Stats and how they work.

[Soukyuu]

PGL conclusions up front:
STR is better than INT for both normal attacks and enhanced fists.

Thanks for the tests. Only thing that is missing is a parse on how INT affects Blindside damage, since that's one more effect it has on PGL. I have little equip and almost no time to test it myself sadly...

Also about STR+ vs. ATK+, I remember a rep posting something along of the lines that ATK is "bare" damage, while STR helps to "push" the damage through defense of higher level mobs. I'll try to find that post an link it.

[Kaeko]

Going to start making formal posts on the testing I've done for 1.20. First post on the cure formula. I'd do a direct to BG post but it's too long.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/54846.html

copy/paste conclusions for those that don't care about math:

(1) Mind itself does not affect the HP gain from Cure when used on classes other than CNJ. This will be a recurring theme for other abilities and spells as well.

(2) Adding +1 Healing Magic Potency adds roughly 1.25 HP on Cure and 2.50 HP on Cura when on CNJ. It adds roughly 1.10 HP per potency when on non-CNJ classes. Be aware this is an oversimpliciation.

(3) Vitality is a minor modifier to the Cure formula.

(4) For CNJ only, +1 Mind adds roughly +0.25 to HP to Cure and 0.50 to Cura. Much like my explanation for Healing Magic Potency, this is an oversimplification of what's really going on.

(5) When the caster and target are both R50 with no critical bonuses, the % bonus on critical cures is roughly an increase of 22-23%. The rate is roughly 7.8%. Limited testing on critical potency bonus so far.

Unfortunately I can't quite get a formula derived so I just stuck to the oversimplified "ratio increases" explanation for now. Also, sorry I didn't formally test Curaga. Probably do MATK/INT next unless anyone has a request. You name it I or someone in my LS probably tested it. Critique welcomed and appreciated.

[Raldo]

Excellent work, as always! I do have one thing bugging me, however.

Didn't the target's VIT play some small part in the amount cursed in FFXI?

I ask because conclusion #3 could be a result of your target having additional VIT, instead of the caster.

Unless specifically indicated, all tests are performed with an R50 on an R50 (self).

[Kaeko]

It's always self-target so I'm the caster and the target as well (just made it easier to control). I know that if you cure a target that's lower rank than you, the normal cures will do the exact same but the critical bonus will actually increase (don't know about the rate though). I failed to mention this point in the post just because criticals are complex enough to deserve it's own section probably.

Also, yes, VIT did play a minor role in the cure formula in XI as well. That's why I tried to control for it in case it was in XIV as well.

Last bit I'll add is that testing cures and magic attack, it seems like a big difference in XIV formulas compared to XI formulas is that I'm not sure if I've seen any formula that has a dSTAT in it. In XI it was all about stat differences meaning your stat versus the mob's stat. In XIV I have seen nothing to suggest this so far. Seiken Valk, who did all the ARC/LNC stat posts on the official forums is kind of my test partner on a lot of these and for melee stats, it seems like the same thing. This is not to say that the mob's stats play no role, only that they do not involve a direct "X-Y' part in the formula.

[Ratatapa]

GJ kaeko posted a question on your LJ (lol anonymous)

[Kaeko]

Gave you a reply. I guess LJ doesn't allow direct post w/o verification now due to spam(?). Here's the gist of what you wanted though:

* Cure on CNJ
1 potency = 1.25
1 mnd = 0.5625 (or 0.25 if only taking into account the mind modifier w/o its healing potency increase)

* Cura on CNJ
1 potency = 2.50
1 mnd = 1.125 (or 0.50 if only taking into account the mind modifier w/o its healing potency increase)

* Cure on non-CNJ
1 potency = 1.10
1 mnd = 0.275 (or 0 if only taking into account the mind modifier w/o its healing potency increase)

[Ratatapa]

And were you able to test, if healing pot got a cap? and what it was?

[Kaeko]

And were you able to test, if healing pot got a cap? and what it was?

I only tested up to 465 in the data set and nothing changed (no cap no tier). I've seen people with 500+ and they don't seem to get any less benefit so I suspect if there is a cap/tier it would be pretty difficult to reach without some triple+ meld.

[Fievel]

You're a beautiful man Kaeko, thank you! Amazing as always.

