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  1. #1
    The Once and Future Wamoura
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    BG-Wiki Random Question Thread

    Is this totally out of place?'-' It seems like every section gets one of these, and I have my moods with updating BG-wiki occasionally. Currently I was looking at Walk of Echoes, (I think Eldelphia was too? Is that her name? idfk) ANYWAYS despite being limited to running 7/9/11 I was curious about a few things:

    Is it fair to classify Void Dragons (idfk) as Wyrms? For instance, Tiamat, Jormungand, etc all share the same model... well down to the colours, sort of like Adeniums, Lycopodiums, Korrigans and the like. I mean, I can't think of a better name for Yilbegan/Anguis but I think they are too different from your standard Fafnir to be a "wyrm"!

    Also his Varanus "summons" (more like his chigoes, really) can't be classified under anything currently given; but considering their use in Maiden of Dusk (well, the same type of creature) would it outlandish to call them a Structure, or more specifically a Gyve (the name given in Maiden of Dusk and sort of appropriate)?

    Looking at the Bestiary page... every Elemental is represented, which I think makes sense, there are enough different kinds of Dark/Light/etc elementals out there. (BLM AF NMs, VNMs, some other shit I'm sure) But the links are directly to the widespread Elementals in the world i.e.; standard Air Elemental. The reason I bring this up are the new "superelementals" introduced in Heroes. Also, we now know Pixies are listed as Elementals, so should they not be included under that family as well?

    Speaking of Abyssea; is it ridiculous to go through and add the Empyrean AF+1/+2 to each job's page? (It actually appears some job pages do have them, but not all of them. The table on the MNK page is nice but it looks a little cluttered to me? I am terrible at coding though so idk, I'll input whatever is there.)

    What the fuck is with the Black Mage spell list? Also why does BLU have a merit listing on the bottom of the page? Should this be a uniform thing? (Also again, the lack of uniformity between the job pages bugs me. Compare SCH's AF3 listing to MNK's.)

    And what the hell at these seemingly random write-ups on jobs? SCH has an "Overview"; Bard has "Strength & Weaknesses"; PUP has "Endgame Tactics" etc. etc.

    Is there any easy equation/table/listing for the standard skill caps @95? I actually don't have a 95 job myself but, for instance, an A+ skill would be like 415 or something, and that would be true for all jobs still, no? Some of these skill caps have not been updated since 75. ;;

    The meme section is totes out of date too btw.

    Do we know if Voragaens have any Monster Correlation?

    What are Hahava/Uptala/Tapana? Do we know what Iron Giants are classified as? [I see the names Naraka for the first question and Giants listed as archae machinery or w/e the Dominion Tacticians used to call it... is that much true? Was the first term player-invented?]

    Edit: I see Septimus' note on the inclusion of Iron Giants and Caturae. I feel like the Tacticians did/do give us specifics. Perhaps the test server still has 0 intel so we can get those "we know it's a blank..." or something?

    How can I test to see what Harpeia are classified as? As an aside, while this name is appropriate, it is player given yes? Considering there are "Harpeia" mobs which are Khimairas in Flux #4 of WoE iirc.

    Why are Bomb and Snoll separate but not Djinn?

    Should there be a "Game Mechanic" page explaining staggering? Considering how prevalent it has become... and probably will be going forward. (Can you still stagger in WoE btw? I guess that is suited for the other RQT though!)

    I think that is it for now.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocl View Post
    Is this totally out of place?'-' It seems like every section gets one of these, and I have my moods with updating BG-wiki occasionally. Currently I was looking at Walk of Echoes, (I think Eldelphia was too? Is that her name? idfk) ANYWAYS despite being limited to running 7/9/11 I was curious about a few things:

    Is it fair to classify Void Dragons (idfk) as Wyrms? For instance, Tiamat, Jormungand, etc all share the same model... well down to the colours, sort of like Adeniums, Lycopodiums, Korrigans and the like. I mean, I can't think of a better name for Yilbegan/Anguis but I think they are too different from your standard Fafnir to be a "wyrm"! - Sure. Totally different TP set but obviously a dragon. What do you want to name it?

