The future of MMO's

[Lordender]

Calling GW2 anything close to WoW is an insult imo, I played the GW2 BETA, it was nothing like WoW at least to me.

[Rhyis.]

I call it a mix between Monster Hunter and Borderlands personally. It plays like MH, but has the class archtype of Borderlands in that every class is a damage dealer first with various other skills that can be used as support. Also they threw in a second wind clone, which is just awesome.

[Qalbert]

One nice thing about moving away from the holy trinity is that you're a lot freer in what class you can play. When I (briefly) played WoW I was like ok I want to be a healer and everyone was like oh class x is the best healer if you play anything else you will be shitty, etc. I'm all for moving away from the "this is the only effective way to do X" attitude. And yeah, I know that';; always be part of MMOs to some extent, holy trinity or not, people love to min/max. But as long as my character build isn't being dictated as "the only viable one" idgaf.

[Alderaan]

[QUOTE=ringthree;5149530 The roleless system is no different than SWTOR's "innovative" story-telling, or WARs "innovative" PvP, or... etc. Icing on the cake, as I said.[/QUOTE]

As Qalbert and Isiolia are trying to explain, you seem to not understand how combat works. Instead of tank/dps/heals you have control/avoidance/soft CC. In essence, you still have roles, they're just not hard coded to classes. It's not that everyone can just do everything, it's that everyone can fill a role and that's huge.

You're not going to be clearing and dungeons if everyone is just specced into pure DPS and not swapping weapons. Your group dynamic becomes more specialized and important and needs to be discussed before an encounter instead of just tank holding hate and healers spamming heals. Everyone in the group is responsible for keeping themselves alive, but that doesn't mean they don't have a roll to play. If anything, it brings more skill into play as you can't just have a bunch of dps sitting in the back pew-pewing away and not paying attention. No more blaming tanks or healers for their own deaths. That right there is worth the price of the box for me.

[Isiolia]

So, you are just repeating things I have already read about the game? Then we are just looking at differences in interpretation of the same data.

I don't recall saying definitively either way whether I've played the beta, given that beta participation itself is covered by the NDA.

Upcoming beta events, however, won't have an NDA, and will be open to everyone that pre-purchased, so...I'm sure there will be plenty of hands-on impressions then that don't need to try and dance around legal documents.

[Renzokuken]

(I have no idea what he means by 10)

10. Event planners that can nearly eliminate down time before events.

This would be a system, available both in and out of game (via a website) where you can tailor events to your needs, perhaps days in advance.

The format might look something like:

1. Type of event: instance, world boss, group quest, etc.
2. Who can join?: Guild only, open invite, etc.
3. Starting time: Set the EXACT starting time of the event.
4. Starting location: Instance entrance, starting quest NPC, ect.

There may be a lot of other useful peripheral information to include, but these are the basics.

Once you plan the event, people can then sign up, and as long as they are online at the EXACT start time, everyone will be auto-grouped and warped to the event starting location.

In the case of open world events (if we're talking a single server), such as world bosses or quests, a new channel in that zone will be created giving the group a brief window to complete content without the worries of being blocked by other players.

I hope this gives a decent picture of what I am trying to envision, but let me know if it's not clear.

Edit: Also, echoing a poster above, aren't developers shying away from world bosses now anyways? Just take a look at all the FFXI content in the past 2 years. Do players even what that type of content anymore?

[ringthree]

The game is more like Monster Hunter then it is WoW.

Dodge rolls are such a simple addition to any RPG, and I've never understood why games rarely put them in. It drastically increases the skill level of any fight encounter, and by extension your enjoyment level. Tank and spank is a bad formulaic design. Better to have your players need to actually dodge to avoid damage, not a mathematical equation that the game decides for you. It makes the gameplay feel more fluid and dynamic.

I believe this mostly has to do with lag and latency. Twitch based play doesn't do so well when your entire teams survival is based on your latency.

[Rhyis.]

Yeah I could see that being true a few years ago, but nowadays, that should be irrelevant. Game servers and internet speeds are pretty much peaked.