[Ratatapa]

I found this on lodestone, dunno if it's test or something (cuz you see 3 tables with different VIT values)

Maybe someone can translate

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=306910

Gave blog entry cuz if i gave you the picture link it was small as hell

so go to the blog and click on the pict for an ok resolution

[Seravi Edalborez]

Not a formal translation, but looks to do with VIT (and defense?) in regards to damage taken. Tested on Ixali (abilities listed include Stab, Impale, Sunset Plumes etc)
My kanji is bad but here's the attacks listed:
Light Slash
Heavy Slash
Stab
Sunset Plume
Circle Slash II
Wind Claw
Impale
Updraft

Guesses at columns: Ability, Total damage taken in test, Avg, High, Low, Number of hits, ??? (not sure what %s mean)

[Kaeko]

Guesses at columns: Ability, Total damage taken in test, Avg, High, Low, Number of hits, ??? (not sure what %s mean)

Evasion Rate I think

It's interesting that the return on DEF is not a %. For instance, he increases his DEF from 662 to 876 (+214, +32.3%) and the damage more than halved from 74 to 30 (-44, -247%). This suggests that adding defense gives some kind of linear decrease as opposed to a % decrease. This differs from XI where it was always ATK/DEF (and defense would have been a % gain or loss).

[Kaeko]

Since we're talking about JP blogger info, would be good if someone could do a rough translation:

INT/MATK Testing
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=304273

There some ARC testing on some of the blogs when I did a search as well, but the NA side probably has the most comprehensive stuff for that. Most of them will quote these NA threads started by Seiken:

LNC: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...IE-ATK-Testing
ARC: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...IE-ATK-Testing

[Lokus]

Someone else has done some more enmity testing as well. A lot of the conclusions seems to mirror Kaeko's original 1.18 enmity testing (aside from new 1.20 stuff obviously). Stanislaw was kind enough to translate it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Translation%29

[Stanislaw]

Since we're talking about JP blogger info, would be good if someone could do a rough translation:

INT/MATK Testing
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=304273

I'll give a shot at translating this one and the VIT and Defense one sometime tomorrow. Too tired at translating the enmity one today. Will try to include the numbers too although going through all that is probably going to be a pain in the ass.

By the way, should I post the translation results here or create a new thread for it? I'm thinking the former.

[Lokus]

Should probably be posted here. Now that I think about it, I should have posted your translation of the enmity in the other thread.. I'll get right on that..

[Kaeko]

I think its still easier to just post in this thread and cross post to new topic on the official forums. Thanks a ton for translating. I had run into a wall with the enmity testing so its good to see what others have come up with. I generally agree with both bloggers except I did not test the hate cap and a lot of the numbers I have are a bit off. I suspect this has to do with methodology. Did they just attack for damage or use abilities?

Most things on the list, whatever the true values are, are the same. Can break it down to if you use my list 4, 19,114, 55, 363, and then a couple of odd balls. So finishing the list for r50 should be easy once we validate 1 or 2 #s

[Stanislaw]

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=304273

Disclaimer: Because for some reason BG won't allow me to type JP text, going to just post the straight translation here.


I did some testing with INT.

Summary: There is no cap to INT.

*Some edits to this blog entry was done in 2012/1/24. There are some changes made to conclusions reached regarding caps to M.Atk.

Did some additional tests in additions to the tests before this here and added M.Atk 493 to the chart.


Picture 1:
(INT Static at 295)
Column 1 - M.Atk Numbers
Column 2 - Damage Averages (non-crit)
Column 3 - Critical Averages
Column 4 - Max Damage
Column 5 - Min Damage
Column 6 - Critical Hit Rate
Column 7 - # of spells cast
Column 8 - # of spells cast (non-crit)


Picture 2:
X-Axis: M.Atk
Y-Axis: Damage Averages (non-crit)


Conclusion: M.Atk is capped vs Shadow Lurkers (mobs in Shposhae) /w Fire at a value of somewhere around 463(+50).

Thanks to testing done by others here, (link deleted) it has been shown that it's possible this cap will vary depending on the mob (dependent on level differences? or perhaps stat difference?). My apologizes to assuming that this cap applied to all mobs without doing tests against others. *added 2012/1/24.


The objectives in this tests are:

1.) Is it possible to increase spell damages through INT when M.Atk is already capped (vs mob)?

2.) When the base M.Atk is different, does INT increase damages at a different ratio? (in FFXI, spell damages was calculated through percentages, so I wanted to see if this was the same case for this game)


Setup
THM 50, Base INT 256 (/w bonus from stat allotment), M.Atk. 423
Will keep M.Atk static and observe differences in damages through INT.

The two values in which M.Atk will be kept static are:
Case 1: 473
Case 2: 443

In these tests, we will keep the M.Atk values static at the above two levels, while changing INT through increments of 10.

