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Thread: The future of MMO's     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arelian View Post
    Also, FFXI is a pisspoor example of a game where VOIP is useful. It had it's time, sure, but it try doing any kind of "hardcore" raiding in WoW/Rift without being able to effectively communicate tank swaps within 2-3 seconds of each other. I can't think of a single person who can manage to continue building threat/running from something terrible/etc... against a difficult boss while still typing at any effective speed. You only have so many hands.
    Totally possible. You just have to be used to it.


    I like both VOIP and text chat and think having the option of both given to it's players is absolutely the way to go. The more communication you have with your teammates can only be a good thing. Sometimes VOIP is the superior mode of communication and other instances text chat is better for the situation. There's really no reason not to include it into your game.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyis. View Post
    Totally possible. You just have to be used to it.


    I like both VOIP and text chat and think having the option of both given to it's players is absolutely the way to go. The more communication you have with your teammates can only be a good thing. Sometimes VOIP is the superior mode of communication and other instances text chat is better for the situation. There's really no reason not to include it into your game.
    While I tend to agree with Arelian's reasoning, I agree with your position on the issue. I believe given a choice most (end-game) players would go with VOIP, but there are circumstances that prevent it (deaf, broken headset, etc). I find that even most people that don't talk on Vent or Mumble still listen on it. So you can still use text in those cases.

  3. #183

    Anyways, ignoring Ashmada since they're just shitting up the thread at this point...

    I typically hate VOs in MMOs. They're almost never done right and most devs use it as a way to not have engaging dialogue. SWTOR had decent VO work, though, and I appreciated it. GW2 has some really nice VO stuff being done, mainly with people chit-chatting in the cities as you walk around. It does wonders for immersion and wanting to just hang out in the cities.

    I guess my real stance with it is, do it 100% right or don't do it at all. Nothing makes a game more cringe-worthy than shitty voice acting. For example...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAtC1SzWSXg

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree View Post
    While I tend to agree with Arelian's reasoning, I agree with your position on the issue. I believe given a choice most (end-game) players would go with VOIP, but there are circumstances that prevent it (deaf, broken headset, etc). I find that even most people that don't talk on Vent or Mumble still listen on it. So you can still use text in those cases.
    Yeah, sometimes it's best to just STFU and let people talk. If you've got something to say type that shit out.

  5. #185
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    Looks like someone resorted to name-calling. The quips about my inability to read are particularly amusing given that I've been called "Greg" in two posts now, when my name clearly ends in a Y. I think that discussion is over.

    I think the main topic was discussing RP servers yeah? Here are my thoughts on that...

    Growing up I was a D&D player. Played at summer camp, with some friends I met online, gave it up in high school due to lack of a crowd, but picked it up through my last three years of college again. I've seen "real" RPers in my groups, and those just trying to get by with enough to please the DM and all shades in between. Through these same years I was playing MUDs too, which were full of life and RPers galore too.

    When I started playing MMOs the culture at the time understood RP and all the fanciful things that came with it. EverQuest (first mmo for me) had RP servers and games that followed thereafter for a short time did too. Something changed however and it became less acceptable as time passed. I've always felt, even as someone who did not RP very much at all, that the loss of this cultural aspect changed the format forever. Online gaming made RPing "gay", "annoying", and the rest because the majority did not accept it. The "RP" in "RPG" got muddied. I think this was all happening around the same time gaming took to the mainstream. I remember playing old Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior titles in grade/high school and being the outcast cuz clearly having fun "that way" was not cool. Then it became cool and all those same personalities that knocked it before embraced gaming for its entertainment value, but got to pick and choose which parts were considered the "new cool". RPing unfortunately was not in that category and it got shunted rather abruptly off to the side.

    So today we have a new culture. It is born out of internet and the personalities. Hating "gay shit" like Role Playing is the "in" thing to do. I don't see the genre ever thwarting that idea or reversing the trend in any way. Big gaming companies only pretend to support RPing and they usually do a fairly half-assed job of it too. As such, I don't believe RP has a future in MMORPGs. It's been tried in several different ways, but in the end, the majority who doesn't want it has it on the blacklist forever. Unless that suddenly changes (in whatever way you want to reason it--"fun factor", simple acceptance, etc.) it will remain that way. This sentiment is ever-present in communities as large as World of Warcraft, and as small as Final Fantasy Online. It's sad really, since games today, particularly mmos, were born out of the creative nature that an RP atmosphere once coddled. I liken it to our nation's (USA) general disregard for the elderly. Sure it's where we came from, but it's not considered important now, so let's put it (Role Playing) aside and visit it every few months just to make it think we still care (RP-servers).

