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Thread: Stats and how they work.     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #201
    Kaeko
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    Cross-post from Official Forums:

    Here's a more readable version of the table I posted this morning.

    http://t.imgbox.com/aayy8jDo.jpg

    I sense that there is likely a difference in methodology that leads to slightly different values. I produced this table using "rock throws" to find the lowest enmity values (Protect, Sanguine Rite, then a couple of the "19"s), then used these abilities to match hate. I assume that the JP testers used pure damage. Most of the values are either within the JP table or within the realm of reason (for instance, Flash and Voke are off, but look close).

    Couple of notes just eyeballing:

    (1) First Attack Bonus: I agree, when I tested this pre-1.20 this was the case as well. This differs from XI, which had a significant pulling bonus. Be aware that there is actually a tiny "bonus" for aggroing the mob though (1 damage worth).

    (2) Enmity Decrease over time?: Agree, there is no time-decay component of enmity. Again true pre-1.20. This was not the case in XI however.

    (3)Provoke on GLA vs. MAR?: I agree it was the same when I tested this patch, though our value for voke differs. However, the rank of the player matters significantly so it's more about having equal ranks as opposed to equal jobs.

    (6) Cure enmity: The blogger uses the 1.6 cure : 1 damage ratio whereas when I tested I merely inversed it. I got the modifier to be roughly 0.625 damage = 1 hp cured, which comes to the same thing.

    (12) Enmity from gear: When I tested this, it really threw me off because I thought I was going crazy seeing it do almost nothing. I actually wrote it off as broken, but then a member of my LS swears it makes an tangible difference so I thought there was a high probability of testing error. It's very nice to see he reaches near the same result (that gear enmity does almost nothing); however, I would not write off the use of this completely as we both reached this conclusion with similar testing methodologies and they BOTH may be flawed.

    (14) Hate Cap: obviously very important for endgame hate management but I have not looked at this in 1.20. In 1.18 I saw absolutely no evidence of a hate cap though, tested up to 30000+ damage worth.

    Enmity Table: most of my values are either 4, 19, 114, 55, 363, and then some oddballs. I think they mostly fit within the ranges the JP table has so I'm confident that they are in the right ballpark. However, the precision may not be up to the point as I had them in XI.

    **********

    Finally, I want to talk about the very adept poster who mentioned that these numbers do NOT seem to hold any weight on Ifrit fights, noting that a GLA can spam an initial flurry of actions and then have hate stolen in 1 THM combo. This was quickly noticed by my LS after we completed similar testing in 1.20 and we're honestly still lost on it.

    For Stan's explanation, I think it's fairly accurate in terms of #s, but I would just add that yes, the players that are hit by prism cure and rampart need to be on the hate list for the tank to get any benefit. So if you open with a prism cure and no one else has done anything yet, you waste it.

    But the reason I feel that something is off when trying to apply these hate studies to an Ifrit fight is you will often-times see a pickup group Ifrit fight go 10+ minutes and the tank will have been cured 50,000+ HP by a healer. If we convert this value to 'damage" with the 0.625 ratio, we get 31,250 damage. If you then take a look at the damage parser, you'll see THMs doing maybe upwards to 12,000-13,000 damage. Poll the players and the THMs are always the ones complaining about hate, not the healers. Shroud of Saints is only a temporary enmity decrease so it shouldn't alter the results. Also, the main tank in my LS swears enmity gear works and I have to say, eyeballing (as much as I hate using it to drive research) it it does seem to do something; however, from both my own and the JPs' tests, it should be near unnoticeable.

