NCsoft files lawsuit to thwart TERA launch

[Foxer]

Might wanna wipe the dirt off your knees there.

What dirt? EME's a piece of shit too. There's no playing fanboy here. Just stating facts. These lawsuits have been happening for quite a while now.

[Kaylia]

Loli's are serious business. Though seriously, there's a loli race in basically every asian MMO. There's commonalities, but I think generally it would be hard to prove because artists always "take" inspiration from other places.

It's not just that loli, all 7 are somewhat similar (page 19+)
http://tsi.brooklaw.edu/sites/tsi.br...lcomplaint.pdf

Given the context, it's not a coincidence that both projects shared so many similarities. The ideas they developped for L3 were obviously reused here.

What they did was most likely legal, but it doesn't make it less of a dick move. It's the same as me leaving my research team today with every methologies we developped over the last few years. It's not like I can forget what I learned here, but I'm still wasting people time and money doing so.

[Foxer]

Why does this remind me of the facebook story?

[Elcura]

It's not just that loli, all 7 are somewhat similar (page 19+)
http://tsi.brooklaw.edu/sites/tsi.br...lcomplaint.pdf

Given the context, it's not a coincidence that both projects shared so many similarities. The ideas they developped for L3 were obviously reused here.

What they did was most likely legal, but it doesn't make it less of a dick move. It's the same as me leaving my research team today with every methologies we developped over the last few years. It's not like I can forget what I learned here, but I'm still wasting people time and money doing so.

Well, 1 race might have just been coincidence and all that, but all seven together is pretty damning when I look at them.

[Lucavi]

^ Agreed. I wasn't really convinced one way or another until I saw all 7 races lined up together. That's pretty... damning.

[Foxer]

World map gives it away even more for people who actually play the game.

[madpersian]

It's not just that loli, all 7 are somewhat similar (page 19+)
http://tsi.brooklaw.edu/sites/tsi.br...lcomplaint.pdf

Given the context, it's not a coincidence that both projects shared so many similarities. The ideas they developped for L3 were obviously reused here.

What they did was most likely legal, but it doesn't make it less of a dick move. It's the same as me leaving my research team today with every methologies we developped over the last few years. It's not like I can forget what I learned here, but I'm still wasting people time and money doing so.

It'd only be similar if you also stole all the data. Not just your know how. That's the real issue. If the allegations are true. Seriously, the art and world and races isn't that big of a deal. It's the trade secrets that are a big deal. If true.

[Elcura]

I'm pretty sure you can use trade secrets to create models, texture maps, rigs, animation, VFX and all that (unless we're thinking of very different things). Since the concepts are very similar it's not a stretch to think they can use the same techniques/processes to create their own assets with a different spin on them.

[Foxer]

Lolis and animals are from plenty of other games. Castanics are from Prius Online IIRC. The fact that there are 7 races that are so similar is what ties everything up though. Nothing seems to be stolen directly from it if you look at it one by one but entirely, it's right out of the Lineage sequel that was "supposed" to come out.

In my opinion, NC would have run that shit straight into the ground anyway so it really doesn't bother me unless it fucks more with their release date.

[madpersian]

I'm pretty sure you can use trade secrets to create models, texture maps, rigs, animation, VFX and all that (unless we're thinking of very different things). Since the concepts are very similar it's not a stretch to think they can use the same techniques/processes to create their own assets with a different spin on them.

Visual and maps and story are copyrightable. These are not trade secrets. Custom code can be considered trade secrets if they are protected and are not generally known in the industry. Perfect example is the ankle angling to align the food with uneven terrain. Stealing a trade secret is a criminal offense. It is industrial sabotage. If you get convicted of that in the US they can seize related assets and sell them.

Mind you that crime would not have occurred in the US so no worries there, but that's how NCSoft can get an injunction against TERA's release. The copyright infringement can be hell to prove because this stuff is so prevalent in fantasy games. It's the code the have to be worried about.

[Elcura]

Custom code can be considered trade secrets if they are protected and are not generally known in the industry.

This is what I was thinking about. And although it depends on the company, there's a lot of custom scripts/coding for artists to do their job. Stuff like shaders specifically come to mind, sculpting/baking/retopo can also use custom scripts and code, texturing not so much, but rigging and animation definitely has a fuck load of custom/unique scripts. A lot of that stuff is very specific to the company and/or engine, sometimes even the process of creating assets. Stealing trade secrets is not hard at all. I'm pretty sure I have stuff on my home computer (and a few USB drives) that I shouldn't have.

[madpersian]

I don't know much about programming but yeah all that stuff sounds like trade secrets if they are not generally known in the industry.

[Ambrosia]

Short Version:


If you look at just the art then it won't be a big impact, but rather how everything is incorporated into the game. This includes the coding, game engine and its customization, unique physical features, textures, body types, bone/skeletal structure which includes body movement/motion, etc. Let's just talk about races for the moment, and to be more specific lets use the High Elf/Light/Dark Elf for example. While the race itself has quite a bit of variations online, there are some key features that companies use that usually sets them apart from the rest. When you choose a Square Enix Online Elf, and play one in FFXI or FFXIV, you cannot mistake it for other Elves when comparing them to other MMOs. When you choose a NCSoft Elf, and play one in Lineage II or Aion(yes there are no Elves here but with the freedom allowed you can create one with very similar looks) and compare them to what Lineage III was and what TERA Online is, you cannot mistake it for other Elves as well. I am talking specifically about body types, skeletal structure, motion and everything mentioned in the 2nd sentence of this paragraph. (I will go into more detail in the long version answer as well as talk a tiny bit of the F2P MMOs impact).