    Also his Varanus "summons" (more like his chigoes, really) can't be classified under anything currently given; but considering their use in Maiden of Dusk (well, the same type of creature) would it outlandish to call them a Structure, or more specifically a Gyve (the name given in Maiden of Dusk and sort of appropriate)? - Okay

    Looking at the Bestiary page... every Elemental is represented, which I think makes sense, there are enough different kinds of Dark/Light/etc elementals out there. (BLM AF NMs, VNMs, some other shit I'm sure) But the links are directly to the widespread Elementals in the world i.e.; standard Air Elemental. The reason I bring this up are the new "superelementals" introduced in Heroes. Also, we now know Pixies are listed as Elementals, so should they not be included under that family as well? - Pixies should be included. What do you propose we do about the dozens of monsters named XXX Elemental that are all actually NMs or what-have-you? "Dark Elemental (Einherjar)" vs. "Dark Elemental (A Manifest Problem)" vs. "Dark Elemental" (for the normal one)?

    Speaking of Abyssea; is it ridiculous to go through and add the Empyrean AF+1/+2 to each job's page? (It actually appears some job pages do have them, but not all of them. The table on the MNK page is nice but it looks a little cluttered to me? I am terrible at coding though so idk, I'll input whatever is there.) - It's not ridiculously hard, but as you note the job pages are unstandardized. That gives us two options: 1) Figure out how to fit a table on to each page while leaving most of the rest of it unchanged. 2) Standardize the formatting of the job pages to some degree and adjust them all while adding the Empyrean Armor. I'd suggest the time difference between the two options isn't actually that large considering how long it'd take me to figure out how to format Empyrean +1/2 armor onto each page.

    What the fuck is with the Black Mage spell list? Also why does BLU have a merit listing on the bottom of the page? Should this be a uniform thing? (Also again, the lack of uniformity between the job pages bugs me. Compare SCH's AF3 listing to MNK's.)

    And what the hell at these seemingly random write-ups on jobs? SCH has an "Overview"; Bard has "Strength & Weaknesses"; PUP has "Endgame Tactics" etc. etc. - See above

    Is there any easy equation/table/listing for the standard skill caps @95? I actually don't have a 95 job myself but, for instance, an A+ skill would be like 415 or something, and that would be true for all jobs still, no? Some of these skill caps have not been updated since 75. ;; - Motenten's page is so good for this (and what I use) that I'd be inclined to not dick around with anything like this until the 99 cap and everything is settled down.

    The meme section is totes out of date too btw. - Solly

    Do we know if Voragaens have any Monster Correlation? - I imagine a really bored BLU could maybe check? I assumed they opposed the other Abyssea-onry monster type.

    What are Hahava/Uptala/Tapana? Do we know what Iron Giants are classified as? [I see the names Naraka for the first question and Giants listed as archae machinery or w/e the Dominion Tacticians used to call it... is that much true? Was the first term player-invented?] - I defer to Septimus

    Edit: I see Septimus' note on the inclusion of Iron Giants and Caturae. I feel like the Tacticians did/do give us specifics. Perhaps the test server still has 0 intel so we can get those "we know it's a blank..." or something?

    How can I test to see what Harpeia are classified as? As an aside, while this name is appropriate, it is player given yes? Considering there are "Harpeia" mobs which are Khimairas in Flux #4 of WoE iirc.

    Why are Bomb and Snoll separate but not Djinn? - I don't know

    Should there be a "Game Mechanic" page explaining staggering? Considering how prevalent it has become... and probably will be going forward. (Can you still stagger in WoE btw? I guess that is suited for the other RQT though!) - Yeah, there probably should be. With the different proc systems on it. Currently the info is on the category page for the events. I think there's a page for "Proc."

    I think that is it for now.
    Here's my attempt to answer questions. I'm generally less concerned with naming/category specifics than I should be, considering how difficult it is to update stuff like that in the wiki. As such, I avoid doing things related to many of your questions.