    Thinking of all this makes me wish history had taken a different course and the RPers had had their way a bit more. Gaming would be a different kind of liberal than it is right now, and probably just a bit more fun overall.

  6. #186
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    *brofist*

  7. #187

    I prefer voice chat but I am not pushing it on anyone. If that's what you think, you are suffering from the same reading comprehension problems you are attributing to me. My argument is that it is better 100% of the time and to argue otherwise is folly. If you don't want to use voice chat, fine with me, just don't use strawman arguments to support your reasoning, while stating them as some objective fact they are not.
    In another post you also said text has no real advantages, but I'd like you to reread one of my earlier ones to that it's just not true. Ignoring the situation with my family or those with other RL responsibilities, I actually got a chuckle out of RT saying players should just play with speakers on low. That means, more than likely, to comfortably hear spoken words, you're drowning out game music and sound effects, which I went on to hint at being pivotal for negating the need of voice chat.

    Like I said earlier, preparation can offset any real need if you're playing with talented players that actually have the ability to think for themselves. If you want mindless raid sheep to plow you through to your own personal gear progression, great, but don't sit here and say you don't force people to choose and go on to say that's the how the way gaming will be and they should just suck it up or enjoy being excluded. That's screaming, loud and clear, one of the glaring flaws of MMO communities. Your way is not the only way, and it is not a case of mathematical superiority, but simple opinion.

    Overall, the name of the game tends to be reacting to actions. I proposed that it is in a developer's power to put everything a player could need to learn and know about a fight within the game itself. I can't speak for WoW, but Rift had mechanics were some boss abilities would get the ground highlighted where it would take effect. Sometimes these were easier to run out of than others, and others it was more of sign of where to stand relative to the tank. You could go on to discern possible move patterns where maybe stunning one would stop the rotation or the prior step(s) at least notifying the worst of it was coming. I also hinted at sound effects and will point out mob body language. We're past the days of everyone standing on Nidhogg's feet as he decides to Wing endlessly. Today's dragons, should they decide to breathe fire on us, should be visibly sucking in air, puffing their chest, and aiming toward their intended target. Cues like this can become common mob family traits, while quirks specific to bosses can be portrayed by lore for those who aren't just zerg rush kekekeekeke speed running. This info can come from quest related NPCs or some corpse's journal in the dungeon itself where they go on to talk about his group's failure along with his fear of impending death. That's just the beginning.

    Not to go all Varys and Game of Thrones riddle here, but the power of voice is an illusion you're choosing to give power to because you think it is the only and best way because of one negative against text. Meanwhile, you're gleefully ignoring its disadvantages and faults, claiming strawman. It must be a curiously maddening position to be in, seeing this debate for years and the same non-existent faults come from numerous unrelated individuals as if spouting wives' tales as fact. Or maybe there's just some willful ignorance going on. Either way, I doubt you've changed minds and still feel pushing for 100% mandatory use is toxic to the community.

  8. #188
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    Text doesn't have any real advantages.

    So you think because people use voice chat they aren't thinking for themselves. You think all those people who wear headset to play the hundreds of online games on the market are simply mindless sheep. You think I am telling people in my guild to log onto Teamspeak to further my own gear. Wow, just wow! You are truly a knowledgeable person about me to come in here and make a personal attack. Good show!

    The disadvantages and faults you and whoever else are presenting are GROSSLY exaggerated. If your PERSONAL situation does not accommodate voice chat, then that is YOUR problem. It does not mean there is a problem with voice chat in general. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on the subject, only show them how faulty their own logic is simply because "they don't want to" use voice chat. And that's what it comes down to every single time by the way. They, the person, do not approve of the use of voice chat, and then try to make it seem like it's bad for everyone to use. Pull your head out of your god damn ass lol

  9. #189

    Cmon be nice Greg!

    But seriously, its just a matter of comfort, I hate using voice chat personally, I am a shy person, Of course I will use it when needed because I do understand the advantages, but I rather type, Its just easier for me to express what I am trying to say. Even when I am using it I hardly say shit.