    I do think that the current look into the enmity system for XIV is probably only hitting the surface as we're missing at least 1 very large concept here (given that the "on paper" math does not translate to an actual endgame scenario). I am really excited to see others do enmity research though. Thanks to Stan for the awesome translation (and for Guildwork )

  2. #202
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    But the reason I feel that something is off when trying to apply these hate studies to an Ifrit fight is you will often-times see a pickup group Ifrit fight go 10+ minutes and the tank will have been cured 50,000+ HP by a healer. If we convert this value to 'damage" with the 0.625 ratio, we get 31,250 damage. If you then take a look at the damage parser, you'll see THMs doing maybe upwards to 12,000-13,000 damage. Poll the players and the THMs are always the ones complaining about hate, not the healers. Shroud of Saints is only a temporary enmity decrease so it shouldn't alter the results. Also, the main tank in my LS swears enmity gear works and I have to say, eyeballing (as much as I hate using it to drive research) it it does seem to do something; however, from both my own and the JPs' tests, it should be near unnoticeable.
    Honestly, the random theory I threw out there in the official forums (where certain spells/abilities will have their hate reduced by 1/5th during Ifrit because there's five targets in the battlefield despite four of them being untargetable for the majority of the fight) might hold some merit after all. I play CNJ a lot, and I've honestly never seen my hate go to yellow during an Ifrit fight. If we assume that Cure hate is reduced by 1/5th during Ifrit, it means that CNJs generate 6250 Enmity in your above example. This also means that because hate generated from Cures during the Ifrit fight is lower, it will better explain the reason why a single Thunder combo might pull hate off the tank early in the fight.

    To further argue my point above, I find that I pull hate from a tank much, much easier as a CNJ when fighting single-spawn world HNMs such as the Great Buffalo and several of the faction NMs compared to that of Ifrit (ignoring its hate reset, of course). I don't have hard data, of course, it's just it really feels this way.

    I will agree, however, that Enmity +/- equipments/materia do seem to have some hold on them after all, but it's frustrating because I can only come to that conclusion through eyeballing the fight too.

  3. #203
    Kaeko
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    Some of these points can be tested and affirmed or debunked rather easily. From the standpoint of testing strategy, I think discussion regarding possible reasons Ifrit is the way it is is the best thing to do right now - "eyeballing" and generating ideas if you will. The reason I had to hold off the testing is because I feel like we're clearly missing something big and may affect data gathering down the line if we don't pinpoint it first.

    To target your specific point on Ifrit regarding multiple mobs in the instance though... I feel like enmity generation would be really hard to get by cures in Moogle then, but prism curing is a fantastic way to seal hate in the moogle fight.

  4. #204
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    I suppose the best way then, at least in Ifrit's case, is for someone to go through the entire Ifrit fight, and not only record the fight itself but the entire battle log and reconstruct the (theoretical) enmity levels each players have from start to finish. And if possible, have the entire party record the fight to see where their enmity levels are (green, yellow, red, flashing red).

    Man...

  5. #205
    Kaeko
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    When I started testing enmity in XI, I remember it took me a week to figure out a concept as simple as pulling grants a hate bonus. The theory-crafting phase is infinitely more difficult than the # producing phase. Ashira still has bad memories of this being my test partner early on lol

  6. #206
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    elemental ws's seem to be unaffected by defense and are used constantly in fights like ifrit and moogle. Has anyone tried a magic evasion build? or just a plain evasion? Is it possible to evade magic based ws's or reduce their potency (i see the VIT seems to lower dmg from elemental ws's but not by much)? Not really looking for hard parse data but simple yes/no if you are pretty sure 1 way or the other.

    I'd test this myself probably after 1.21 though

  7. #207
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    The JP blogger who's done the enmity testing has some further testing here and here and has some interesting results for show. Because I'm lazy I'm just going to translate a quick summary of results.

    1.) Agroing doesn't cause enmity (note: according to his tests the target changed targets after doing 1 more damage than the other, and because if equal hate = targets whoever got target first, this means it doesn't cause hate. This seems strange as it contradicts Kaeko's earlier results, but eh...)

    2.) Chameleon reduces enmity by 760.

    3.) Nerve Drops reduces enmity by 190.

    4.) Enmity Bar Colors
    Green - 0%~
    Yellow - 50%~
    Red - 80%~
    Flashing Red - 100%

    5.) Cure enmity is reduced by half when fighting against two enemies.

    6.) Chameleon's enmity reduction is reduced by half when fighting against two enemies.

