The future of MMO's

[Takiwaki]

Who is Rhys? I don't see his comments =/

[Ashmada]

My bad, it's Rhyis.

[Rhyis.]

Because they're RPGs? I remember the days where you could play an action game when you wanted and a RPG when you wanted... what do we gain by merging every genre into one?
I like action games, but sometimes I want to play a formula-heavy menu-heavy game... and that's what makes a RPG, not the fantasy setting (Skyrim was no more a RPG than Heretic/Hexen*).


Maybe you don't like games (and most newer gamers don't, apparently, so don't worry you're in the majority) but that doesn't mean having a choice is a bad thing.
Just because you don't like a genre doesn't mean it has to die out.
Diversity isn't a bad thing.

What are you talking about? The "second" generation of all MMORPGs (post MUD era... so first generation of MMORPGs technically) started out as action oriented. Ultima Online had absolutely no menu combat at all. It wasn't until years later, when EQ came out, that this style of MMORPG was re-introduced into the genre.

FYI, action RPGs have been around for as long as the RPG genre has been around. Zelda, etc. This isn't some new thing. Formula/menu heavy combat does not a RPG make. If you want to start going down the purity road, then MMORPGs need to be scorned for not going down the turn based path as well... I don't like the purity conversation because once you start going down that road, you're actively trying to take things away from your game. Which is down right backwards thinking. New things can always be introduced, or re-introduced, to a game genre. It can always be improved upon. Always.

When did "skill" become a synonym for "dexterity"? Why does every game need to challenge your dexterity? Once again, why this hatred for diversity of gameplay and choice?

Because dexterity is the definition of what skill is in any video game. Doing said action at correct time to complete the perfect objective. That's the very definition of skill in a video game. Otherwise it's a MUD. Which I absolutely adore, don't get me wrong. But it's not skill oriented and it's not a MMORPG either. It's something else entirely and purely strategy based.

[Rhyis.]

Rhys is a fag... Rhyis too.

[Ashmada]

I'd consider strategy a skill. Btw, I don't care about "purity". Just having diverse genres.

If you need an analogy: I enjoy the odd action movie, but I don't think putting Van Damme in Amistad would've improved the final product.


Wait, who am I kidding? There's no movie that wouldn't be improved by Van Damme kicking a dude's head off. Oh, well, pretty the analogy worked.

[Rhyis.]

Every movie genre has like a million sub-genres nowadays so you're analogy actually completely works against what you're saying. They're using swords in space now dawg. Just sayin'.

And strategy and skill are very different when referencing gaming. Gaming strategy is the intelligence to overcome an obstacle with minimal amount of determent to you and your group, or maximize your own or groups efficiency. Gaming skill is the ability to actually perform the strategy in a live setting. The two do not necessarily have to coincide at all.

I think we've all met people that are only proficient at one or the other.

[Viq]

It's extremely short-sighted to go on a "waaaah, I can't do everything! Waaaaaaaah I can't the uber tank of mighty damage and healing and master of crowd control all at once!" tantrum.
If you got everything you want in a MMO, you wouldn't play long, unless your goal is just to show off that you "can, in fact, do everything" and you're "much better than the others, so there!"

Personally, I wouldn't play munchkin online. Gimme a company that understands why strong race & class identity is a good thing any day of the week over bland, boring uniformity.
That's just my preference, I realise I'm in the minority.

What is this... I don't even...

Using EVE as an example again, because it's the game with this kind of system that I have the most experience with, even if you learn every skill in the game you can't be all things at once. While it's possible to be able to pilot any ship in that game, it's not possible to pilot more than one at a time. While it's possible to build a character that has high skills in combat, crafting and mining, it's not possible for your character to be doing all at the same time. It's not a system that's designed to allow for ultra strong characters to dominate or wave their e-peens. It's a system that rewards specialization initially, yet allows for flexibility later on. It's a system that allows players to make the character that they want in order to play the game in the manner in which they gain the most enjoyment. It should also be noted that the game is 6+ years old, and no one has reached the skill cap yet.

[arus2001]

I know I've joked about this before, but a bolder step in revolutionizing the MMO genre should actually involve how a player interfaces with the game. I've commonly used the example of what .hack tries to depict through this, as a sort of sensory immersive experience between the headset and controller, but as of right now, it's obvious similar and reasonably priced tech really isn't there. That said, keyboard/mouse, pure mouse or keyboard, and a controller all have their limitations. I personally preferred the freedom full keyboard offered with XI, but it seems like it's been such a minority concept in games that mouse use is almost always enforced.

I didn't really touch on motion controls like with the Wii or Kinect because I dislike them as they are now. In concept, playing Link and swinging your arm around to use his sword sounds cool, but what we've gotten has been awkward and even highlighting flaws of what's present. My own personal gaming space isn't very big, so motion controls can also be iffy by default. I am, perhaps, curious about what Google's goggle thingy draws out of the industry, as eye reading, head motion, and voice recognition can add a control layer to existing (at least non-motion) methods. I can see great potential in head movement basically being your camera control, while sounds can be emitted in certain ways to emulate location from an origin. It's not Ghost in the Shell neural interface style, but a start.