Weapons Used:
Weathered Scepter, Verdant Scepter, Lightning Brand (with +33 INT from attached materia). These will be used in accordance with keeping the values static.

Based on observations from before, it has been shown that weapons do not affect spell damage. (note: I'm assuming what he means here is that if you strip all weapons with all stats, there are no differences to spell damage) So I'll be using various weapons to keep the test values static.


Test Mob:
Shadow Lurkers (lv17~18 mobs in Shposhae)


Spell:
Fire


Data:

Case 1 - M.Atk 473
Picture 3:
(M.Atk Static at 473)
Column 1 - INT Numbers
Column 2 - Damage Averages (non-crit)
Column 3 - Critical Averages
Column 4 - Max Damage
Column 5 - Min Damage
Column 6 - Critical Hit Rate
Column 7 - # of spells cast
Column 8 - # of spells cast (non-crit)


Case 2 - M.Atk 443
Picture 4:
(M.Atk Static at 443)
Column 1 - INT Numbers
Column 2 - Damage Averages (non-crit)
Column 3 - Critical Averages
Column 4 - Max Damage
Column 5 - Min Damage
Column 6 - Critical Hit Rate
Column 7 - # of spells cast
Column 8 - # of spells cast (non-crit)


Graphs (X-Axis: INT, Y Damage Averages (non-crit)
Case 1 - M.Atk 473
Picture 5 (X and Y axis as described)

Picture 6 (based on f(x))

Case 2 - M.Atk 443
Picture 7 (X and Y axis as described)

Picture 8 (based on f(x))


Comparison:
Picture 9:
Row 1 - INT
Row 2 - Damage Averages (non-crit) for M.Atk 473
Row 3 - Damage Averages (non-crit) for M.Atk 443

Picture 10 (X and Y axis as described, blue line for M.Atk 473, orange for M.Atk 443)

Picture 11 (based on f(x), blue line for M.Atk 473, orange for M.Atk 443)


Conclusion:

1.) An INT cap does not exist, at least until 368 INT (+112).

As the Case 1 graph shows, INT does not cap damage even with INT is raised to 368. It also shows that even when M.Atk does not raise the damage cap anymore, by increasing INT you can extend the damage even further. This means that there is no cap to Magic Damage itself, but a cap exists for M.Atk.
Such a cap does not only exist for M.Atk like I've testing here and before, but also to stats like DEX and PIE for ARC as shown here. From these results we can come to the conclusion that certain stats do have a cap.

Further testing will need to be done to determine where the cap exists for different stats, as well as the differences in cap between different DoWs.


2.) Even when M.Atk stats are different, there is no difference to how INT increases damage. (which means that M.Atk does not increase damage by a certain percentage)

To put it in even simpler terms, this means that M.Atk is not calculated like M.Atk is in FF11. I did these tests and came to these conclusions simply because I only wanted to find out, but for those who want a through explanation I'll explain it below.

Text spoiler tag:

Spoiler: show

For a moment, let's assume that spell damage calculations in FF11 worked the same way in FF14. How M.Atk worked in FF11 was:

Base Damage (influenced from stats such as INT) x Multiplier (from stats like M.Atk)

Let us assume for a moment that a person with 100 INT (with no influences from M.Atk) does 100 damage with Fire, and M.Atk will change this damage result by a certain percentage. So let's say in addition to the earlier stats someone has an additional 200 M.Atk. This will change Fire's damage to 100 x 200% = 200 damage. Keep in mind this is all theoretical and simplified to make my point across, but FF11, in general, followed such a pattern of calculations.

Under such calculations, there will be profound differences in spell damage if one increases their M.Atk from 100 INT compared to that of someone increasing their M.Atk from 110 INT. To illustrate my point, let's use the earlier calculation methods by examining each case where one has different INT values but increases their M.Atk values by the same amount. Damages will be:

INT 100 x 200% = 200 Damage >>> INT 100 x 300 = 300 Damage
300 - 200 = 100. Therefore, an increase of 100 damage.

INT 110 x 200% = 220 Damage >>> INT 110 x 300 = 330 Damage
330 - 220 = 110. Therefore, an increase of 110 damage.

From this, we can come to the conclusion that if the game followed damage calculations through this kind of pattern, raising M.Atk will be the better choice as it offers the player a multiplier to damage as opposed to a straight increase. This is the reason why I took data for Case 2, because if it showed that M.Atk was a multiplier instead of a steady increase, the increase from M.Atk will be sharper for the person with a higher INT.

