyrrhic Kleos with the wrong modifiers as an example.

    This page describes how to test critical hit rate: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Critical_...tical_Hit_Rate
    Additionally, I would recommend pumping up your VIT and STR if you do it in Abyssea, and maybe your attack too. Use Gorget/Belt to increase your first-hit damage. If you are going to use EM Bluffalo, keep your attack below 820 but get as close to it as you can.

    I reinterpreted my results on a potential attack bonus/penalty recently: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Talk:Stringing_Pummel
    If there is a penalty, the maximum penalty would be 11% assuming the modifiers and fTP were correct.
    Edit: After doing the math again, I'm coming out with a 0% maximum penalty:
    * 377 to 466 range for the first hit with 136 STR, 169 VIT, 409 H2H skill, and no Gorget/Belt against EM Bluffalo
    * FLOOR(409*.11,1)+3 = 47 weapon-less damage
    * Kenkonken 99 = 41 weapon damage
    * FLOOR(FLOOR( (136+169)*.32,1)*.85,1) = 82 base damage from modifiers
    * 136-118 = 18 dSTR = 5 fSTR
    * 47+41+82+5 = 175 base damage during WS

    175*(1.3 - 0.14 Critical Attack Bonus - Critical Defense Bonus )*(1.3 Level 99 Mythic WS Bonus)*(.75 first hit fTP) = 197.925 pre-pDIF damage.
    377/197.925 = 1.904... minimum pDIF = 2.3 maximum wRatio (crit) = 1.3 maximum cRatio (removed crit and no level correction)
    466/193.925 = 2.354... maximum pDIF = 1.979... minimum wRatio (crit) = 0.9794 minimum cRatio (removed crit and no level correction)
    Multiply the above two numbers by 516/507 (the attack Ratio) and you end up with a range of 0.9968~1.323 potential attack modifiers.

    Despite this range seeming to suggest an attack boost, you have to remember that I was singling these Bluffalo out for one-hit KOs and in order to decrease my upper limit there I would have needed to take a Bluffalo to < 377 HP and then also hit < 377 HP. The first of those things is not very easy to do with H2H (mandatory multiple hits per round) and the second is just probability. At the same time, it is worth noting that I cannot tell the difference between whiffing my main hand and only connecting with the offhand (1.0 fTP assumed), in which case the lower limit would be artificially depressed by values 4/3 as strong as normal. This is why I got angry at the WS and quit testing it.



    I definitely agree that it underperforms its stats and I can't say for sure why. For some perspective, Stringing Pummel on paper with 135 STR and 169 VIT (Mounted Champion and Cruor buffs) against an EM Bluffalo should do as much damage on average as Victory Smite with 235 STR (full STR Atma?) without factoring in the supposedly higher crit rate of Stringing Pummel. In practice, PUPs claim there's very little difference between the two WSs.


    Perhaps it is worthwhile to force a 100% crit rate and check how the average damage is affected by wearing a Gorget/belt in Abyssea. If there's almost no change, then it's normal. If there's a big change, then it's potentially replicating? If it was replicating, fTP without gorget/belt would drop to 4.5 and Victory Smite would pull approximately even with the WS (before gorget/belt).

  12. #212
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    Thanks Byrth, and sorry for not noticing the info in the OP. I'd swear it wasn't there lat time I checked, but I just probably saw it and forgot it was there. I'll test it from the beginning, if only to confirm what we know, and then I'll try to understand why does it underperform.

  13. #213
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    552 Attack, 170 STR, 345 DEX in Abyssea vs. EM Bluffalo mainhanding a 99 Twashtar (D55) and offhanding a TP Bonus +100 Centovente (D42). I was using Razed Ruins, Omnipotent, Sanguine Scythe with:

    Twashtar/Centovente/____/Charis
    Skadi +1/Nefarious/Suppa/Brutal
    Athos's/Skadi +1/Thundersoul/Rajas
    Rancorous/Twilight/Athos's/Charis+2

    14% Crit damage, +14% crit rate including set bonuses

    This should give me +71% crit damage total (subtracting out Bluffalo 14% crit defense bonus) and a 69% crit rate.