[Rhyis.]

We're still a long way away from Killobyte becoming a reality.

[arus2001]

I can dream. ;_;

[Inactive]

I think Jon Peters said it best in the Future of Online games panel. Casual or hardcore, easy or difficult. It doesn't matter as long as the game is fun. If it's not fun, people aren't going to play it.

This really sums up how I feel. When I look back at FFXI especially in the later stages, nothing was really 'difficult'. Gathering people and getting claims were harder than just about every fight, but the sheer amount of stuff to do when I logged on is what made the game fun. Where as with something like WoW I log into town, queue up for my weekly raid and when it's complete there is nothing really beneficial to do (character progression wise). Every new raid makes the previous completely obsolete and not worth doing, which really kills the amount of content.

That being said seeking in FFXI was a total nightmare. I like being able to log on and quest to the level cap on my own time, but the community aspect gets totally thrown out the window. I'd like some kind of middle ground where you can effectively grind solo to the level cap, but you'd benefit a lot more by grouping. I don't know how exactly to accomplish that, but maybe someone will figure it out.

Lastly if any game can come even remotely close to the fluidity of WoW's controls they will immediately put themselves ahead of the curve imo. SWORT, Aion, FFXI, Rift, and from the looks of it GW2 all have clunky as hell character control. WoW is akin to an FPS with how quick and responsive everything is. I've yet to play a game that I felt that comfortable in as soon as I hit go.

[Dryr]

What I would do is group the first 10 levels into a single "rank" and limit the stat gains available within the rank. Then, when the player ranks up, they would receive a sizable stat gain all at once. This keeps players on a more level playing field for a longer period of time, and in essence defragments the player base.

Sounds great. But, isn't that the same thing as making the level range 1-7 instead of 1-70?

At the higher levels, the addition of new abilities every few hours has the same draw as loot at endgame. Removing that reward system levels 4-7, requiring several days of play between upgrades, is game suicide unless you are also suggesting that the leveling to max is also reduced to a pitence of time.

Not everyone plays mmos for the endgame. In fact, I know serial levelers that get bored after capping and quit repeatedly or start another class.

Several of the other problems you pointed out were already combated in WoW. Hero classes (there will be more) let you start half-way to the cap. Cross realm friend and/or LFG/LFR have effortless group creation where only DPS may have to wait 5-20 minutes. Crafting is a little archaic, but that has to do with perpetuating the economy.

Getting into massive amounts of customization, well, that can serve as immersion, but it also creates a daunting atmosphere and learning curve that many just wouldn't get hooked on.


I could ramble on... Some good points, but it's all just criticism and lofty ideas, not functional mechanics.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Glad to see this thread off-shoot from our prior discussion. Sad that it was split from that thread though. Oh well.

Since crafting was mentioned, I felt like chiming in. Just as we were previously discussing fundamental designs being flawed through endless copypasta, the same really could be said about crafting.

It seems as though when the mmo gurus sit down they always include the "standard package"-levels, classes (specs within), etc. and crafting always seems to get called in too. What the crap is the deal already? Not a single game has figured out a good, long-lasting method of keeping crafting worthwhile for the life of the mmo. It's kind of similar to sitting at level cap and completing all content. You're just waiting for the next batch of recipes. But what's it matter since at the same time you get new recipes, new raids will be added to obsolete it anyway. Yeah players will make a few bucks here and there, but just as how as the life of the game progresses more players hit level cap, so too will more people max out your craft of choice and undercut you like a bitch.

Crafting just seems pointless over the long haul. It's almost unfortunate that it fits perfectly into the immersion model of medieval fantasy, and science fiction to a degree. It always get included and it makes me wonder "Why?". It's just become another stagnant feature in this genre that seems to be chasing its own tail.

[Nevex]

Take Skyrim, a game that is pretty much all about quantity over quality and add an online feature. That's how a successful MMORPG works.
They're purposely designed to be as addictive as they get and as long as there are people willing to pay to play them there won't be significant changes in the genre.
WOW is the reason MMORPGs are stagnating. As mediocre as it is, it works and that's good enough for the developers.

[ringthree]

calling it now but I do think ringthree in 3 weeks time when the beta event is over will totally change his tune. Anyone taking bets?

Don't get me wrong, I really hope that is the case. I want innovation and fun.

Then again, if it's not the case, I doubt those that are supporting the game style of GW2 will admit so. Avoidance of cognitive dissonance and all.

[ringthree]

Because dexterity is the definition of what skill is in any video game.

This is definitely not true. Or at least your definition of dexterity is so broad as to include things that Asmada isn't including. I don't know if timing (stuns) or movement (don't stand in the fire) should be included in the same group as dodge based play. I don't necessarily use the term dexterity for this. I would more call it twitch based play.

The difference is pretty important. Your example of UO doesn't really fit into the twitch-based idea of game play so it isn't really a good counterargument.

Could you give a definition of what you believe dexterity means to you, because I think we might actually agree that some "dexterity" requirement is good, but just differ on how much should be in a game (because of technical limitations or because of individual player skill issues).