    From using voice chat I have also seen that it is easier to misunderstand people due to culture differences in tone and expressions. For example my wife an I are of different cultural backgrounds and when I get excited she swears I am shouting when to me I am not.

    I also think is stupid to argue about it, there is a place for everything. using text is not going anywhere anytime soon, and written language is in fact harder, and a more evolved form of communication than speech. This is what my parrot keeps telling me. jk

    Communicating in silence is even better than both.

    As far as voice chat and the future of mmos? Well no, its not something that is needed to further the genre but it does indeed help in the more competitive games.

    Also to note and I think its a good thing to keep separate if the arguing continues lol, is using voices within game dialogue vs text as opposed using voice chat to communicate vs. typing.

    There are definite pluses to having game and story line dialogue be well written text as opposed to voice overs, and there are pluses to voice overs also. The key is using both correctly.

  10. #190

    It isn't just a matter of not wanting to for everyone, and at the very least, that's what I've been trying to point out. By all means, hand wave and say one person's problems aren't your own and it's easier to not give a flying fuck and ignore any criticism they offer. Take your own advice and pull your head out there. At the very least, if you're gaming on a PC, you've got a keyboard. Headsets and microphones aren't standard equipment. But yes, it's nice to see you misinterpreted my scathing sarcasm when it comes to insinuating those who don't use voice are players who don't deserve to participate. Because surely they can't be instructed beforehand or think for themselves without someone barking into their ear, thus undeserving of exploring a facet of a game's content. No, fuck those fucking fuckers, that's their problem.

    Inclusion, not exclusion. Important.

  11. #191
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    I am not saying that because it is your problem that I don't give a flying fuck. You will note that most guilds who have some sort of voip "requirement" state so very plainly in either their application or rules pages. It is then up to the player to determine if that guild is the right fit for them. Unless there is a situation where all the following are true: 1) you cannot use voip for personal reasons and 2) you desire to be a part of an end game group to further yourself and 3) no guilds on your current server do not have such voip requirements, then the choice to use it is always up to the player. However to try and go against the grain and still join a guild that uses voip and be different by not logging into it during required times is plain rude and will be seen as such by those players. I probably don't have to go into this further as common sense should take over at this point.

    Let me make myself clear: I believe content should be accessible to everyone, regardless of a guild's (metagame) voip requirement. Just because someone does not use voip does not make them a second class citizen! That is not what I am saying, not by a fricking longshot. Everyone deserves to participate. In my gaming community we have a deaf players and two mutes. We do not tell those people they cannot game with us. Their skill, not their voices, were their merits for guild entry. But the reality of it is they wanted to be in our community, so they have to accommodate to us (and we do what we can for them, but really, what are our options here?). In that sense, it is their problem, and they find a way to game with us regardless of their disability. Inclusion is absolutely important and I do my best to make sure everyone can be included, but sometimes that means they need to help themselves as well.

    Voice chat is not always about instructing beforehand. It has a large reactionary component to it as well, particularly where dynamic content (good topic for discussion in this thread btw) is concerned. As the genre evolves (that is what we're talking about, stay on target), dynamic content will be even more so the norm than now, and voip has distinct advantages there over text in that regard. The ability to communicate with your voice is faster and reaches everyone listening, which they are assumed to be if they are logged in and not "away".

    EDIT: removed by request.

  12. #192

    When I was playing guild wars for the very first time, there were guilds that did not take people that did not use voice chat, did i fault them for that, not at all because I understand why. Like "Greg" said it is entirely my fault if I am not included. Its your choice to decided what type of people you want to play with. This is what the future of MMOs should be pushing, choice and options.

    PVE i doubt I will be using voice chat much, PVP in any form I think its needed, especially if you are taking it seriously.

    and you two need to stop arguing lol

  13. #193

    Arguing might not be the right word. I'm just mainly against the expectation without consideration, and I'm afraid my own personal experience with MMOs has not yielded much wiggle room. In the chance a player finds themselves on a server that won't respect their choice (or problems, as some may consider), it often means them paying extra to hop to another server (perhaps cutting ties with a few friends) where there is no guarantee they would find a good fit. I am not discounting the speed of voice as an advantage, but I also enjoy the persistence and clarity of text. Ideally, voice should not be required to play a game. Do not confuse this for a need to not communicate. Rather, players need to be better trained on the up, both by the game and their peers, so reactions are more like reflex than processed thought, of which voice offers its own delay of interpretation just like reading.