    Spoiler: show
    Code:
    Byrth
      Melee
             43:    2
             44:    4
             45:    5
             46:    7
             47:    4
             48:    2
             49:    4
             50:    1
             51:    3
             52:    5
             53:    2
             54:   25
             55:   21
             56:   20
             57:    3
             58:    3
             59:    5
             60:    7
             61:    7
             62:    5
             63:    4
             64:    6
             65:    3
             66:    5
             67:    7
     ^       68:    4
    +        69:   28
             70:   22
             71:   24
             72:   19
             73:    5
             74:    6
             75:    3
             76:    1
             77:    2
             78:    3
             79:    3
             80:    2
             81:    6
             82:    1
             83:    2
             84:    3
             85:    5
             86:    1
             87:    2
             88:    3
             89:    5
             90:    5
             91:    2
             92:    1
             93:    2
             94:    1
             96:    1
             97:    2
      Melee Crits
            152:    2
            153:    2
            155:    5
            157:    9
            159:   16
            160:    6
            162:    9
            164:    5
            165:    9
            167:   12
            169:    4
            171:    8
            172:   10
            174:    5
            176:    6
            177:    7
            179:   10
            181:    8
            182:    9
            184:   10
            186:   13
            188:   11
            189:    8
            191:    7
            193:   10
            194:   10
            196:   13
            198:   14
            200:   16
            201:   11
            203:   18
            205:   11
            206:   22
            208:   11
            210:   14
            212:   10
            213:   11
            215:   15
            217:   20
     ^      218:    8
            220:   18
    +       222:   24
            224:   15
            225:   16
            227:   10
            229:   20
            230:    7
            232:    8
            234:   10
            235:    8
            237:    7
            239:   11
            241:    4
            242:    9
            244:    9
            246:    7
            247:    3
            249:    7
            251:    8
            253:   11
            254:    9
            256:   10
            258:    8
            259:   10
            261:    9
            263:    8
            265:    6
            266:    9
            268:    9
            270:   13
            271:    8
            273:    6
            275:    6
            277:    4
            278:    5
            280:    5
            282:    9
            283:    8
            285:    4
            287:    3
            288:    9
            290:    6
            292:    3
            294:    2
            295:    3
            297:    4
            299:    1
      Counters
    +        70:    1
    +        71:    1
    +        94:    1
    +^      200:    1
    +       230:    1
    +       246:    1
    +       271:    1
      Ability
        Violent Flourish
    +        63:    1
    +^       69:    1
    +        70:    1
      Weaponskills
        Evisceration
            451:    1
            453:    1
            466:    1
            514:    1
            516:    1
            519:    1
            524:    1
    +       526:    2
            540:    1
            545:    1
            550:    1
            554:    1
            560:    1
     ^      562:    1
            595:    1
            615:    1
    +       617:    2
            622:    1
            624:    1
            627:    1
            630:    1
            636:    1
            649:    1
            651:    1
            656:    1
           1124:    1
           3585:    1
        Pyrrhic Kleos
    +^      287:    1



    If I am using the formulas here correctly: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/PDIF

    Then:
    cRatio = 552/516 - 0 = 1.0697...
    wRatio = 1.0697... + 1 = 2.0697...

    UL = (2.0697... + .375)*1.05 = 2.567...
    LL = 2.0697... * 1176/1024 - 755/1024 = 1.639...

    Upper melee Crit damage should be FLOOR( FLOOR(2.567...*(55 base + 14 fSTR)) * 1.71 ) = 302 (299 observed)
    Lower melee Crit damage should be FLOOR(FLOOR(1.639...*(42 base + 12 fSTR)) * 1.71 ) = 150 (152 observed)

    Evisceration should get 87 base damage from my DEX, which would give me a total D of 156. Using the same equations:
    Upper Evisc crit damage = 684 (656 observed)
    Lower Evisc crit damage = 436 (451 observed)

    So if Evisceration has an attack bonus or penalty, it does a good job hiding it.



    It is a little hard to analyze my TP returns for this because I did it on Dancer with Conserve TP:
    Code:
    Weaponskill/TP Rates
    
    Total Weaponskills
    
    Player               Weaponskills    Avg Interval
    Byrth                          30            2:45
    
    
    Melee
    
    Player                 Total Hits    Min    Max     Mean    Median    Mode
    Byrth                        1118     10     77    37.27        34      34
    
    
    TP Returns for Byrth
    
    Echo format: "/echo KParser: TP return = <tp>" or "/echo KParser: <tp> WS TP"
    
    Evisceration
    
    Average recorded TP return: 19.28
    
    Data by TP return (-1 is invalid or missing echo data):
    
    TP    Count      Freq %    Total WS Dmg    Min WS Dmg    Max WS Dmg    Avg WS Dmg
    5        15     51.72 %            8481           453           651        565.40
    8         1      3.45 %             617           617           617        617.00
    10        1      3.45 %             617           617           617        617.00
    12        2      6.90 %            1780           656          1124        890.00
    14        2      6.90 %            4036           451          3585       2018.00
    21        3     10.34 %            1693           526           622        564.33
    24        2      6.90 %            1141           526           615        570.50
    100       1      3.45 %             554           554           554        554.00
    101       1      3.45 %             595           595           595        595.00
    102       1      3.45 %             540           540           540        540.00
    
