The future of MMO's

[Viq]

While I admit to not knowing a ton about this game, I believe Vanguard's crafting remained viable for quite some time. That game required multiple crafters to work together to make things like ships for their guild, so they kept crafting relevant by getting away from just having gear and consumables to make.

[Lucavi]

Take Skyrim, a game that is pretty much all about quantity over quality and add an online feature. That's how a successful MMORPG works.
They're purposely designed to be as addictive as they get and as long as there are people willing to pay to play them there won't be significant changes in the genre.
WOW is the reason MMORPGs are stagnating. As mediocre as it is, it works and that's good enough for the developers.

WoW is not the reason MMOs are stagnating. MMO devs copying WoW are the reason that they're stagnating. Blizzard isn't forcing anyone to copy their designs. Blizzard didn't force anyone to buy their game.

People bought WoW because something about it resonated with them, and when they started playing it, they were hooked. I, myself, did the free trial after leaving XI, wanting to see what all the fuss was about. Within around 2 hours, I was hooked, and bought the retail copy before I had even gone halfway through my trial.

If WoW is the reason that the genre is stagnating, then you have to praise WoW for it (and I'm not willing to do that). WoW introduced a game that people didn't even think they needed or wanted, until they wound up wanting and needing it. That's the same with all genius innovations throughout history. Everyone was fine with regular bread; we didn't need it sliced, or know that we needed or wanted it sliced. Someone sliced it. Now look at how we use bread.

Don't insult Blizzard by saying "OMG ITS YOUR FAULT CUZ YOU'RE TOO GOOD AND YOUR SHIT'S TOO ADDICTIVE~!!". The game came out in what, 2005? Its 2012. The fact that so many tried to copy it means that it was terribly successful, and nothing more. These modern companies are two parts scared of trying something new and two parts wanting to cash in on what they know is already proven to work., with six parts of share-holders and investors tying everyone's hands together. This is the result: 7 years of companies trying to copy and "kill" WoW, and no one even coming close to succeeding.

GW2 realizes this, and realized it back in the day when GW came out and it was wildly successful in its own right, but for different reasons. GW2 will be the same way. It will not kill WoW, but it will achieve much success through being different enough to be called its own game, and not simply a WoW expansion pack with reskins, like Star Wars and, yes, even Rift.

[Rhyis.]

This is definitely not true. Or at least your definition of dexterity is so broad as to include things that Asmada isn't including. I don't know if timing (stuns) or movement (don't stand in the fire) should be included in the same group as dodge based play. I don't necessarily use the term dexterity for this. I would more call it twitch based play.

The difference is pretty important. Your example of UO doesn't really fit into the twitch-based idea of game play so it isn't really a good counterargument.

Could you give a definition of what you believe dexterity means to you, because I think we might actually agree that some "dexterity" requirement is good, but just differ on how much should be in a game (because of technical limitations or because of individual player skill issues).

Dexterity is just the word he chose to associate with what I was saying, so I used it so he could relate to my meaning. I've described what the word skill means to a gamer twice now in this thread, so I really have no intention of throwing down another definition for you.

[Inactive]

Are you talking about benefits other than speed/ease of leveling? If you're talking about other things, could you give some sort of example?

I'd basically just want the main means of getting XP to be in groups, with the possibility of going solo but having soloing be less effective. I just know that the player base isn't going to want to group unless there are some major benefits over soloing EXP.

[ringthree]

Holy Jesus, Jeff Grubb is working on GW2. That kind of changes everything. Why didn't anyone tell me?

[Takiwaki]

Holy Jesus, Jeff Grubb is working on GW2. That kind of changes everything. Why didn't anyone tell me?

Really? you didnt know?

[Isiolia]

Really? you didnt know?

