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    The future of MMO's

    In the spirit of the excellent discussion going on in the SWTOR thread, I'd like to expand a bit on the topic, and as Grey suggested, provide a more appropriate place for the discussion.

    As an aspiring developer who is hoping to have a hand in MMO development sometime in the next 10 years, I have been doing a lot of theory crafting on what online games will look like in the future. If I were able to start work on a AAA title right now, these are the features I would be trying to incorporate (only including things that are currently not prevalent in any MMO):

    1. Scrap EXP and Conventional Leveling

    Levels

    The current EXP leveling system found in most MMO's works fantastically in single player games. The problem I've found with this system online is that it fragments the player base and developers seem to struggle to provide continuous content across the spectrum of levels.

    You're level is just a bit too low to do this. You're too high of level to group with us. You can enter such and such instance at the minimum level, but it's waaay too hard (or you drag the rest of the group down). You can do such and such instance for another 2 levels, but the crappy EXP you get makes it pointless. And on and on the list can go.

    Developers have been providing supplemental systems to help overcome this issue, such as level sync in FFXI, and the mentor system in Aion, but this is overdue for a complete overhaul.

    My solution to this would be to group similar levels together and focus on the strengths for that segment of the game. MMO's seem to have fairly distinct segments which I would call: The Tutorial, Group Introduction, The Grind (has multiple iterations), and End Game. Most games seem to have around 10 levels between each segment. Let's break this down using FFXI.

    - The first 10 levels in FFXI (The Tutorial) are mainly done solo, take very little time to complete, have low difficulty, and help teach the player the basic mechanics of the game and the chosen class.

    - Levels 11-20 introduced most players to group game play. It takes significantly longer than the tutorial to complete, the difficulty ramps up, and the player learns the basics of functioning in a group. There is still usually little extra content at this point, such as instances.

    - Levels 21-30, 31-40, 41-50 etc all seem to have distinct features, but we can lump them into The Grind category. Each consecutive bracket increases the time needed to complete and may or may not be more difficult. This is usually where the player notices a lot of repetition within the game. The player doesn't necessarily learn anything new about the game that they couldn't have learned earlier, but this is where they put in a majority of the time leveling up. There is usually some side content that may or may not be specific to a level range. FFXI had level specific events here such as garrison, BCNM, and level capped missions (R.I.P.).

    - Levels 70-75 brought classic FFXI End Game. The focus on EXP based progression starts to fade (brought back with the inclusion of merits later on) and players instead focus on instances and events. Difficulty tends to have the widest gap here as newer players will struggle with the hardest events, and veterans will breeze through the easy events.

    What I would do is group the first 10 levels into a single "rank" and limit the stat gains available within the rank. Then, when the player ranks up, they would receive a sizable stat gain all at once. This keeps players on a more level playing field for a longer period of time, and in essence defragments the player base.

    Players no longer have to search 2 hours for that level 53-55 tank, and developers can focus on content for a more defined section of their game. This would all lead to better game play and a less frustrating experience for the players.

    EXP

    Gaining arbitrary experience points in an RPG is an archaic model for online games. It perpetuates the problems outlined above and leads to dull game play. Games that don't have extensive quest systems, like FFXI, become a huge turn off to most people because you just grind mobs for hours on end to level up (the quest system isn't that much better imo).

    EXP is essentially a numerical break down of incremental character progression. So, let's just get rid of the middle man and focus directly on character progression already! (note: when I mention character progression here, I am specifically focusing on gaining base stats, skills, traits, ect. I will focus on other types of character progression, such as equipment, later)

    Most online games right now have 3 ways to gain skills and traits: skill books and scrolls, automatic acquisition, and quests (mostly where you just receive the skill book or scroll as a reward). There is also only 1 way to gain base stats: leveling up.

    This is boring as shit... For one of the main ways that players see progress and power increases, this is terrible design. Let's get the player much more involved in not only gaining these abilities, but continuously tweaking and improving them. WoW's talent system is a great early example of how this can work, but they failed to really involve the player in the process.

    Imagine, in FFXI as a MNK, you could visit a guru early on who promised to teach you the ancient skill of boost if you could brave a dungeon and retrieve a lost artifact. Then, you can improve the damage modification by solving the mystery surrounding the artifact. A rank later, you can visit another guru who can help you reduce the reuse time of the skill if you submit to his training. And later, yet another who can train you in meditation, which increases the amount of times that boost will stack.

    The amount of customization through this type of system is limited only by the developer's creativity (and time). It would help immerse the player into the game world and give a much greater sense of character progression than is currently available.