    7.) Chameleon's enmity reduction is reduced by half even when fighting two mobs which have linked but one of them hasn't turned red yet. (note: Unlike abilities such as Rampart which will make all the linked mobs turn red if you have hate on the primary mob, Chameleon doesn't do this)


    The Ifrit 'pillar' theory is becoming more and more likely, it seems.

  8. #208
    the whitest knight u' know
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    Bah, no wonder Chameleon sucks buttholes in the Moogle fight.

  9. #209
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    Nerve drops are targetted onto an enemy or self? I have used them before, but I forget...

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislaw View Post
    The JP blogger who's done the enmity testing has some further testing here and here and has some interesting results for show. Because I'm lazy I'm just going to translate a quick summary of results.

    1.) Agroing doesn't cause enmity (note: according to his tests the target changed targets after doing 1 more damage than the other, and because if equal hate = targets whoever got target first, this means it doesn't cause hate. This seems strange as it contradicts Kaeko's earlier results, but eh...)

    2.) Chameleon reduces enmity by 760.

    3.) Nerve Drops reduces enmity by 190.

    4.) Enmity Bar Colors
    Green - 0%~
    Yellow - 50%~
    Red - 80%~
    Flashing Red - 100%

    5.) Cure enmity is reduced by half when fighting against two enemies.

    6.) Chameleon's enmity reduction is reduced by half when fighting against two enemies.

    7.) Chameleon's enmity reduction is reduced by half even when fighting two mobs which have linked but one of them hasn't turned red yet. (note: Unlike abilities such as Rampart which will make all the linked mobs turn red if you have hate on the primary mob, Chameleon doesn't do this)


    The Ifrit 'pillar' theory is becoming more and more likely, it seems.
    When the pillars pop they dont have any enmity bar do they? This implies they are in the field of the instance but not 'aggroed' to anyone. It still seems like the most likely explanation though.

  11. #211
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    Yeah pillars have an enmity bar, green, yellow, red, flashing red, have seen all colors when killing one.

  12. #212
    Kaeko
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    I mean i don't recall there being an enmity bar right when they pop. You have to touch them before an enmity bar appears, meaning they pop without being on your hate list. This means for Stan's cure hypothesis to be true, cure enmity is being split due to pillars even though they are not on the hate list.

  13. #213
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    The simplest explanation, to me, would be that one or more of Ifrit's moves remove X (or X%) amount of enmity. Hyenas have that growl move that removes some (all?) of your enmity (Threatening Growl, I think?) so I know it can be done.

    Another suggestion, provided from a friend of mine, would be that there is a hate cap, but it works a bit differently than it did in XI. He told me about this a long time ago, so it's all a bit hazy, but I think it went something like this: When you reach the enmity cap, any further enmity gains are simply subtracted from everyone else's. P1 enmity: 10,000 P2 enmity: 9,300 P3 enmity: 200 P2 nukes for 1,200 damage, and new enmity values are P1: 9,500 P2: 10,000 P3: 0

    Another idea I just thought of after I hit post... Each monster has X amount of enmity, lets say 10,000. Once you breach the 10,000, the oldest actions which generated enmity are forgotten about. Fill the enmity bar like so: P1 does 2,000 enmity. P2 does 1,000 enmity. P3 does 1,000 enmity. P1 does 2,000 enmity. P2 does 1,000 enmity. P3 does 1,000 enmity. P1 does 2,000 enmity. Monster enmity is now capped with P1 at 6,000 enmity, P2 at 2,000, and P3 at 2,000. Any subsequent actions will replace the oldest enmity. P3 nukes for 2,002 enmity. Now the values are at P1: 4,000, P2: 1,998, and P3: 4,002. Suddenly, P3 has hate.

    Random ideas. /shrug Testing any of that would be a huge pain in the ass.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    Nerve drops are targetted onto an enemy or self? I have used them before, but I forget...
    You will have to target the enemy to use them. So in certain cases it might be more effective than Chameleon.

  15. #215
    Kaeko
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    MEVA testing:
    http://kanican.livejournal.com/55370.html

    Cross-posted from Lodestone Blog:
    http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cicuid=1882333

    Copy/Paste of results summary:


    (1) All magic spells and elemental based normal/TP attacks are subject to a MEVA check.