I had to look him up >_>;

But, then seeing as how he wrote Nightfall, and EoTN (or at least was part of the team) it's not that surprising. He basically would have written the 250-years-prior backstory for the playable races already XD (well, 'cept the Sylvari)

Hopefully GW2 will also include areas that turn me into a sandworm, because those were awesome

[CasualPlayer]

Even within this thread (the hardcore community) is at odds with itself on what it wants in an MMO. How could a developer hope to get it right? The wide net theory seems to sadly make the most sense after compiling all these different opinions.

The only common thread I can see from these last 5 pages is the fact that people actually do want the community aspect that ffxi brought (play with someone instead of beside) and some even went as far as trying to promote karma within the game to ensure responsible actio.action within the community.

Perhaps the best course of action for future MMO development is to work around this feature.

[Takiwaki]

I had to look him up >_>;

But, then seeing as how he wrote Nightfall, and EoTN (or at least was part of the team) it's not that surprising. He basically would have written the 250-years-prior backstory for the playable races already XD (well, 'cept the Sylvari)

Hopefully GW2 will also include areas that turn me into a sandworm, because those were awesome

Those were pretty awesome indeed lol. Well lots of room for expansions also, its gonna be huge!

[ringthree]

I had to look him up >_>;

But, then seeing as how he wrote Nightfall, and EoTN (or at least was part of the team) it's not that surprising. He basically would have written the 250-years-prior backstory for the playable races already XD (well, 'cept the Sylvari)

Hopefully GW2 will also include areas that turn me into a sandworm, because those were awesome

More importantly, he contributed to both the Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms campaigns (which, if you are a mega-nerd like me you will instantly recognize). They were some of the most fleshed out and impressive D&D game worlds. Maybe the best fantasy worlds since J.R.R. Tolkein.

[Thiefami]

Even within this thread (the hardcore community) is at odds with itself on what it wants in an MMO. How could a developer hope to get it right? The wide net theory seems to sadly make the most sense after compiling all these different opinions.

The only common thread I can see from these last 5 pages is the fact that people actually do want the community aspect that ffxi brought (play with someone instead of beside) and some even went as far as trying to promote karma within the game to ensure responsible actio.action within the community.

Perhaps the best course of action for future MMO development is to work around this feature.

How to get it right? Quality, immersion, fun. It's really as open as that. I hate to use buzz words, but it will take a next gen frame of mind to create a big hit. As Lucavi said with World of Warcraft, people didn't even know they wanted it until they tried it. I think being original while creating a compelling world players can fall into will do it. You can mask any grind by simply making it fun.

[CasualPlayer]

How to get it right? Quality, immersion, fun. It's really as open as that. I hate to use buzz words, but it will take a next gen frame of mind to create a big hit. As Lucavi said with World of Warcraft, people didn't even know they wanted it until they tried it. I think being original while creating a compelling world players can fall into will do it. You can mask any grind by simply making it fun.

Personally I think FFXI almost nailed this. Leveling a job to 75 was some of the most fun "grind" I've had in an MMO. If only SE could've gotten past the down time associated with getting a party together. I would think the buzz words you used go without saying in MMO development. I don't think anyone comes out and says we're going to make a game that's not going to be a quality game with fun and immersion. The problems with the genre today are deeper than that. It's how people interpret those qualities within the game the developer lays out. Quite frankly, most copy the WoW model which had all those qualities 7yrs ago, so while the new game has quality it isn't fun or immersive just stale.

So I guess I'll agree with Lucavi here and say a developer needs to create a game that is totally different, that completely redefines the genre, and that people will come to realize that's what they've been missing and wanting. I think this game will need to also build around the play beside and not against someone aspect too. IMO that's a huge factor in keeping players around for years. The last two or so years I logged into FFXI had almost nothing to do with the game and more to do with the people I was playing with.