    Mix in racial missions (can we get these already??), main storyline missions, standard fare side quests (which can give small base stat rewards), and instances for gear, and you have PLENTY of content for each rank without arbitrary EXP as a filler.


    Well... I rambled on more on that one point than I thought I would, so I'll stop here so I don't overload the discussion. Feel free to discuss any of these points and anything that was brought up in the SWTOR thread.

    As a preview, here are the topics I have written down that I will probably talk about in more detail later on:

    Spoiler: show

    2. Develop a closed economy

    3. Use a single server with scalable content

    4. A Single Character can experience the ENTIRE game (STOP MAKING FACTION BASED GAMES)

    5. User customizable chat windows, integrated voice and video chat

    6. Design the game to be played 1-2 hours a day on average as well as be aware of game compulsion issues

    7. Racial evolutions

    8. Class simulator early in the game

    9. Progressive immersion (where things like certain HUD elements are not available until the player unlocks them)

    10. Event planners that can nearly eliminate down time before events. i.e. fuck you Einherjar

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    While it's yet to be determined, on paper, GW2's exp and leveling system seems to alleviate most of the issues. Being scaled down to whatever area you're in, along with the removal of the holy trinity, allows players to play with whomever they like and when they like. This also means that players never out level content, which is a huge step up and hopefully puts more of an emphasis on building a large and lively world with many players participating in it. This lets me play with friends that may have just picked up the game without me just steamrolling everything for them.

    Not this may seem like it goes against the progression aspect of MMO's, but i think it's a needed change moving forward. It should also encourage devs to build better worlds instead of accepting that players will level through it as quick as possible one time and leaving every zone but one as ghost towns.

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    Mix in racial missions (can we get these already??)
    Contradicts, slightly:

    4. A Single Character can experience the ENTIRE game (STOP MAKING FACTION BASED GAMES)
    ---

    3. Use a single server with scalable content
    EVE Online already does this, I believe.

    ---

    As you're aspiring to be a developer, add this to your "development":

    A name and shame system or player rep system. You're an asshole online? People can negatively rep you. Ninja items? Yup. Ninja pulled to mpk a group? 5 people can negative rep you.

    Lead a good event? People can postively rep you. Helped people out on quests? They can rep plus you.

    Just look at the public channels available nowadays. eBay being the best and earliest example. Negative Feedback? That is serious business. The same is applied here. If people knows those stars next to their name hold value on how everyone will look at you, people are less likely going to be assholes.

    Obviously we need to protect such a system from abuse or "friend repping" or "someone pissed me off. I'm going get all 300 of my guild mates to negatively rep him".

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    If MMOs emulate Alla, Im out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stig View Post
    A name and shame system or player rep system. You're an asshole online? People can negatively rep you. Ninja items? Yup. Ninja pulled to mpk a group? 5 people can negative rep you.

    Lead a good event? People can postively rep you. Helped people out on quests? They can rep plus you.

    Just look at the public channels available nowadays. eBay being the best and earliest example. Negative Feedback? That is serious business. The same is applied here. If people knows those stars next to their name hold value on how everyone will look at you, people are less likely going to be assholes.

    Obviously we need to protect such a system from abuse or "friend repping" or "someone pissed me off. I'm going get all 300 of my guild mates to negatively rep him".
    a friend i've known since before FFXI, briefly played FFXI with (he didn't last long compared to the 8 years or so for me), but have always kept in contact with about games in general messaged me an idea similar to this the other day. we're always making up "improvements" to games that we like. he mentioned an optional peer review both when you first log onto the server - it would ask you if you knew a random character, what you thought about them, etc. - and also after an event or party or whatever, you could peer review the people played with. i thought this was an interesting idea, of course like you said it could totally be abused and would need to be tweaked, etc., but i hadn't seen it in any other game yet. the closest i could think of was the rep system on xblive.

    edit: was going to explain his idea of "different kinds of fame" but i'll just paste his exact messages:
    Spoiler: show

    so i dont know why i thought of it just now
    but its something i thought back when we were playing ffxi
    another one of my ideas
    for fame
    instead of with quests
    which i guess is ok for the story
    but for notoriety with the players
    when you log in
    you should get a prompt
    with another characters name
    and get some questions
    do you know this character?
    yes/no
    have you quested with them
    partied with them
    bought/traded
    etc
    then you can have different kinds of fame
    like that guy was super helpful and what not
    or if you never quested partied or anything but still know them
    they can be elusive or infamous
    and when you do quests the npc can say things like, so and so had helped out before
    or if someone did something in record time the npc can be like, do you know so and so
    or say something like, im not expecting results like whats his face, but any help would be good
    stuff like that

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    Contradicts, slightly:
    Thanks for pointing this out, but I have a system in mind for allowing both to be possible. It probably wouldn't work for all games, but basically take FFXI's system where one character can level all classes and add in a feature I'm tentatively calling it soul fusing (or something to that effect). It would allow the player, when they start a new class, to choose a new race, name, and/or character model while having that character linked directly back to the main character. In essence, it would be like in FFXI if you changed classes you would also change race, which you would have pre-determined.