  3. #3
    The Once and Future Wamoura
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    I'll just answer your answers by naming my questions because oh my god I don't want to quote within a quote within a quote. (and no multi-step quotes anymore is lame)

    Yilbegan/Anguis: Not certain on the name. Both are connected to the rift/void/dimensional thing. I'm apprehensive about creating names obviously (as my other questions tell!) because it's tricky. For instance "black dragon" wouldn't work, because in the Vana'diel Tribune profile on Ranperre Vrtra is referred to as a black dragon. (It also implies there are multiple iirc)

    Elementals: I think the naming scheme of Dark Elemental [being the one that appears in zones with weather] and things like Dark Elemental (Einherjar) is fine. It's a hassle, but I almost feel it's necessary! How cluttered would the Dark Elemental page be if you listed each one of their AIs? (Well, all I can think of is the Abyssea Dark Elemental VNMs atm, but I am sure there are more..) And then you could include the T1 VNM Elementals under their respective elements in addition to any which appear in Temenos/Apollyon/Einherjar and have things like Magic Sludge, Chaos Elemental, etc. I don't know if I'm making sense; elementals is the superfamily and the precise element is subfamily. It's already arranged that way but the link to the page leads you directly to the open zone elementals which spawn through weather conditions. What I'm saying is have a Category:Ice Elementals. I think you know this, but I felt the need to articulate it more clearly.

    Job Pages: I think including a table similar to the one found on the MNK page is sufficient for the AF3 and also the BLU merit table would be spiffilicious. The weakness/strengths/overviews/opinionated outdated bullshit should be cut imo. Should be in a guide if anything, I don't think its necessary to have a tutorial on the job page.

    Skill Limits: I suppose that makes sense, but at the same time it bugs me, I might change it all anyway. Mainly because some have 75, some have 85, some have 90 etc.

    Voragaens: What other Abyssea-only monster type? Amoeban, Murex, Clionid and Limule are all Voragaen. How could I test for correlation? I am literally retarded but if you know of a way, I will do mundane things for at least two hours.

    Staggering: The proc page refers to the game term, there's examples of things like paralyze, etc given so I don't think it's exactly what is needed.

  4. #4
    Ridill
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    Yilbegan/Anguis- Let's call them "Rift Dragons" since there really aren't Wyrms. Gyve is a good name for the category of things that Lilith and Anguis summon.

    Elementals- The general problem with elementals is that it is difficult to distinguish between the families and entities that populate said families. It's kind of like there is a Chigoe family and a type of mob named Chigoe, except even worse in that other than a few instances every Dark Elemental is named "Dark Elemental". Categories for each type of elemental would be useful, but then we have the problem of summoned pets which can be of multiple elements all with the same name. (Kindred's Elemental, Vanguard's Elemental, etc.) But even that isn't really insurmountable.

    Job pages- It is just a matter of doing the work to put the Empyrean Armor and merits onto all of the pages. Really, the overview stuff should be cut out since it isn't the same game as it was at 75.

    Spoiler: show
    In end game situations, Red Mage is generally utilized as a support role job. With access to spells such as Refresh, Slow, and Paralyze, Red Mage is easily able to speed up what would be lengthy fights.

    In specific situations, with proper gear, Red Mage/Ninja is able to fulfill the position of a tank.
    Oh, that's just precious in retrospect.


    Looks like the spell section on the BLM page got a little disorganized, I will take care of that shortly.

    Skill Limits- That is just another thing that we need elbow grease to fill in. I doubt that they are going to change the existing skills once we get to 99, so if you have access to the test server and have unmerited skills, it would all be a matter of changing your job level and filling in the proper numbers in the proper places. (I even have a spreadsheet for it.)

    Memes- I have asked several times for someone to be the curator for the meme museum (or memeseum) but have had no volunteers. If anyone wants to take the time to work on it, it would be appreciated because I think it is one of the best parts of BGWiki.

    Naraka- I named Hahava/Uptala/Tapana Naraka just because I couldn't think of anything better to call them. Hahava is one of the levels of Naraka, what would be referred to as "Hell" in Buddhist philosophy. It seemed wildly appropriate, so I ran with it. if Square ever released an official name for them, I would gleefuly change it.