Edit: I also wonder if P&R doesn't play a huge factor in the success of a game, at least here in NA. If you look at TERA and GW2, GW clearly has the bigger hype train associated with it and it still doesn't even have a release date. Both are solid games that are doing things that are trying to (somewhat) redefine the genre, both look beutiful, both are very accessible to the casual crowd. Yet if I had to bet today I'd say GW2 will launch with significantly more initial subs than TERA. While I'll blame some of this on the P2P model vs B2P, I'd put the rest on advertising. My local gamestop has no TERA stuff in it but there is already stuff for Diablo III, most of my casual MMO friends had no idea what TERA even was (until I made them go check it out), but they all knew about GW2.

[ringthree]

Personally I think FFXI almost nailed this. Leveling a job to 75 was some of the most fun "grind" I've had in an MMO. If only SE could've gotten past the down time associated with getting a party together. I would think the buzz words you used go without saying in MMO development. I don't think anyone comes out and says we're going to make a game that's not going to be a quality game with fun and immersion. The problems with the genre today are deeper than that. It's how people interpret those qualities within the game the developer lays out. Quite frankly, most copy the WoW model which had all those qualities 7yrs ago, so while the new game has quality it isn't fun or immersive just stale.

So I guess I'll agree with Lucavi here and say a developer needs to create a game that is totally different, that completely redefines the genre, and that people will come to realize that's what they've been missing and wanting. I think this game will need to also build around the play beside and not against someone aspect too. IMO that's a huge factor in keeping players around for years. The last two or so years I logged into FFXI had almost nothing to do with the game and more to do with the people I was playing with.

When WoW was created, Blizzard didn't intend to have 10 million players. They just wanted a little slice of the pie, maybe a little more than EQ. They weren't close to prepared for how popular it was because they didn't think it was going to be that popular. And this is my point about niche games. WoW was originally intended to be a niche game, and then it exploded. Right now, we need more niche games, more well focused games that don't try to appeal to everyone, and then turn that into a great game experience, and let the players decide. The MMO profit model is based on long term subscriptions, that is why these games stick around forever. Casual players are a bad place to start off. Once your game is going and you have your locked in core base of players, then you can start trying to draw in new players as long as you don't rewrite the game (SW:G I'm looking at you). If you start by attracting casual players, your cash flow will always be ephemeral. WoW was originally designed for hardcore players, and then slowly expanded out to more casuals. This is a good business model and it doesn't require copying WoW, it just requires keeping the MMO business model in mind when designing a game. You can't just "create" the next WoW, but you don't have to, because you can make money on an MMO without trying to get 10 million players on day one.

[Lucavi]

Personally I think FFXI almost nailed this. Leveling a job to 75 was some of the most fun "grind" I've had in an MMO. If only SE could've gotten past the down time associated with getting a party together. I would think the buzz words you used go without saying in MMO development. I don't think anyone comes out and says we're going to make a game that's not going to be a quality game with fun and immersion. The problems with the genre today are deeper than that. It's how people interpret those qualities within the game the developer lays out. Quite frankly, most copy the WoW model which had all those qualities 7yrs ago, so while the new game has quality it isn't fun or immersive just stale.

So I guess I'll agree with Lucavi here and say a developer needs to create a game that is totally different, that completely redefines the genre, and that people will come to realize that's what they've been missing and wanting. I think this game will need to also build around the play beside and not against someone aspect too. IMO that's a huge factor in keeping players around for years. The last two or so years I logged into FFXI had almost nothing to do with the game and more to do with the people I was playing with.

1) XI's grind was fun, provided multiple criteria were met. You had to have the right job, first of all, or you weren't getting invited by anyone other than your spouse or close friends. You had to have the right party dynamic, as a party without a bard, red mage, or both, due to their imbalanced buffs, was decidedly less fun than one with. You had to have the right camp, with the right number of people there. Too many people and the XP was too slow, which wasn't fun; too few and unless your party was a super uber-killer, you may have had one too many pops on your camp. You had to have the right amount of time for each player, as grinding parties took so long sometimes that it was common to swap people in and out throughout the day. At its pinnacle, yes, the leveling experience could be absurdly fun - for some people, and some jobs. I don't know how much fun whms were having, but hey, I wasn't a whm, so I won't speak about it. I think it'd be pretty hard for someone to fix all of those problems, though, without developing a game that many would scream about as being "casual".