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    I am fearful that if the genre doesn't start defining itself by it's wanted player base, that all of the games are just going to turn into these nebulous morasses where character class and role are irrelevant, and it's just going to be ten different people all bashing on a boss without any sense of internal group purpose. This is the direction that GW2 is going and I think it isn't a great idea.

    Can't make the game too hard, so the roles can't be too hard, but you have to keep people interested so every class has to have a bunch of things to do. You start getting to the point where the only difference between classes is their rotation because everyone can tank and everyone can heal.

    WoW is moving in that direct, and GW2 is way beyond even that. I still need to try out GW2 to see if it is as bad as I have heard it described, but as someone that played FFXI, GW2 seems like the antithesis of proper MMO development.

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    LOL

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    PAX East Vid
    Thanks for sharing this, was an interesting watch.

    I share your apprehension with the GW2 "classless" model Ringthree. GW2 will be the game to watch this year for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Senji View Post
    If MMOs emulate Alla, Im out.
    That's one problem. I'd hate to see rep whores floating around "hi guys don't forget to rep me!"

    It'll be similar to youtube

    SUBSCRIBE TO MY CHANNEL

    or Facebook

    LIKE ME!

    Only instant-fix system I can think of is an insta-temp-ban (24 hours?) for anyone that does that. Rep/Feedback on the player is given by choice, not by request. Any requests become a bannable offense.

    The system is there, but it is optional. Personally I do give feedback if I feel it's truely helped me, or truely pissed me off.

    rezn0r: Yeah i see what your friend is trying to do. Cute little idea, but again seems too forced. People would be less inclined to use it.

    Ultimately I wish to show that being a dick online has some consequences. Just a "report to GM" and then not actually knowing what's happened to the person in question isn't sufficient enough. I'd like to know the outcome and see the person face the consequences. I don't understand why people are so against "name and shaming", for example, MMO Champ, posting about a gimped player would net you a strike/ban.

    Sure, it might start some sort of a club, but if you get out of line in town your ass is going down quick. I don't see why the same cannot be applied online. It just breeds stupidity.

    So aside from a rep system, GMs/Reps should make it a prority to tell you exactly what has happened to the person you reported.

  12. #12

    Maybe the biggest snag I see in removing the level dynamic is how you go about handling equipment. Chasing gear is a big part of most MMOs, and whether we like it not, seeing some inept n00b chancing upon some uber drop of ittookmeforeverandayeartoget would anger a good deal of individuals, especially if he never had to touch any other part of the game to don it. Now, some might suggest stat requirements, but you basically shift EXP grinding to "Do whatever gives you stats" grinding. Faction/Fame/Notoriety grinds may be another option, but that introduces a sort of logic snafu where you find yourself thinking, "Gee, this group of people don't like me. I really shouldn't wear equipment they make." when, in reality, I could wear ladies underwear if I really wanted to and the rest of the world wanted to scream at me for it. You could try to obfuscate it a bit and be like, "That armor is cursed! Only Mr. Wizard of the Magimporium can remove it!" But the smart people will notice, especially if Mr. Wizard will only talk to you if you're a hero among them.

    So, some might propose eliminating stat gains entirely, focusing more on skill or twitch reflexes. Class imbalances aside (rare is it I play a game where melee don't get trounced by ranged), you introduce the lag monster. You could go all Aurik up in this joint and claim lag is never a factor in contributing to a negative outcome when gaming, but when half a second can be the difference between success and failure, you want it as minimal as possible. Sadly, the world and its internet connections are not equal and ever subject to random shit beyond the player's control. So, requiring some element of skill is fine. You can consider this learning a boss' mechanics, how to counter what, and so on. Swinging the pendulum too far toward this, though, is bad. Heck, I didn't even touch on the difference between computers, which can introduce advantages beyond hardware lag issues.

