Legion - info and strategies

[Outlaw]

It's too expensive to be tossing 360,000 gil at this event over and over again for a shot at one of a bazillion drops when people don't care about probably 75% of the bazillion drops, especially considering you only get 3 drop chances (if you're do "well") with a full alliance. I'm sure the drops are more specific than that, to hall, or wave, or mob, or whatever, but people are never going to figure it out with the event setup the way it is anyway.

Edit: The points accumulation rate also leaves a lot to be desired, and those rings are generally worthless anyway.

I thought it cost 360k for the item for the whole group? So 20k per person if there's 18.

[Ophannus]

Think Chaos/War roll or whatever and marches.

[jimbobsonofgod]

Dear Square:
Fix this shit ass event.
Love, Jimbob.

Just tried (1 sch 1 whm 1 cor DD DD 1 blm)x 5 (2 parties on 2 of the mobs and 1 party on the last).
Got khimy dead but the other two were just too much. Going to try hold 1 and kill 2 this round.

Okay had a pld hold cerb had everyone else evenly split between hydra and khimy cleared first wave, second wave got to 38 or so before we lost control on hydra then cerb, that hydra just spammed nerve gas.

[MeldityofGilgamesh]

anyway i really love this event. it really calls to arms of all the elites in the server(if there are any left). its an event where se doesn't hold the dicks of the casualfags.

[Toth]

anyway i really love this event. it really calls to arms of all the elites in the server(if there are any left). its an event where se doesn't hold the dicks of the casualfags.

Therein lies the issue. Most of the great players on some servers still have not come back to the game yet. PUGs are the only way to go atm ; ;

[Mythe_Seraph]

have not come back to the game yet

I like your positive attitude

[Zag]

I like your positive attitude

I LOLed... Where is Mythe, Rukenshin and Muteki at? Oh, they aren't coming back
But who doesn't have a relic or empyrean these days? Seems like 90% of the population can get good gear now. Some of them just need to ask the Wizard of Oz for a brain.

[Ophannus]

Dear Square:
Fix this shit ass event.
Love, Jimbob.

"Abyssea is easymode; game is boring and needs challenging content again."
[Legion introduced]
"Fuckkk legion is too hard, make it easier SE!"


I remember when Einherjar first came out and people were like lol einherjar is too hard, no way anybody will ever clear this shit content and get to Odin. Then a month or two afterwards, screenshots of JPs getting to Odin's Chamber surfaced, then a few more months later the first LS started getting wins.

[Guitarman]

"Abyssea is easymode; game is boring and needs challenging content again."
[Legion introduced]
"Fuckkk legion is too hard, make it easier SE!"


I remember when Einherjar first came out and people were like lol einherjar is too hard, no way anybody will ever clear this shit content and get to Odin. Then a month or two afterwards, screenshots of JPs getting to Odin's Chamber surfaced, then a few more months later the first LS started getting wins.

The difference being, 80% of those intelligent, skilled players aren't around anymore. People always boast on forums they want hardcore content just to flaunt their e-dick, but in reality, they are really asking for "make it just hard enough so i get everything and everyone else cant".

[Byrthnoth]

Anything that legit takes a full alliance of competent players these days is unreasonably difficult for what the playerbase has become. Legion seems to require two. I doubt there is more than one linkshell per server that can actually do this event productively, and most servers won't even have one.

People could make "Legion Shells" of competent players from multiple groups, because attendance isn't an issue, but the rewards for participating in this event don't seem to justify that level of effort yet.

[Jem]

Anything that legit takes a full alliance of competent players these days is unreasonably difficult for what the playerbase has become. Legion seems to require two. I doubt there is more than one linkshell per server that can actually do this event productively, and most servers won't even have one.

People could make "Legion Shells" of competent players from multiple groups, because attendance isn't an issue, but the rewards for participating in this event don't seem to justify that level of effort yet.

Honestly I think that is a reasonable difficulty level. The problem is what you stated at the end, the rewards are shit so there's no incentive. Not everything in the game should be easily beatable with a standard PUG as that is what has contributed to the 'better' players quitting.

Our LS can probably muster 18-24 when we have our first Legion scheduled on Saturday but my enthusiasm for it is practically zero as it just seems like a waste of time/resources that would be better spent elsewhere.

[MeldityofGilgamesh]

>2010
>abyssea comes out
>2012
>ffxi players need to have skill again

[Kalasin]

>2010
>abyssea comes out
>2012
>ffxi players need to have skill again

The problem is exactly that. The people who would have been able to clear Legion before Abyssea(with monsters in there capped at 75 etc etc just an example), would be able to now as well. The difference is, good luck finding a Linkshell with this many skilled players in it, or with this many players in it at all. Odin became easy once we found out a strategy. Having not much time on the second wave, and on top of that ass accuracy doesn't really help finding one.