    Other issues like a sense of immersion or anonymity may be non-issues for some, but let's not pretend they don't exist. There's just little choice to be had when it's one way or GTFO and some are just so pro-voice they can't realize others are still capable of playing adequately.

  14. #194
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    It really depends on the game speed itself. Like text chat worked fine in FF11 because there wasn't many things where if you didn't react within a few seconds it was a wipe. Raiding in WoW you could technically do without VOIP, but honestly alot of those fights are much faster pace and when learning the content to get it on farm status, it was better to do it with voice, but that doesn't mean it was impossible. When trying to get our first kill on Illidan in Black Temple, 1 night we actually had issues with vent and it actually went down alittle before Phase 2(for those not familiar with it, this phase required some good coordination back then) and we actually went through it fine while we were still perfecting the fight because we were familiar with what everyones role was and used the chat efficiently.

    Would I ever do that again? No. If I had to, could I? Yes. Most top tier guilds probably require full use of VOIP still, but even in the guild I was in we had several people who rarely ever talked. Had 2 people from Singapore that only ever called out important debuffs placed on them sometimes, and even then it wasn't really necessary because Deadly Boss Mods rarely missed calling it out on everyones screen. If the VOIP client dies midfight no real guild is going to just say "ok lets waste time and wipe and run back", they keep going and use the chat.

    I'm pretty much gonna just cosign what someone else said; for PvE it's helpful but not really necessary if the player is competent and doesn't type slow, for PvP it is extremely helpful and I wouldn't do a serious PvP matchup without it. Ideally a mixture of both is actually best for PvE since the text with chat timers is nice for fights with time sensitive phases incase a mod acts up(which happened every now and then using DBM).

  15. #195

    That actually reminds me, if a game supports add-ons, often it can further negate the "need" for voice or even manual text input.

  16. #196
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    It can mitigate it but nothing will ever really replace communication imo. Also not everyone will use a ton of add-ons. There is probably as large or larger a crowd against the over-use of add-ons as there many "client purists" out there. Will add more when home.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleverness View Post
    but honestly alot of those fights are much faster pace and when learning the content to get it on farm status, it was better to do it with voice
    That right there is when i would expect people to use voip. At the very least just to hear what's going on, but I would never force someone to speak if they were uncomfortable. If we're about to spend the next 4 hours wiping on a boss while figuring out mechanics, it's really unfair having 18 other people waiting on shit to get typed out for that 1 or 2 people that don't like voip. Trying to type strats on the fly should they need to change mid battle is impossible. For PVp, it's a must.

    The entire voip conversation shouldn't even be an issue as long as guilds let everyone know if they're expected so players can join ones they're comfortable with.

  18. #198
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    Guys, you're both wrong. Visual communication is the best. Yes, you know what I'm saying...

    Sign language, but only with in-game character emotes.

    But in all seriousness, a future MMO should have both text and voice, that way, the player can use whatever the hell he or she prefers. I personally like both and was able to effectively yell (caps lock in the name of Doshu) in XI as a tank via text. However, I'm much better at yelling at my friends via headset in Call of Duty. It has really helped in a lot of clutch moments where text could not possibly make it in time. Also, I know there isn't text in CoD (maybe PC?), I'm just using it as an example. People make fun of me for my Texan accent, though. Those bastards.

    For RP, I personally don't like it. I really think it creates a barrier between people who are striving for one common goal. It also allows a person to remain completely anonymous and gives them an excuse to be a complete douche. Why'd you steal that E. Body? Well my RP guy is a thief so I have to be evil and conniving! I, personally, create a much stronger bond with a person who doesn't RP and reveals a bit more than what a person can see on his or her character.

  19. #199

    RPing doesn't mean you never interact out of character. Jackass thief can easily attempt to ninja lot an item without RP involved, either. Just replace "It's in my character!" with "Well, the game let me lot, so I did!" or "Oops, I meant to pass."

    The latter can be remedied by some games allowing trades to valid participants within a short window, but if they don't, you pretty much know it wasn't an accident.

  20. #200
    Onto plan B...
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    True, to me, it just seems to add another layer of anonymity on an already depreciating community.

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