    Voragaens- I don't know if any changes have been made to monster correlations since Luminians and Luminions were added. Honestly, I am not sure what other monsters that would be left for opposition or predation since most of them are already charted. Possibly Empty mobs. I guess the best way to check would be to test Blue Magic against them to see if damage from the spells would be resisted or increased.

    I will look more at that long wall o' text tomorrow and see if i can get more answers. Because it is a long wall o' text.

  5. #5
    The Once and Future Wamoura
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    Bestiary/Naraka/etcI've re-organized the Bestiary page some. Put Naraka under Undead, Pixie under Elementals, etc.

    Yilbegan/AnguisCreated the Gyve and Rift Dragon categories, I'll be paying more attention and putting myself in AoE range of Anguis when I do #7 from now on to get more concrete info '-'

    Job Pages So if I take the Merit Point table from BLU and the AF3 template from MNK and start applying them that will be OK? I can also do the skill caps, I just want a preferred set-up for the tables before I go and do that.

    Voragaens I forgot that Empty didn't have correlation. I suppose an easy way to test would be: cast a Voragaen spell on an Empty (something like Blazing Bound or Acrid Stream, they're fairly static, no?) then cast the same spell with AF1 head? I don't think there's an Empty nuke but I suppose it'd be easy enough to see, n'est-ce pas?

  6. #6
    Ridill
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    I am guessing that someone tested Undead Killer or Sepulcher on the Naraka mobs to determine that they are undead, or at least hoping so. I notice that someone categorized the Caturae species as Arcana, does anyone know if this was tested with Arcana Killer/Arcane Crest or some other method? (I'm not calling it in doubt, I just want to make sure that the i's are dotted and t's are crossed.)

    Honestly, I have no clue what the Gyve do, I have always avoided the hell out of them because I know it is nothing good.

    The BLU merit tables are a good template to use for sure. There are two different tables for the Empyrean Armor, MNK and DNC. Both have their strengths- the MNK one has the upgrade items listed for +1 and +2 which would be a great time-saver, the DNC one has the sets listed which is great for the +2 bonuses. I am not sure if I like the Empyrean accessories better listed separately or not.

    You might want to go to the math sub forum and ask them about a test for monster correlation effects for Voragaens. I doubt that they put one in, but it would make sense that if they did it would be Empty mobs considering the origins of both.

  7. #7
    The Once and Future Wamoura
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    Yeah I have personally seen Paladins with Sepulcher intimidate Uptala, so that's a confirmed thing.

    I know what the Gyves do in Flux #7, but it's been a while since I did Maiden of the Dusk so I don't recall those...

    I'll start inputting the merits using the BLU table probably sometime later tonight or tomorrow if someone doesn't do it first.

    The other bestiary related things I can think of: Snolls are listed separate of Bombs. Why not Djinn?
    The designation "Harpeia" for the harpy-esque mobs is fitting, but there are Khimaira mobs with the name Harpeia in Walk of Echoes. Is this a problem? '~'

  8. #8
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    I believe the Harpy name was pulled from here: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Celaeno%27s_Cloth

  9. #9
    Ridill
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    Djinn count towards bomb trials (I did my Titan trials on Djinn in Vunkerl Inlet (S), so I know this for a fact) but Snolls do not count towards bomb trials. (Snolls have their own designation for trials.) Technically, Clots are different from Slime for the same reason- Clots do not count towards Slime trials, which sucks because Mount Zhayolm has lots of clots and earth weather very frequently meaning 841 would be done lickey-split there. (At least you can do it in Dynamis - Jeuno now.)

    Harpeia seems to be the official term for the category as noted from Celaeno's Cloth:
    http://images.bluegartr.com/wiki/5/5...escription.png

    As for the names, I don't see it as a problem so long as they are categorized properly. Maybe put a disambiguation on the page for the Harpeia monster to link to the category. (Hopefully with a picture of a non-Harpeia looking Khimaira to avoid confusion.)

    The funny thing is that Hahva's Mail uses the term "hellish warrior" to describe it, which does not sound at all like an official name. Voidwrought Plate describes it as a "transdimensional intruder". It's all just a giant mess and you kind of just have to make the best judgement call that you can most of the time.