For what it's worth, the Lofty Behemoth in An chamber spams spells when he has spikes up, however doesn't cast at all without them up. So spam dispel on it and it won't cast at all, making it really easy.

We had a PLD hold the Wyrm in a corner, the BLMs with 2 SAMs on the Adamantoise, and the rest on the Behemoth. After Behemoth died, those on it switched to Wyrm, but we had close to no time left after that because it was a PUG.

[Byrthnoth]

Honestly I think that is a reasonable difficulty level. The problem is what you stated at the end, the rewards are shit so there's no incentive. Not everything in the game should be easily beatable with a standard PUG as that is what has contributed to the 'better' players quitting.

Our LS can probably muster 18-24 when we have our first Legion scheduled on Saturday but my enthusiasm for it is practically zero as it just seems like a waste of time/resources that would be better spent elsewhere.

I wish I could agree, but I would literally have to make an event LS with ~30 competent people in it in order to get 18-24 semi-regularly. Assuming I could press-gang all the good players that I know into one shell and force them to accept that half of them will be playing support jobs/mages instead of the DDs they spent the last year pimping out, I could maybe make it happen. There would have to be a major incentive for mages and bard to aggressively gear and go back to playing mages and bards. Like, level 99 glowing mythics dropping from the final chambers. Short of that, it isn't going to happen.

To be clear, I don't think that (before legion and possibly excluding the last chamber of WoE) there was any event in the game that required a full alliance of competent players. I certainly know I have killed Botulus with some scrubs leeching along, and Ig-Alima is a joke compared to him.

[Jem]

Those numbers sound about in-line with our current numbers. Our LS is basically 24 people with about 12 of them having 75-80%+ attendance, the other 12 are like 30-60% due to work/children/lack of interest/etc. Then we have a few extra people who are former members who quit or LS friends who infrequently tag along when there's space.

Our attendance since Jan 31st is

18, 14, 16, 18, 18, 19, 17, 17, 18, 18, 19, 14, 21, 16, 19, 14, 18, 18, 17, 18, 17, 18, 17, 15, 14, 18, 16, 14, 17, 18

The majority of the 16-19 are actually 20+ but people have stepped aside due to VW ally space or to allow mules to get items and stuff. All the 14's are typically crappy events (PW, WoE, CoP Dyna Bosses).


I see Legion falling into the crap event territory for us and probably starting out with 18+ before dwindling to 14-15 and us not bothering with it tbh.


EDIT: I realise I've been lucky to be able to stick with the same group of people for the last 5+ years. Our attendance has actually picked up as VW has progressed (we were getting 12-14 in Sept 11).

[Khamsin]

Back in the old days when Nidhogg required an alliance, the fight itself was fairly well paced, but you needed an alliance of competent players to hold it still, keep people healed, do damage, etc. If you're subpar, Nidhogg will flail, or the tank will lose hate, or it'll rage because you weren't damaging it fast enough.

Nowadays, challenges take the form of poorly paced fight where a billion things are happening all at once, and quickly, and if you fail, everything just explodes and everyone dies. It usually comes down to staring at a spamming chat log to stun something that will wipe you, or handling multiple powerful NMs at once, or annoying adds, or just downright cheap TP moves.

What I'd like is something that feels like Nidhogg again. Something with enough HP, defense, and stats to be too hard for all but the most well-equipped LSs, and maybe some regen so lesser equipped groups can't just whittle away at it. Toss in a rage timer, too. The trick here are the TP moves. Nidhogg's Hurricane Wing won't kill all mages and most melee in a single hit, but it will if people are feeding it TP and it uses it back to back to back. Breath can be reduced by fighting on the feet. Flail can be avoided. These things make Nidhogg deadly to less experienced groups, and more manageable to organized players who listen and learn. The first step to fighting Nidhogg is knowing those things. The second step is holding hate, curing without draining all your MP and pulling hate, and doing enough damage to overcome regen and kill it in time.

The other trick is making it so a PD zerg is not a realistic option, without involving cheap deathga moves that would annoy people fighting it the normal way. I think something like a time-wasting terrorga would work. During a normal fight, if TP feed is kept under control, it won't spam it and any good PLD could survive a little while until it wore.