    The in game log currently will only openly notify you if a partial resist for magic spells. For elemental attacks and TP moves, you will only notice the damage reduction of the resist, but will not be notified of the resist in the log.

    (2) There are 3 "tiers" of resists, labeled in this post as "Single" (-25%), "Double" (-50%), and Triple (-75%)

    The game will only give you notice on magic spells that a resist occurs, but you will not be notified of exactly of the strength of the resist. There is no apparent -100% resistance tier with the exception of using "Decoy" and direct non-damage enfeebling spells like "Bio".

    (3) Elemental Resistances only affect direct damage taken and not MEVA or resist rate.

    There is a clear damage decrease when the correct elemental resistance gear is used on particular attacks, but not a change in the resist type rate. This is a completely seperate kind of testing that I did not really go into in this post beyond the fact that it does not have anything to do with MEVA.

    (4) The resist rates for elemental damage attacks (specifically Seismic Scream) is plotted and shown here. This plot can be used to estimate how potential reases and decreases in MEVA will affect resists. The plots requires that you have at least 1 data point to be useful on particular mobs. A brief table outlining a couple of mobs tested in this post is shown here as well.

    http://imgbox.com/aalxqDEo

    (5) There is no pre-mature resist rate floor or cap. You can potentially resist 100% or 0%.

    (6) "Status Resist" equipment gear like Aurelia's Kiss does not change duration or potency of enfeebles. There is a 1:1 ratio where 1 "status resist" gives 1 MEVA for that status ailment.

    Just to add clarify and emphasis, yes this does appear make MEVA the better stat since it adds global resistance as opposed to just resistance to a specific element. The amount of testing done on this is pretty small so I could be easily missing something but based on my tests, I don't see how this is useful, especially on head and feet pieces which can receive Manaflight materia.

    (7) Enfeebling spells (maybe all magic spells) have their own unique land rates for a given MEVA.

    This just means that if you resist say 50% of 1 spell at a particular MEVA, you may not resist 50% for all spells.

    (8) Enfeebling spells (e.g. Poison) likely only need to have any resist to fully resist. There is currently no such thing as a "partial resist" for enfeebles right now.

    (9) The "Magic Evasion Down" effect on R50 CNJ's Stone gave -29 MEVA on R40 Lemurs.


    This gives a rough estimate of the MEVA down effect for an R50. This value did not change with a +20 increase in enfeebling skill (+80 PIE). It could still change based on the mob's statistics or the CNJ's level though.

    Taking briefly about potential application of these results to in-game scenarios, I feel that stacking Manaflights and MEVA probably won't be too useful for high-end mobs like Ifrit. We can see that the MEVA to 100% "partial resists" even for the R30 Ifrit is extremely high and near unreachable currently without amazing triple socket gear at least. The R50 Ifrit would be pretty impossible to reach a decent resist rate on. However, for normal mobs in general instances like Darkhold, I can see a MEVA set being potentially useful, specifically for stopping enfeebles.

    We also talked about in the post turning around the MEVA plot and plotting for the opposite stat in magic accuracy. If we make the assumption that there is a direct 1 for 1 check between MACC and MEVA, we can get a plot like this:

    http://imgbox.com/aalxqDEo

    Ultimately, this may be the biggest "prize" piece of information coming out of this post due to the importance of avoiding resists for magic combos on mage jobs. Seeing how most endgame situations have mages fall between the -200 and 0 range on the plot, it shows how potential gear increases in MACC roughly correlate to gains in the land rate of spells.

  16. #216
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    It's not exactly stats, but I'd thought I throw this link here because the charts this person has in his lodestone entry is readable by the English-speaking audience as well.