    Pyrrhic Kleos
    
    Average recorded TP return: Unknown
    
    Data by TP return (-1 is invalid or missing echo data):
    
    TP    Count      Freq %    Total WS Dmg    Min WS Dmg    Max WS Dmg    Avg WS Dmg
    -1        1    100.00 %             287           287           287        287.00
    The range with TP return = 5 is comparable to what we'd expect, and none of the higher values are unreasonable given Conserve TP. I was getting 5.1 TP/hit, so the 10 TP return is the only one that could possibly be a combination of two hits instead of a Conserve TP proc. 8 could be a combination of four hits, but they'd all have to be non-crits so that seems unlikely. Noncrit damage on Evisceration under these conditions should range from 123 to 224 with the most common values being 156~163. The width of the range above is 248, so it could hide a non-crit. I need to repeat this test on Thief with more attack to really say anything strong about the crit rate, but 1 WS out of 27 potentially non-critting indicates that I was either crit rate capped or close, so I'd say ~30% crit rate for 200 TP.

    Edit:
    I didn't think of it earlier, but I was Banishing these Bluffalo to 1~2% with my WHM mule with shitty skill (for resists). If he didn't resist and did ~150+ damage, they would die. With the exception of the one WS I accidentally did at 13% (1000+ damage) and one I did just to bring the monster down faster (3000+ damage), all of the WSs were done under this condition and couldn't have involved multiple hits. Therefore, I have 27 single-hit WSs against EM Bluffalo and another 15 against DC/TBluffalo (42 total). None of them appear to be non-crits. Given the 40% point for 300TP, I'm going to take this as evidence of 30%. 25% is improbable, because it would give me a 94% crit rate with my build and there's only a 7.4% chance of 42 consecutive crits with a 94% crit rate. I'll probably go back and do it more thoroughly, but I'll still take this as evidence in support of +30% as the 200TP anchor point for Evisceration.

    Also, check out our new WS template!
    https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Evisceration
    </tp></tp>

  14. #214
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    That's a pretty impressive leap. ~5% crit rate bonus from Moonshade at ~100 TP, then?

  15. #215
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    Yep. It is quite a surprise to me. I controlled my TP so that it was 100-104 during the WSs (+100 from Centovente). I was aiming for 100-102, but sometimes I got hit an extra time. Now that I don't really need to confine my tests to EM monsters (because the attack bonus/penalty probably doesn't exist), I can crank out trials faster and might go back tonight.

  16. #216
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    Is there any reasonable way to test the crit rate of ws hits beyond the first? I was thinking the massive crit +% on stringing pummel might only apply on the first hit, since the ws performs so much worse in game (outside of aby) than it does on paper, but I have no idea how to test it.

  17. #217
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    Unfortunately there's really not, as far as I can tell. I tried to do some tests with Yagudo Heralds (get them to cast Utsu -> WS them) and got some very strange results. You might start testing there if you're interested, though. Otherwise the only option is to do a large sample size and isolate the cases where the first-hit misses.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by fantasticdan View Post
    Is there any reasonable way to test the crit rate of ws hits beyond the first? I was thinking the massive crit +% on stringing pummel might only apply on the first hit, since the ws performs so much worse in game (outside of aby) than it does on paper, but I have no idea how to test it.
    There are also no concrete mods for Stringing Pummel, and it has a first hit ftp of 0.75. This leads me to two possibilities that could explain its poor performance:

    1.) The currently expected mods are wrong or
    2.) fTP transfers over to additional hits

    The second possibility should be easy to test if no one has excluded it already, although it would be surprising.

  19. #219
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    It performs pretty well in aby in my experience thou, about as well as VS. That's why my guess was the crit rate. It's been a long time since I've played pup in aby thou, so I guess alternately, an update could have broken it between than and when merit WS came out.

    @byrth, what do you mean by strange results?

  20. #220
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    Lakshmi
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    If I:
    1) Build 300TP for Shark Bite
    2) Use Striking Flourish
    3) WS a Yagudo that has 1-2 shadows up
    Then the one hit that lands gives full TP and gives the full first-hit fTP boost for Shark Bite. It's like it's the first hit.

    ^ I'm pretty sure this was it, but it was so weird that I mostly just remembered "don't use Yagudo Ninjas for testing" and forgot the rest.

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