[Isiolia]

I believe this mostly has to do with lag and latency. Twitch based play doesn't do so well when your entire teams survival is based on your latency.

Plenty of games do place a lot of value on correctly timing stuns/interrupts, clutch heals, and so on, which would also be a matter of latency. I agree it's likely a consideration for keeping a game accessible to a variety of connections, but it also seems like something that developers could be incorporating more as bandwidth increases.

To a point, it's also probably intentional, to keep players reliant on gear/stats they need to grind for.

[Viq]

I believe this mostly has to do with lag and latency. Twitch based play doesn't do so well when your entire teams survival is based on your latency.

I think this might be part of why western MMOs are still stuck in the current model while modern eastern MMOs, specifically Korean, are becoming more action-oriented. When I was playing TERA in Korea, for example, I was as far from the server as possible while still being in mainland Korea. My ping was 3ms. That kind of connection just isn't viable yet for a number of reasons for areas as large as NA.

[ringthree]

As Qalbert and Isiolia are trying to explain, you seem to not understand how combat works. Instead of tank/dps/heals you have control/avoidance/soft CC. In essence, you still have roles, they're just not hard coded to classes. It's not that everyone can just do everything, it's that everyone can fill a role and that's huge.

You're not going to be clearing and dungeons if everyone is just specced into pure DPS and not swapping weapons. Your group dynamic becomes more specialized and important and needs to be discussed before an encounter instead of just tank holding hate and healers spamming heals. Everyone in the group is responsible for keeping themselves alive, but that doesn't mean they don't have a roll to play. If anything, it brings more skill into play as you can't just have a bunch of dps sitting in the back pew-pewing away and not paying attention. No more blaming tanks or healers for their own deaths. That right there is worth the price of the box for me.

I completely understand the concept. I just believe the concept is a step in the wrong direction of MMO development. Homogenization is bad, umkay?

Does anyone really read what anyone else writes? Or do they just see a criticism of GW2, and then reexplain the class system because they think its awesome?

Let me step back, and reemphasize the basis of my argument. There needs to be a hardcore option in MMO's, and even further than that niche roles for MMO's is a good thing. Trying to appeal to everyone (letting all classes do everything, even if they can focus on one thing or the other for a short period) while it seems awesome on paper, is just trying to do what Blizzard already does, and does it far better than everyone else.

Back to GW2 for a second: If everyone in a group is responsible for keeping themselves alive, and (as I have seen reported in multiple places) anyone can tank a fight at least for a while, and everyone can DPS, then, as I said over a page ago, you have a situation where you just have 10 different people hitting a boss without any need of internal group coordination.

You say you need group coordination, and then you say it takes more skill because you have to be personally responsible for everything in a fight. Which is it? Maybe GW2 has reached this magical middle ground of group cohesion and individually skillful play? Or maybe it's just more hype.

As every MMO coming out makes such claims, and every MMO coming out never lives up to the hype, you can understand why I will remain a bit skeptical (especially when potential GW2 players tend to treat the game as the second coming of Christ).

That said, I sure hope to God that it is the second coming of Christ. I really do want it to be innovative and balanced and interesting. I am just a bit jaded to buy the hype yet.

[ringthree]

I think this might be part of why western MMOs are still stuck in the current model while modern eastern MMOs, specifically Korean, are becoming more action-oriented. When I was playing TERA in Korea, for example, I was as far from the server as possible while still being in mainland Korea. My ping was 3ms. That kind of connection just isn't viable yet for a number of reasons for areas as large as NA.

Korea also has a fucking wicked internet infrastructure from what I understand, while the US is mish-mash of different networks, connectivity and even some artificial throttles. But I really don't know shit about connectivity. Shit, people have been playing Counter-Strike for fucking years on dial-up.

[ringthree]

Plenty of games do place a lot of value on correctly timing stuns/interrupts, clutch heals, and so on, which would also be a matter of latency. I agree it's likely a consideration for keeping a game accessible to a variety of connections, but it also seems like something that developers could be incorporating more as bandwidth increases.