  10. #10
    Ridill
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    Added a category for Iron Giants, Could someone look that over to make sure that the information (TP moves, procs for drops) is correct. Still have to add in the ones for Bastion, not a high priority.

  11. #11
    Sea Torques
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    TP moves are right now, and added the blue!! drop of the Misareaux one.

  12. #12
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalasin View Post
    TP moves are right now, and added the blue!! drop of the Misareaux one.
    Cool, thank you.

  13. #13
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    So many mob's on BG Wiki have no data. Last time I browsed the list for Aby - Uleg, I think all NM's listed were Red...

  14. #14
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyangi View Post
    So many mob's on BG Wiki have no data. Last time I browsed the list for Aby - Uleg, I think all NM's listed were Red...
    There are a lot of red links, we need more people to help. We have a great group of editors that work very hard to keep information up to date, but there is always room for someone new to help out with things that other people cannot get to.

  15. #15
    THOU THOU THOU THOU THOU THOU THOU THOU
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyangi View Post
    So many mob's on BG Wiki have no data. Last time I browsed the list for Aby - Uleg, I think all NM's listed were Red...
    Congratulations, you just volunteered yourself! Get a shovel and get to work, and don't mind the ball and chain we just casually slipped around your leg!

  16. #16
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    Abyssea. . . I feel I could pretty much answer every question about it off the top of my head, but it's just a tremendous amount of work to go build all those pages, link all the items, link back to all the monsters, etc. I started doing it for Konschtat a few months ago and did quite a bit of La Theine as well. That wasn't even including monster pages, and it still took me forever. There is a lot more to do, though >;/



    Dynamis To Do List:
    * Swap Orcs to the new monster format
    * Go through and swap the zone specific monsters for RotZ non-Jeuno zones to the new monster format.
    * Reformat the RotZ non-Jeuno zones to be like Tav's main page
    * Get a monster map for Tav, or figure out how to make one. I made an ugly one a while ago but I'd feel bad uploading it.
    * Figure out how to handle Artifact Armor drops
    * Go back through and delete the Goblin Dice note from every NQ Goblin page, because I don't think they can use it after all.
    * Last three pictures



    Afaik, we're missing:
    *Rearguard Eye
    *Hydra's Wyvern
    *Avatar Icon
    pictures, and otherwise Dynamis pictures are done.

  17. #17
    The Once and Future Wamoura
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    Job Merits: I'm doing all the tables tonight, but while my knowledge is vast, I don't know all the ins and outs. So if someone can look at a few of them and make sure they're not misleading... I'm most directly quoting in-game help text but trying to make it more clear

    ((gonna list all the descriptions i'm terribly unsure of))
    For instance: TOMAHAWK, I know what it does but fuck explaining it is hard for my pea brain
    Penance, Shellra V, potency merits, blaugh all of them really


    gah, 3 AM i'm not gonna do any more tonight, got the base 6 jobs done. if people are happy with that format, i'll continue. if there are no objections, i'll also continue. but '~'

  18. #18
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    A few things before I rush off to bed:
    RDM: * Blind 2 is INT vs. INT, not MND vs. INT
    * Bio 3 reduces enemy attack by 15%, the DoT scales with Dark Magic skill, but I don't know much beyond that.
    * Dia 3 reduces enemy defense by 15%? and does 3HP/tick damage regardless of everything, I think.
    WAR: * Tomahawk reduces damage resistances by 25%. So if something is 50% resistant to magic, it will only be 37.5% resistant after getting hit with Tomahawk. I agree that it's hard to blurb-ize
    MNK: * Penance gives Inhibit TP, which is TP Gain for the monster -25% after all Subtle Blow and everything.
    * You might want to note that 24 seconds is 8 ticks (80 HP)

    I'm not a formatting genius, and I am due for bed, so I'll leave the rest for others!

  19. #19
    Sea Torques
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    Working on Abys-Altep a little, do we have a header for that zone anywhere? Noticed it was missing.

  20. #20
    The Once and Future Wamoura
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    I don't think any Heroes zone has a header, it should just be a pretty screenshot though '-'