[Ambrosia]

Very Long Answer:


As with most fantasy MMOs many use similar types of races, and Elves are definitely up there as one of the more common types. Companies incorporate various popular mythology and use many characteristics such as: "Fair" skin/features, slender and tall, higher cheekbones, longer necks, leaf shaped ears etc.) into their games. I broke it down a bit because I am not going to look through all 550 MMOs. Simply put I am not getting paid for this and it was more of a curiosity than anything else.


I.

There are currently 550 MMOs for the NA/EU market (more or less).


II.

470 of those MMOs are F2P.


III.

45 MMOs are in the $4.99-$9.99 range.

Believe it or not only 4 of those 45 MMOs actually were released past 2007 so most of them, if not all cannot incorporate the level of character detail that Lineage III/TERA Online can so I didn't bother looking any further. Most of these MMOs can be considered 2nd or 3rd rate as far as production/visual quality is concerned. Even the method of payment range is extremely unpopular post 2007.


IV.

35 MMOs are in the $12.00-$15.00 range.

I will be taking a look at these MMOs since both games can be categorized P2P as well as within this price range.


V.

Of the 35 MMOs 4 got cancelled so we won't include those


VI.

The remaining 31 can be broken down into their respective subgenres

Sci-Fi: 6 No Elves

Super Hero: 2 These do have Elves but c'mon

Historical: 2 No Elves

Sports: 1 No Elves

Fantasy: 20 Elves


VII.

Of the 20 Fantasy MMOs we can break it even further to ones that had Elves and ones that did not.


5 have No Elves

Asheron's Call 1999
Ragnarok Online 2002 Ellr: half breeds only
Age of Conan 2008
Aion 2009 No (Although with the freedom of the character creator you could "simulate" one)
Xsyon Earth 2011


15 have Elves


A. Ultima Online 1997
A. Lineage 1998
A. EverQuest 1999
A. Dark Age of Camelot 2001
B. Final Fantasy XI 2002
A. EverQuest Online Adventures 2003
A. Istaria: Chronicles 2003
A. EverQuest II 2004
A. World of Warcraft 2004
C. Lord of the Rings 2007
C. Vanguard 2007
C. Warhammer Online 2008
C. Darkfall 2009
B. Final Fantasy XIV 2010
D. Rift 2011


VIII.


A: Ultima Online, Lineage I, EverQuest I, Dark Age of Camelot, EverQuest Online Adventures, Istaria: Chronicles, EverQuest II, World of Warcraft can all be eliminated because technologically speaking it would be impossible for them to reach the level of detail that Lineage III/TERA are capable of and there would be no mistaking between the Elves using the various factors mentioned at the beginning of the post.


B: FFXI and FFXIV can be eliminated because they use their own presets and characteristics.


C: Lord of the Rings, Vanguard, Warhammer Online, Darkfall all follow very rigid rule sets heavily influenced by Tolkien mythology and the Dungeons & Dragons Universe.


D. Rift Elves seem a bit different although it still follows some rule sets. Didn't think could be classified in with the rest.


IX.

When you compare the NCSoft "Elves" the only games that come close from 1997-2011 are Aion/TERA/Lineage III/Lineage II. You cannot mistake these with the other games. To a smaller extent Blade & Soul: The Kun race. Combat is very different of course but looks has some similarities down to the leaf shaped ears to a lesser degree though. Even in their description they use quite a bit from High Elf lore.


Now with F2P models things get into the grey area rather quick. Prior to 2007 China, for the most part, didn't have the capability of creating games to the detail that NCSoft games were able to achieve or even close to the technical detail that Lineage III had envisioned. Of course in more recent years they were able to "acquire" technologies/game engines that allowed them to make leap and bounds strictly speaking in the representation and manipulation of visual image data. Granted not all of the this originates from China but a good portion does with the old saying: Why does China copy everything?


A few examples from various countries are games such as Prius Online and Perfect World and you can see that there are a few similarities. Things are getting much worse in the recent years. A much more drastic similarity would be Legend of Wukong Online. Characters have a very similar feel to Aion/TERA/Blade & Soul down to what seems a close copy of the Elin race and even one of the emotes from the videos. The battle system is said to be "very similar" to Blade & Soul. I think the Chinese were able to open up private servers of the game last year.

[JigglyJam]

I think you have too much time on your hands.

[Senji]

I think people are getting hung up on the "trade secrets." They didn't keep some drawings and some great ideas they had, they copied their NCSoft harddrives, set up shop down the street, and continued on the game that NCSoft had foot the bill on until then.

[Kaylia]

It'd only be similar if you also stole all the data. Not just your know how. That's the real issue. If the allegations are true. Seriously, the art and world and races isn't that big of a deal. It's the trade secrets that are a big deal. If true.

I completely agree, I simply mentioned the pictures because it's faster to show the influences L3 development had on Tera. The rest of the document also raised a few good points (and embellished many others) when comparing both game.

The allegations is obviously the important part, but you have to see the similarities between both games first to take them a little more seriously.

Stealing trade secrets is not hard at all. I'm pretty sure I have stuff on my home computer (and a few USB drives) that I shouldn't have.

This is probably true with anyone who signed a NDA lol.

[Hitoshura]

waiting for tera is gonna feel like the deluded virgin waiting for sex until marriage... but unlike the latter, tera will be WORTH the wait!

[Maaglin]

I just.....don't care. Get the fucking game out already.

[Shassira]

From the official forums, before they were taken down:
http://i39.tinypic.com/2dv0k7d.jpg