2) I honestly feel that any company that talks about grabbing millions of subs right off the back, or even mentions any kind of competition with Blizzard, is doing it wrong. Focus on your own game, its own strengths, and take care of the customer. Hell, you really don't need the latter, if the former is properly addressed. SE didn't take care of anyone, then the Japanese, then... no one, and people around the world still loved it. EA doesn't know who to take care of, winds up pissing everyone off, and is really making a pretty laughable run at the MMO scene with SW, but some people are gonna stick through with the game no matter what, because the game appeals to them.

3) Word of mouth will always serve as the best form of P&R, especially in this electronic era. You really don't need to do any savvy advertising or anything; if your product is good, people will flock to it and it will eventually blow up. I mean, look at Draw Something. I, personally, don't use it, as I don't play anything on my smartphone, but shit, I know about it. If its not one of my friends talking about it, its reading an article about it online, or seeing a tweet about it or something. The word will get out if the product is good enough. You don't need separate kiosks with posters in Gamespot for a successful game.

[Isiolia]

Edit: I also wonder if P&R doesn't play a huge factor in the success of a game, at least here in NA. If you look at TERA and GW2, GW clearly has the bigger hype train associated with it and it still doesn't even have a release date. Both are solid games that are doing things that are trying to (somewhat) redefine the genre, both look beutiful, both are very accessible to the casual crowd. Yet if I had to bet today I'd say GW2 will launch with significantly more initial subs than TERA. While I'll blame some of this on the P2P model vs B2P, I'd put the rest on advertising. My local gamestop has no TERA stuff in it but there is already stuff for Diablo III, most of my casual MMO friends had no idea what TERA even was (until I made them go check it out), but they all knew about GW2.

One big reason for that would be the "2" at the end of the name, I think. Few people may have continuously played Guild Wars since it came out, but quite a few have at some point or another, or have gone back to it as campaigns were released. GW1 isn't an MMO proper (towns are public hubs, combat areas are all instanced), so the fan base isn't necessarily limited to MMO players.

[The Stig]

There was an article a while back, where we were discussing MMO Design and someone linked it. I don't remember where it is now, but it basically started "If you try to make a WoW-killer, you've failed already."

This was nearly a year or more ago, but it's cool that we're still on the same viewpoint here

I don't know how much fun whms were having, but hey, I wasn't a whm, so I won't speak about it.

I was a RDM until 60 but quit, but refresh and haste cycles weren't so fun ... dispels and enfeebles were fine though. I think the "not fun" bit is probably because there was no way to keep track of the buff, and you had to monitor the log. And refreshing it every what, 70 seconds? sucked.

[Rhyis.]

I was a RDM until 60 but quit, but refresh and haste cycles weren't so fun ... dispels and enfeebles were fine though. I think the "not fun" bit is probably because there was no way to keep track of the buff, and you had to monitor the log. And refreshing it every what, 70 seconds? sucked.

Eventually you refreshed those spell cycles in your sleep. Just became second nature.


I think I enjoyed FFXI a whole lot less then most of you, despite the fact that I played for like 4 years and played all the content. I have very little positive to say about the game play itself... Probably because I soloed most sky/sea content while everybody else was wiping in groups of 18+.

RDM was just so OP I never understood why anybody played anything else. Needed a main healer? Np, bring a RDM. Needed a main tank? Np, bring a RDM. Needed a buff/debuff monkey? Np, bring a RDM.

[Lordender]

I think there was some things that SE had the right idea with XI, however they were poorly executed.

1. HNM's: The system was poorly executed due to bot fests, really bad drop rates but they did one thing right, they got people out in the game world, the zones that had HNM's in were always busy. I think a proper HNM system that isn't designed to cockblock people with bots, offered everyone a chance to fight them would thrive in a modern MMO. Getting people out in your game world should be no.1 priority for any MMO going forward outside of the leveling experience.