To a point, it's also probably intentional, to keep players reliant on gear/stats they need to grind for.

Well, "don't stand in the fucking fire" is definitely a dodge mechanic, so it's not like they don't exist now even in the dodge sense. I think the problem with the dodge mechanic is that you could potentially defeat the purpose of an entire fight if you were to dodge everything. There has to be some kind of hitting of the players. Not to mention the bots and shit that would be used to avoid all damage, etc.

Just some quick thoughts on the matter, haven't really considered it that much.

[Appie]

Back to GW2 for a second: If everyone in a group is responsible for keeping themselves alive, and (as I have seen reported in multiple places) anyone can tank a fight at least for a while, and everyone can DPS, then, as I said over a page ago, you have a situation where you just have 10 different people hitting a boss without any need of internal group coordination.

You say you need group coordination, and then you say it takes more skill because you have to be personally responsible for everything in a fight. Which is it? Maybe GW2 has reached this magical middle ground of group cohesion and individually skillful play? Or maybe it's just more hype.

I think they mean that in GW2 you have the basic survival skills covered by each job, but teaming up with other jobs and combining skills for more damage, better buffs and whatnot is what takes coordination. For lack of a better example: take MNK from FFXI. It has basic survival skills, could tank, could dd, it even came with a cure ability, but teamed up with other jobs it could for example skillchain. GW2 pretty much has a fuckload of options to "skillchain" for different effects.

[Rhyis.]

Back to GW2 for a second: If everyone in a group is responsible for keeping themselves alive, and (as I have seen reported in multiple places) anyone can tank a fight at least for a while, and everyone can DPS, then, as I said over a page ago, you have a situation where you just have 10 different people hitting a boss without any need of internal group coordination.

This is the part you're not understanding, and everyone is trying to make you understand. Which makes me shake my head because GW2 class archtype isn't even a new concept in the genre. I guess you simply need to play a MMO that doesn't have the holy trinity archtype like Anarchy Online, etc to really get it.

As an aside, even if what you said was true (and it isn't, as I've actually played MMOs with this style of class systems) there are FFXI style skillchain type stuff to keep you busy while you pew pew. It's done in a more dynamic way however as most spells are persistent style AoEs. So a mage can say, use a spell that drops fire under his feet and create a line of fire, then a ranger can shoot an arrow ability through said fire, and voila you're got yourself a skillchain. So instead of having a predetermined ability you hit at time A and your teammate hits at time B, you've got to pay attention to team member spells and abilities that are being used around you with your own eyes, and you can enhance those abilities with your own. IE: team work, but done in a more dynamic way.

You say you need group coordination, and then you say it takes more skill because you have to be personally responsible for everything in a fight. Which is it? Maybe GW2 has reached this magical middle ground of group cohesion and individually skillful play? Or maybe it's just more hype.

This is just silly. All MMOs include using group coordination and being personally responsible for your own life. WoW, FFXI, etc. That's what MMORPG boss fights are about.

Fire under your feet? You gotta move or you're going to die. Doesn't matter if you're a healer, dps, or tank. Boss is going to use some breathe attack that requires the the whole group to shift? You've got to move with your team (coordination) and at the same time you're responsible for not standing in the breathe so you don't die (personal responsibility).


It seems to me like you're just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, as your criticisms aren't even real criticisms.

[tol]

it's pretty pointless to try to explain anything to someone who wishes to remain ignorant by choice.

[ringthree]

I think the problem is that some of you have decided you like GW2, which is completely fine, and are focusing on that rather than my greater point. I have tried to redirect the discussion a couple of times, but the sole focus of the responses to my posts has been only about my initial comments about GW2. I will just drop the discussion of GW2 as that was never my intended focus of discussion, until I get some play time because I have a feeling we all have the same amount of play time in the GW2 as of now.

Since several of you missed my positive comments about GW2 (intentionally not including in quotes the parts where I say it looks like a good game that I want to try out), let me again reemphasize that I do want to try this game, am signed up for the beta, and there are many aspects of it that I am looking forward to playing.