    Materia Analytics II

    He also comes to the conclusion that lv50 equipments have a much higher chance at making a IV materia compared to that of a lv49 one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko View Post
    I mean i don't recall there being an enmity bar right when they pop. You have to touch them before an enmity bar appears, meaning they pop without being on your hate list. This means for Stan's cure hypothesis to be true, cure enmity is being split due to pillars even though they are not on the hate list.
    In some special cases, effects apply even when mobs are not on the hate list like Chameleon's case I pointed out above. Cue:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislaw View Post
    7.) Chameleon's enmity reduction is reduced by half even when fighting two mobs which have linked but one of them hasn't turned red yet. (note: Unlike abilities such as Rampart which will make all the linked mobs turn red if you have hate on the primary mob, Chameleon doesn't do this)
    So the 'pillar' theory assumes the same kind of thing is happening here, too.

  17. #217
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    Part III of testing:
    Physical Damage Taken (DEF and VIT)
    http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html

    - Done in collaboration with Seiken Valk (the guy that did the ARC/LNC stat testing)
    - Credit also given to Grain Malt for his initial testing and Stanislaw for his translation here on BG

    ****

    Copy/Paste summary of conclusions:

    (1) The amount of damage one takes can be summarized in the following formula:

    Physical Damage Taken = [ "Damage Taken at 0VIT/0DEF" ] - [dLVL modifier] * { [ DEF ] + 0.67 [ VIT ] }


    This formula tells us that for every 1 DEF we add, we get a static amount of damage reduction which is directly related to the dLVL of the mob we are getting hit by. This relationship between dLVL and the amount of damage reduction per +1 DEF added can be summarized in this graph:

    image host


    (2) VIT and DEF are related in a 2:3 DEF:VIT ratio, meaning adding 3 VIT is like adding 2 DEF.

    This is also evident if we look at the formula in conclusion 1. This is a very interesting conclusion since previous testing in both 1.18 and 1.20 have pointed to a 2:3 ATK:STR ratio as well.

    (3) VIT, in addition to affecting physical damage taken, also decreases magical/elemental attacks.


    We chose not to go any deeper into this aspect of VIT since this post focuses on physical damage.

    (4) Damage from different physical attacks (normal, WS, etc.) all carry the same damage reduction per adding DEF or VIT. Meaning DEF and VIT decrease damage taken the same on everything.

    This means that if we have a mob with 4 different physical attacks, say Full Thrust, Pierce, Light Thrust, and Leg Sweep - adding a certain amount of defense or VIT will decrease the average amount of damage taken by all of these attacks by the same amount.

    (5) There is a "damage floor" at which adding defense or VIT will no longer decrease damage taken. This "damage floor" depends on the dLVL of the enemy attacking.

    The damage floor is not affected by mob or player stats and is solely dependent on the attacking enemy's dLVL relationship with the player. The relationship between dLVL and the damage floor is summarized in the plot shown below.

    image host


    (6) The efficiency of adding more defense increases as one approaches the required defense to reach the damage floor for that particular enemy.

    I highly recommend reading the section of this post that focuses on efficiency. This is ultimately what the vast majority of players will care about with respect to defensive stats ("how good is it if I add X amount of defense to my current build?"). Embedded in this analysis is a quantitative explanation as to why the "naked Ifrit run" works.

    ******

    The obvious extension to this post is how this relates to ATK. We've already sort of done the testing on this but will take some time to write up.

  18. #218
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    Great read as usual Kaeko.

    While I'm here, I guess I'll drop my usual lodestone Japanese articles I've come across:


    Protect

    http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=316138


    A Study on Auto-Attack Damage Variations

    http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=316102


    Auto-Attack Damage Approximate Calculations

    http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=317670


    The Variations between Bow Damage numbers and its Averages


    http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=317397



    Also, just as a footnote:

    Caravan Double Rewards

    http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=317749

  19. #219
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    the linear defense reduction that causes exponential % return as you hit defense cap for the dlvl of a mob blew my mind lol simple concept but not gonna lie its been a while since I've done any real mathematics.

    Your ifrit dmg taken graph near the end of your LJ post looks out of scale just wondering if I'm missing something there. base defense 1,000dmg taken from swips vs 1k defense 650dmg taken

  20. #220
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    The studies on distribution are really interesting. In my own testing I always assume there is equal chance to hit a number between in the MIN and the MAX.