The most important thing, though, is I want a fight that has breathing room, where TP moves don't one-shot you, but could still overwhelm you if you relentlessly feed TP and don't pay attention to strategy. A fight where you can blink and not suddenly find your alliance dead, unless it's because you did something stupid, like cause a flail. The challenge would be in the strategy, meaning people have to listen and pay attention, whether it be positioning, or when to attack and when to turn, or different modes of vulnerability. And the challenge would also be in the raw stats, where you'd need a couple relic/empy DD parties with full COR + BRD buffs to beat the regen and take out all it's HP before it rages (and yet, at a pace that the WHM and tank can handle). Plus some manageable challenges to make aegis/ochain PLDs feel proud of their tanking ability.

[Slycer]

I thought it cost 360k for the item for the whole group? So 20k per person if there's 18.

Yes, but I'm saying, at the current rate, you're paying 360,000 gil for, at best (given previous groups' success rates for 18 man runs), three drop chances and 60 Legion points (6% of a shitty ring). Even if you assume you get one drop per run, the vast majority of those drops are not worth 360,000 gil, not to mention, the opportunity cost of having 18 or more people gathered for however long it takes you to finish the event (which is pretty significant).

It just seems silly to design an event at this stage of the game based on 36 people. It really wasn't clear until it was added to the real server, so it wasn't like we could provide legitimate feedback on the test server. This has nothing to do with the difficulty. And yes, you can do it with less people and kill less mobs, but really, who wants to do an event and be only half successful? Anyway, my point isn't Q_Q it's too hard, it's Q_Q where the hell am I going to find 35 good players to do this with? The former is not a valid complaint, at least not until we have more basis to judge, but I think the latter is. My opinion, anyway.

[Byrthnoth]

I wouldn't really cite Nidhogg as an example of a monster that you need an alliance of competent players to kill. You could kill Nidhogg comfortably with a single party of good players at 75. Flailing, dying to wings, etc. would be more of a sign of gross incompetence than skill. Admittedly, it is probably harder to get a full alliance of people that won't flail Nidhogg than a single party, but I always saw large groups in DA as more of a claim tool than strategic necessity.

When I think of "needs 18 competent players", I am thinking more of something like Dynamis Tav pre-patch. Leeches require fast erases. Sleepers have to be on the ball. Your DD have to be good if you want the run to be worthwhile. etc. We used to do this on Tuesday night because most of the lower playtime players wouldn't show up and it was faster than a full run.

Old Einherjar tier 3s were similar, but back then I went with more like "18 competent players and 10 quasi-competent players." Bards in Hecatomb, Black Mages in NQ weskits... I can't pretend everyone was good. It was mostly people playing jobs that they had leveled because the LS required it, but it really showed in the effort they put in to gearing/playing it. Legion sounds like an event where that level of effort isn't acceptable.

[Genosync]

There's a difference between something that's properly designed, and poorly designed.

Khamsin's reference of Nidhogg is perfect in this regard. It's unfortunately that they can't think up any more mobs like the original wyrms. Jorm and Tiamat are the same way IMO. Vrtra isn't because of the moving bullshit with flail, but anyway...


Everything I'm reading about Legion is just more proof that Tanaka is poison to everything he touches. The rewards aren't matching the effort.

edit to say something to Byrth:
I think he's talking more about the beginnings of when we did Fafhogg, rather than the years that came later where it was realistic to kill with one party.

[Tomiko]

Nowadays, challenges take the form of poorly paced fight where a billion things are happening all at once, and quickly, and if you fail, everything just explodes and everyone dies. It usually comes down to staring at a spamming chat log to stun something that will wipe you, or handling multiple powerful NMs at once, or annoying adds, or just downright cheap TP moves.

These are the main issues I see with Legion.

-The 30 minute time limit is a joke unless there's a trick to everything like with Behemoth's Spikes and casting. We've been going with ~32 and have only cleared the first wave of chambers we've tried (Behemoth/Aspi/Nidd & Hydra/Cerb/Khim). It was mentioned that it comes down to just over 4 mins per kill which just doesn't seem possible ith all things considered.

-One screw up and everything goes downhill fast. If one holding/fighting party dies then that mob is now on the others likely forcing them to wipe as well.

-The TP moves can wreck a competent party. For the 2nd wave, Stun isn't even an option due to it now having resistance (We were able to stun the mob in Wave 1 then unable to stun the Wave 2 version). Hydra/Khim/Cerb having their asshole moves from the start is a pain in the ass. Its workable with good support, but even then its possible for people to go down fast due to how hard they hit.

-Recovering from a wipe is difficult since the NMs all roam the area and seem to have a large aggro range. And if I remember right, they also have ally hate.

If SE wants to keep the difficulty level the same, they should increase the time allowed to 45 minutes at the very least. An hour would be generous and make full clears possible for most as long as they know what they're doing.