    Part of me wants to see a dev man up and flip hardcore players the bird, as well. Too often I see whining about how they don't want to see the dirty casuals, care bears, or whatever flavor of insult of the month is utilized not be able to do something because they feel they haven't earned it or that some content should just be for the elite. As long as everyone is paying the same subscription fees, there should be no giant brick walls. This doesn't mean shit needs to be dumbed down to cater to monkeys at typewriters, but rather a more realistic sense of progression that doesn't favor no-lifers and random number generators. I've also been growing progressively "anti-large man content" of late, where requiring 10+ people for things but with no in-game system of fairly rewarding players basically lends itself to the drama of flawed player run points systems and the second-job mentality where those who can't game 40+ hours a week will just arbitrarily progress slower. I know part of the appeal for MMOs for some is doing shit with lots of other people, but I feel if it's not pick-up-and-play friendly, just adding more bodies is akin to adding more hassle. And perhaps to play on my earlier n00b example, some just need to stop giving a flying fuck about who gets what and where when they'll never (want to) play with them, anyway. You are not the special snowflake you believe yourself to be, but for some reason devs give these types an ear and games suffer because of it.

    And, well, I guess pushing new content for everyone should be a higher priority. SE's shown us a good example of what not to do with XI over the past year. Meanwhile, Rift is pandering a bit too much to the raiders who fit the personality type I mentioned above. Since I have no options to improve my character without raiding, the choice is to level an alt and eventually hit the same wall, or not play (as much). I'd love some new zones or the like to tackle, but since I need 19 others and to have sold my soul to prior raid content for months to meet requirements for the new, a new raid means nothing to me. This also applies to many, many other players who want more than just pets or mounts to chase.

    And yeah, no karma systems. While I think some anti-Alla people aren't as smart or people savvy as they'd like to think they are, it doesn't remove the potential for abuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree View Post
    WoW is moving in that direct, and GW2 is way beyond even that. I still need to try out GW2 to see if it is as bad as I have heard it described, but as someone that played FFXI, GW2 seems like the antithesis of proper MMO development.
    As a consideration, the point of an MMO isn't necessarily for the playerbase to divide themselves up into exclusive clubs in order to tackle content (or sit around hoping for a pickup group/invite).

    Arenanet is planning content for that kind of setup, just like they're planning organized 5v5 PvP and not just wide-open WvWvW. The story content also utilizes instancing to keep individual challenge present.

    That being said, the point (presumably) of an MMO is to actually be part of a large game world. Not to run around at odds with other players/groups who are trying to do the same things you are. The structure of the open world parts of GW2 encourages informal cooperation on a larger scale, which is probably more in tune with what the larger MMO ideal is, rather than a competition between rival co-op groups like most tend to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renzokuken
    I share your apprehension with the GW2 "classless" model Ringthree. GW2 will be the game to watch this year for sure.
    GW2 isn't classless, it just doesn't rely on the same structure as nearly every other MMO.

    Guild Wars already does a lot of the XP related stuff you mentioned, and while GW2 is a definite departure from it, there are similarities. At least in GW1, vertical progression plateaus quickly. While there's still a lot in terms of expanding your repertoire, the game still puts a lot more focus on player skill than stats.

    Part of the rationale for bucking the "holy trinity" trend is to involve every player more, and probably to make a wider variety of skills have value. As we've seen with FFXI, if you can just dump healing on someone, then defensive strategies become moot. Mainly what GW2 lacks, if you look at the Skills on the wiki (and some dev comments) is mass healing. Without that, people actually need to avoid damage, or use tanking Skills, and so on.

    Can't say for sure yet, but really, Arenanet has not catered to skill-less play before - hell, the tutorial sections of Factions took more skill than half of FFXI endgame...I doubt they're abandoning that for GW2.

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    if they made games without factions they would be boring and unpopular just like ffxi. the playerbase needs something to hate, an "enemy" that's a real player. thus why FPS games are so popular, lollipops and PVE MMOs just won't work and it's a terrible idea so I hope no one actually thinks that.

    edit: you also listed that you want race based missions, but you don't want factions so that the player can experience the whole game..? kinda contradicts

    edit2: o someone beat me

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    Quote Originally Posted by D44kpunk View Post
    if they made games without factions they would be boring and unpopular just like ffxi. the playerbase needs something to hate, an "enemy" that's a real player. thus why FPS games are so popular, lollipops and PVE MMOs just won't work and it's a terrible idea so I hope no one actually thinks that.
    Different strokes for different folks

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    Here is what I think must be done:

    MMO companies need to stop trying to cater to everyone and their grandma, stop the three difficulty raiding nonsense. Raiding/endgame should be for the most dedicated players who know how to play, who learned the proper team work between each class. All you do with three difficulty raiding/endgame is speed up burn-out at a rate where you can never keep up content wise because every joe and jane will have the content on farm using the easiest difficulty mere hours/days after a patch. Three difficulty modes are why people stay subbed 1-2 months total per patch which makes managing a guild a fucking headache for harder difficulty modes which leads to this neverending shitty cycle where your guild needs to gear new a person up to be able to do hardmode progression.