2. BCNM content: Again, great idea but really fell short overall. This could have been the best feature in XI had they not sold it short.


I just think companies need to quit trying to be Blizzard and stop trying to re-invent WoW, the model is just too played out and old now. MMO companies need to start thinking of unique ideas instead of being playing "safe".

[Dryr]

Even within this thread (the hardcore community) is at odds with itself on what it wants in an MMO. How could a developer hope to get it right? The wide net theory seems to sadly make the most sense after compiling all these different opinions.

The only common thread I can see from these last 5 pages is the fact that people actually do want the community aspect that ffxi brought (play with someone instead of beside) and some even went as far as trying to promote karma within the game to ensure responsible actio.action within the community.

Perhaps the best course of action for future MMO development is to work around this feature.

The casuals are the majority of players in WoW (millions of subs). The "ideal" MMO that people seem to be asking for here tends to be heavy on the technical/crafting/novel-sized story aspects of MMOs and that would result in an MMO with the popularity of FFXI once again...

I loved FFXI, but it really lacked the first "M" from MMO most of the time. If there are almost never MASSIVE numbers of people playing (without language barriers) paying a monthly fee to stagnate gets old.

You can have a guild of hundreds of people to use as a community like FFXI. Then, you can interact with countless others anonymously for pugs and pvp if you want rather than having a server pop soo small that you learn half of the server's player names just because you all stand at the AH for hours trying to organize an activity.

[blindSharingan]

Maybe I'm the only one but I hated exping in FFXI. It felt like such a chore at times and prevented me from leveling more classes that I always wanted to try. The one good thing that stemmed from that though was that the slow pace of the leveling typically made it more motivating to go off and do lower/mid tiered activities instead of just rushing to the cap. Which I felt kind of resulted in a more memorable experience. I think the best option would be to try and have leveling to cap take a longer span of time but somehow make the experience of leveling more enjoyable while also figuring out where players are going to need a break and providing a suitable amount of alternate content. I'm not really sure how that could be accomplished but I don't think that focusing solely on grinding mobs or quests is the way to go about it. Also I never really felt like exping in XI made me feel like I was playing "with others" until things were going wrong and you'd feel like "This guys is freaking terrible...". When a exp party was going great was when it would feel almost mechanical.

One thing I feel conflicted about is how much input the "community" should have on a MMO's development. I agree with Casual that people simply don't know what they want and there are always different camps that want different things. Some people want new and different and other want the more of the same stuff they've already had before and than they'll go and argue the exact opposite. Official forums tend to be a nightmare and even reading some stuff on these forum can be headache inducing at times.

As far as classes are concerned I always kind of liked the idea of defined roles to be entirely honest. The best experiences I had in FFXI were during endgame and the friends I made while doing it. I played XI with them and now I am playing XIV with them. Within our group we always have our roles (Tank, DD, heals, etc.) that we always play and would play in any new game and we all seem to really enjoy that. Some of the most rewarding experiences I've had are from low manning things with them which at the time were considered difficult. I would like to see more of that; either a greater flexibility allowed with the size of parties or just smaller parties in general. Aside from the fact that it makes everyone's particular role more important; I feel like its easier to become friends with everyone when the group is smaller as opposed to forcing people to make larger groups. This could also help to deter alot of the clicks that were common in FFXI Linkshells.

This has probably been done before but I haven't personally experienced it in a mmo but I kinda like the idea of a leveling system that starts with a wider class definition that narrows as you level higher up. What I mean by this is there are no "classes" but just your character. You pick which weapon(s)/attire you would like to use and start off with some very basic versions of beginner abilities/spells and than you can potentially build your character into a certain direction (tank, dd, mage). I guess the best way to think about it would be to think skyrim but with more depth to it.