[Lordender]

WOW is the reason MMORPGs are stagnating. As mediocre as it is, it works and that's good enough for the developers.

WoW still has the best gameplay out of any MMO I've ever played. The problem with WoW is Blizzard doesn't produce content fast enough, the game has aged very well for being almost 8 years old. I think people are clearly naive to not think Titan is Blizzards new baby, I believe despite what Blizzard's brass tells the public, all their top talent is on Titan while they use WoW to train newer blood. WoW is suffering and stagnating because of its age and Titan has all of their focus, you're not gonna see ANY innovation with WoW when they have Titan on the horizon as the next flagship. I also believe Blizzard has been secretly testing the F2P model using WoW's cash shop for pets and mounts which results Titan being F2P.

Another main problem with Blizzard is that they try too hard to please everyone instead of knowing its impossible, this is a major problem with MMO's going forward. It becomes impossible for dev's to make the best game possible when you have your hardcore players blowing through new content in 1-3 weeks while your casual players do the same on the easiest difficulty setting which leads to a content patch being blasted in around 3 weeks time with a 5-6 month wait until new stuff comes out. MMO's were always games that weren't for everyone, when companies tried to make them for everyone the genre took a major hit.

I think another major problem with MMO's going forward is companies are looking at sub numbers from mid 2008 when WoW was peaking due to the 30% nerfs to "The Burning Crusade" raid content. "Wrath of the Lich King" made a dramatic change with how players experienced raiding which resulted sub numbers spiking at 12-13million. All these new companies see the potential, success is a copycat business so they clone WoW up to 85% then try to throw a unique spin on it.

The consequences in copying WoW: Your game is nearly 8 years old at release, players have been there and done that since 2004. All these "WoW clones" seem to just flounder about after the initial free month wears off because its a gimper WoW at the end of the day, most end up returning to WoW.

[ringthree]

WoW still has the best gameplay out of any MMO I've ever played. The problem with WoW is Blizzard doesn't produce content fast enough, the game has aged very well for being almost 8 years old. I think people are clearly naive to not think Titan is Blizzards new baby, I believe despite what Blizzard's brass tells the public, all their top talent is on Titan while they use WoW to train newer blood. WoW is suffering and stagnating because of its age and Titan has all of their focus, you're not gonna see ANY innovation with WoW when they have Titan on the horizon as the next flagship. I also believe Blizzard has been secretly testing the F2P model using WoW's cash shop for pets and mounts which results Titan being F2P.

Another main problem with Blizzard is that they try too hard to please everyone instead of knowing its impossible, this is a major problem with MMO's going forward. It becomes impossible for dev's to make the best game possible when you have your hardcore players blowing through new content in 1-3 weeks while your casual players do the same on the easiest difficulty setting which leads to a content patch being blasted in around 3 weeks time with a 5-6 month wait until new stuff comes out. MMO's were always games that weren't for everyone, when companies tried to make them for everyone the genre took a major hit.

I think another major problem with MMO's going forward is companies are looking at sub numbers from mid 2008 when WoW was peaking due to the 30% nerfs to "The Burning Crusade" raid content. "Wrath of the Lich King" made a dramatic change with how players experienced raiding which resulted sub numbers spiking at 12-13million. All these new companies see the potential, success is a copycat business so they clone WoW up to 85% then try to throw a unique spin on it.

The consequences in copying WoW: Your game is nearly 8 years old at release, players have been there and done that since 2004. All these "WoW clones" seem to just flounder about after the initial free month wears off because its a gimper WoW at the end of the day, most end up returning to WoW.

Very good post. WoW does have problems, and it process is formulaic, but it is one that works and you don't kill the goose that lays golden eggs. WoW is the best thing on the market right now (you may be bored of it, but that doesn't mean it isn't the best, the numbers don't lie), but that doesn't mean we can't have better. The problem is that we won't have better until people stop copying a system that is over 8 years old, OR (as I have said before) they move toward a more niche market with a more focused aim at a group of players (e.g. the hardcore).

[Illsathe]

That being said seeking in FFXI was a total nightmare. I like being able to log on and quest to the level cap on my own time, but the community aspect gets totally thrown out the window. I'd like some kind of middle ground where you can effectively grind solo to the level cap, but you'd benefit a lot more by grouping. I don't know how exactly to accomplish that, but maybe someone will figure it out.

Are you talking about benefits other than speed/ease of leveling? If you're talking about other things, could you give some sort of example?

[arus2001]

Crafting will always play second fiddle to dungeon/raid drops as long as companies insist upon monsters dropping completed armor (that's almost always superior to crafted counterparts). Crafting, or even questing, can be better integrated into these activities, but the former tends to introduce the problem of twinking where characters who never touch a given content could get fully geared from it if they're rich or lucky enough. Some sort of safe guards could be installed (like having a given title from a given monster), but even that isn't perfect. Still, if my earlier rant wasn't an indication, I am loathe of one source for a given thing, especially when said source is out of reach for a player for reasons beyond their control.