[Rhyis.]

People get what you're trying to say, that the homogenization of classes is bad. But there's no evidence to support said theory. Lots of games use said concept and are quite enjoyable to play. FPSMMOs specifically thrive on this concept.

Hell, my favourite MMO UO is exactly that to the very extreme. No classes and no archtypes at all. You can be whatever the hell you want to be with whatever the hell skills you want.

[Takiwaki]

Wow I missed all this?

As long as there is the Tank DD healer system in place someone is gonna get shafted. I don't know how homogenization can be a step in the wrong direction when, the time It takes me seeking for a party not getting invites cus I do not want to play the job everyone rather have, I can already be wrecking shit with my friends cus the jobs I like to play can do whatever it needs to.

What many folks do not seem to see is that, there is more to just role and class, there is also playstyle, just because every job can do everything does not mean they do it the same way, this is where the coordination comes into play. Also (this is in gw2) because you cannot be 100% capacity in every single role at every single point in time, there will always be coordination between party members to who handles what and when, at any given point in time, which can constantly change depending on the scenario. This I think is freaking awesome.

calling it now but I do think ringthree in 3 weeks time when the beta event is over will totally change his tune. Anyone taking bets?

[Ashmada]

What is short-sighted about a system where one character can theoretically gain every skill? Again, look at EVE. While I certainly am not a fan of the real-time skill gain method that the game uses, it's system of allowing any character to learn any skill, assuming they meet the pre-requisites, is anything but short-sighted. It allows newer players to specialize in order to play a role alongside players that have been playing for years, which does a great job at eliminating the problem of "Oh, my buddy wants to play but we can't play together yet" that most games suffer. It also allows long-time players to have new goals to work towards, and also allows them to be more flexible by being able to fill whatever role their current group may need.

It's extremely short-sighted to go on a "waaaah, I can't do everything! Waaaaaaaah I can't the uber tank of mighty damage and healing and master of crowd control all at once!" tantrum.
If you got everything you want in a MMO, you wouldn't play long, unless your goal is just to show off that you "can, in fact, do everything" and you're "much better than the others, so there!"

Personally, I wouldn't play munchkin online. Gimme a company that understands why strong race & class identity is a good thing any day of the week over bland, boring uniformity.
That's just my preference, I realise I'm in the minority.

Dodge rolls are such a simple addition to any RPG, and I've never understood why games rarely put them in.

Because they're RPGs? I remember the days where you could play an action game when you wanted and a RPG when you wanted... what do we gain by merging every genre into one?
I like action games, but sometimes I want to play a formula-heavy menu-heavy game... and that's what makes a RPG, not the fantasy setting (Skyrim was no more a RPG than Heretic/Hexen*).


Maybe you don't like games (and most newer gamers don't, apparently, so don't worry you're in the majority) but that doesn't mean having a choice is a bad thing.
Just because you don't like a genre doesn't mean it has to die out.
Diversity isn't a bad thing.

It drastically increases the skill level of any fight encounter, and by extension your enjoyment level.

When did "skill" become a synonym for "dexterity"? Why does every game need to challenge your dexterity? Once again, why this hatred for diversity of gameplay and choice?

Tank and spank is a bad formulaic design.

Click-fest is even more formulaic and frankly just dumb.

Better to have your players need to actually dodge to avoid damage, not a mathematical equation that the game decides for you. It makes the gameplay feel more fluid and dynamic.

Which is great when playing DMC, but once again, not all games should be that way.



*cue idiots laughing.



Edit: Ironically enough, the MMO I'm currently playing:
- Is somewhat dexterity-based. Gotta keep those fleeties in the firing arc of mah cannons.
- Has a weak race definition. You get 4 traits, some fixed by race or you create a new species and pick any in a list. Traits don't have that big an impact on gameplay.
- Has a weak class definition. There are a few class-specific abilities, but most depend on your ship/bridge officers (you can re-arrange boffs however you like) and you can freely pick your passives, regardless of class.
- Is on a single server (but crowded zones are instanced).