However, from the graph comparing the results from Case 1, it is shown that even when the M.Atk values vary, there is no increased change in damage. This might seem like a no-brainer to some because FF11 and FF14 are very different games, but because this issue has always been bothering me I'm glad it's finally put to rest.

So INT or M.Atk - which is the better statistic for a person to focus? From the results of these tests, we can come to the conclusion that:

a.) An increase of 1 INT will increase the average damage by 1.17 vs Shadow Lurkers with Fire
b.) An increase of 1 M.Atk will increase the average damage by 2.2 vs Shadow Lurkers. However, this value will start decreasing when M.Atk goes over 443 (+30).

The number 1.17 is based on how steep the graph increases. So, from the above conclusions, it is safe to assume that raising M.Atk is the better choice. But because a cap exists for M.Atk, by increasing M.Atk to around 450 and then raising INT afterwards will make M.Atk reach its natural cap (because INT also increases M.Atk), this will be the best method to max out numbers. (note: Please keep in mind that this setup only works against this particular mob the tester tested against, as the M.Atk cap was reached easily because it was a low level/stat mob)

For people who wish to view test results vs different mobs, this person did some testing against Spindiggle + Thunder, and the results show that there is a higher increase in damage when M.Atk is increased as opposed to INT. (note: Unlike this test, the other test shows there's a massive increase in damage from M.Atk because, I'm assuming, the tester is fighting a higher level/stat mob and the M.Atk cap is not easily reached.)


Overall Impression:
I guess the only real conclusion I've come across is the single line I made in the initial summary. I was a little too hasty to jump to conclusions concerning M.Atk.






And done. Will get to the VIT one a bit later. I'm hungry.

[Stanislaw]

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=306910

Disclaimer: Because for some reason BG won't allow me to type JP text, going to just post the straight translation here.

I was always wondering which of the two, between Defense and VIT, would be more potent in reducing (physical) damage, so I allowed myself to get beaten up on by a few mobs. I haven't really done extensive testing so people will most likely point on flaws in my results, but I just wanted to see what the stats to in a more general term.

The mob in which these test results are based off a Lv50 Natalan Wolftamer. I allowed him to beat on me for 15 minutes, changing my VIT and Defense values between each tests. I couldn't pull my weapon out because I will otherwise block his attacks, so I'm standing there like a sandbag in passive mode.

Picture 1:
(Tester as a sandbag)

And here are the results.
Picture 2:
Column 1: Ability Name
Column 2: Total Damage
Column 3: Average (non-crit) (note: this is an assumption)
Column 4: Max Damage
Column 5: Min Damage
Column 6: Number of times abilities were used
Column 7: Evasion %
Row 2: Light Slash
Row 3: Heavy Slash
Row 4: Stab
Row 5: Sunset Plume
Row 6: Circle Slash II
Row 7: Wind Claw
Row 8: Impale
Row 9: Updraft

First Chart:
VIT: 272 Defense: 662
Second Chart:
VIT: 341 Defense: 662
Third Chart:
VIT: 272 Defense: 761
Fourth Chart:
VIT: 272 Defense: 876


The above results don't exactly show a conclusive result for WS's as the sample size isn't so big. Even Light Slash didn't go above 100 so it's not definite, but I think it's fine in the sense that one can see a definite trend.
From the above tests, I've concluded that raising VIT by 69 reduced my damage by 10%, whereas by raising Defense by 99 I've reduced my damage by 30%. From this result I can definitely say that raising one's defense will be more potent in reducing physical damage taken compared to VIT.

876 Defense was reached through the use of Protect + Food.
Under this setup, I've reduced damage taken by 50%. Increasing Defense is quite potent indeed.

What concerns me however is how WS's such as Wind Claw and Updraft work. From the looks of animation I suspect they are elemental-based WS's, and I get the impression that their damage is reduced if I increase VIT. The sample size is way too small, though, so the impression is only an impression.

My guess is that I'll need to be used as a sandbag for about 2 hours before I can give a firm conclusion. I wonder if there's any handy mobs out there that spit out elemental-based WS's like candy?

I also want to do these tests against higher-level mobs, but the only higher-level mob I can think of in which I can do these tests in a safe manner is the Lv52 Natalan Gatekeeper. Amalj'aa have abilities that lower of Defense, whereas the Kobolds will probably throw a lot of magic attacks at me... what to do...

Gah, what a bother.




And that's all, folks.

[Kaeko]

I'm all excited now that this forum has some actual BG-XI like collaboration. Thanks for the translations - i know they are a pain. Just got home so will start catching up.