    I am not saying we need Tanaka grinds, bad endgame mode with 21-24hr HNM, we need a game where endgame is endgame not "put this boss on hard where it has 30% more damage/health and maybe 1 new phase/mechanic." The sense of accomplishment is gone from MMO's because the endgame is too watered down.

    Communities need to matter more in MMO's, when I played WoW I got so sick of all these retarded assholes in cross server dungeons. I would hate to be a new player in a game like WoW especially going forward. When I played FFXI I had so much more fun than I did when playing WoW despite WoW being the better made game, why? because of one thing: The Community. In FFXI your actions mattered, you have to play a degree of politics in the community to get things done, if you were an asshat without a dedicated guild you were fucked. In FFXI you knew every single asshole on your server, you could avoid them like the plague.

    Game Worlds need to matter again: We're in an age where every MMO company going forward is going to explore cross server content, hitting queue buttons and getting thrown into a hodge podge group. I understand the intent here, "play when you wanna play without following some guild schedule." The problem with this is when its the only content that is worthwhile. There needs to be a reason for you to go out into a game world, it makes no sense for you to be this hero that dispatched all these threats in these various zones while questing to level up only to hit the level cap and hit a queue button all day in town.

    PVP/PVE needs to be seperated, no more sharing of the talents/skills/spells which leads to pointless nerfs due to someone raping someone in PVP with a popular ability/spell that is a staple in PVE. I hate how in WoW things keep drastically changing in PVE because of the PVP implications.

    MMO's need to do a better job at teaching someone how to play whatever class they pick, nothing pisses me off more than seeing a fresh level capped player having no clue as to what they're doing then get told to go to an elitist jerks or a similar site to learn a rotation etc. I just think thats fail, the game needs to beat it into your head as you level up about your class, it should teach you that "standing in fire, goo, acid is bad".

    These are just some of the things I want to see MMO's get back to, I just can't stand the new direction these games are going in.

  17. #17

    listen to this i think it fits perfectly here! especially the beginning

    http://www.gameinformer.com/b/podcas...ld-wars-2.aspx

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by D44kpunk View Post
    if they made games without factions they would be boring and unpopular just like ffxi. the playerbase needs something to hate, an "enemy" that's a real player. thus why FPS games are so popular, lollipops and PVE MMOs just won't work and it's a terrible idea so I hope no one actually thinks that.

    edit: you also listed that you want race based missions, but you don't want factions so that the player can experience the whole game..? kinda contradicts

    edit2: o someone beat me
    Hard set factions are really unnecessary, and FF11 did have factions; the 3 nations. This dictacted the storyline you could do plus other things like Ballista/etc, but the difference is you are not locked into this. You can switch at any time, and while these nation factions don't play a large part in FF11 gameplay later on, the idea that you can change factions is a good one and I think they even explored that in City of Heroes eventually. Alot of people might want to play a certain race without being restricted to playing with the rest of the faction. Easiest way to do it would be to start off neutral till level 10/20, then let the player choose depending on how they view each faction through the neutral questline to that point.

    Factions are nice for storyline purposes but when it restricts greatly who you can play with it does tend to hurt the experience of whichever faction is currently the weakest on the server, as it is rarely even.

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    All factions do is split up the player base. Server vs. server is such a better way of doing PVP or even use TERA's guild vs. guild.

  20. #20

    I think Jon Peters said it best in the Future of Online games panel. Casual or hardcore, easy or difficult. It doesn't matter as long as the game is fun. If it's not fun, people aren't going to play it. Now I realize what's fun for one person might not be fun for another. And that's the main thing developers need to pursue. Making a game that will be fun for a large audience and keeping the game fun for that audience. Curt Schilling also said something along the lines of "There have been so many games in the last few years that launched and didn't have an identity. They tried to be everything to everyone and ended up being nothing to anyone."

    Devs need to stop looking at players as dollar signs and look at them as gamers and ask themselves "What would make people want to buy and actually play my game for a significant amount of time?" Which I think is probably hard for a lot of devs because somewhere along the line they stopped being gamers and started being businessmen. In my opinion the carrot on the stick doesn't cut it anymore as the sole reason to play an MMO. The game needs to be fun first and foremost. If the game is fun people will actually want to chase the carrot because they're having fun while doing it.

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