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Thread: Debuff Elemental Affinity     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #1
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    Debuff Elemental Affinity

    Goal: Find a general elemental affinity for types of debuffs rather than specific debuff spells. We know the element of common debuffs such as Para, Burn, and others. However, there are also debuffs that are theorized to be a particular element rather than proven.

    For the most part, element by debuff, rather than spell element, was first brought up way back when people were testing BLU debuffs. Lets see what else pops up and see what general Buff/Debuff correlations we can make. I'm using the mACC Magian Staves to conduct this test.

    ATT+/-
    mATT+/-
    DEF +/-
    mDEF +/-
    EVA+/-
    STAT+/-
    ** STR
    ** DEX
    ** VIT
    ** AGI
    ** INT
    ** MND
    ** CHR

    I just tested INT down using Sound Blast. This spell has no burn effect that I know of, but still counted towards the objective. Plague from Delta Thrust and Lowing counted as well. My guess is stats follow the same line as the Elemental Debuff line.

    Here is my guess for the rest:

    ATT: Fire/Water
    mATT: Ice/Fire
    DEF: Earth/Wind
    mDEF: Water/Thunder
    EVA: Wind/Ice
    ACC: Thunder/Dark << Odd one

    Not sure if there is a coherent line or not.

    Edit: New list

    • STR (Fire/Water): Attack
    • DEX (Thunder/Earth): Accuracy (Actually Dark opposition, so this is odd), Critical hit rate
    • VIT (Earth/Wind): Defense
    • AGI (Wind/Ice): Evasion
    • INT (Ice/Fire): Magic Accuracy (?), Magic Attack
    • MND (Water/Thunder): Magic Evasion, Magic Defense
    • CHR (Light/Dark):

  2. #2
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    I don't know whether it means anything, but the crystal fetters spawned by Provenance Watcher have debuffs associated with the status they would normally buff, not the status they are strong to. For example, the earth fetter gives rasp and defense down, the wind fetter gives choke and evasion down, lightning fetter gives shock and accuracy down.

  3. #3
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    Critical Evasion Down is an earth based debuff and Magic Evasion Down is a Thunder Based debuff. Tested using magian trial killshots with enfeebling matching prescribed element present. Stardiver's crit evasion down counted as earth debuff for earth acc trials and Death Blossom's m.eva down counted as a thunder based debuff.

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    JA/WS/Trait icon box colors are a pretty intuitive way to find the element of various debuffs.

    I'm not in game now so can't check but if Subtle Blow is a green box, it would make sense why Jumps are green since they have a hidden effect of Subtle Blow+100% on strike. Is the Quickdraw JA(not the actual shots) a green box? Would explain things. I don't have

    Things to test, non exhaustive list:

    1) There may exist multiple forms of each debuff, and may be different elements
    i.e mobs immune to light sleep or dark sleep but not the other or light dispel vs dark dispel.

    2) The primary spell of element may determine resist but actual enfeebling effect may have it's own element- such as all sleep being dark but the spell element can be light/dark (lullaby/sleep/yawn/soporific/shiva's sleepga)

    3) Angon= Light or Wind Def Down or non elemental

    3a) Some debuffs may be non-elemental i.e Angon/Feint/Dazes(white boxes i think)

    4) Jettatura/Feral Howl/Absolute Terror test element(hypothesis:dark) I don't have BST leveled but what color box is Feral Howl?

    5) Inhibit TP/Max HP Down/Max MP Down elements..hard to test, maybe Contagion Transfer would work...HP/MP isn't important but might be interesting to test the element of Chi Blast's effect.



    Are there any WS which add an additional with an incongruent colored icon box? When WS/Spells add multiple effects they have an unrelated box color. Enervation is m.def/p.def down but has a black box(but the enfeebles it inflicts are thunder and windbased).

  5. #5
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    CHR must do SOMETHING only because the things we know CHR affects were actually not even implemented into the game at launch(BST,BRD, Dancing Edge, Eyes on Me). But there was plenty of CHR boosting gear and food for several months before advance jobs and level cap came out.

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    Going by elemental magian weapons, I would guess magic evasion up + magic accuracy down are light, and magic accuracy up and magic evasion down are dark.

  7. #7
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    Could test that if there's a JA/WS/Ability that gives m.acc down. I think one of the mythic WS grant it too lazy to check, but we can test it.

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    Yoshi P
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    Magic eva. down can be inflicted with the rdm mythic ws.

    For magic acc. down, I don't think there's anything besides a couple mob tp moves and the add. effect magian weapons. Can you get those on the test server?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    5) Inhibit TP/Max HP Down/Max MP Down elements..hard to test, maybe Contagion Transfer would work...HP/MP isn't important but might be interesting to test the element of Chi Blast's effect.
    Although it would be worth testing in case they are different, yurin: ichi is a dark based spell and is the same inhibit effect. I'd think they would be the same, but penance may be light based while yurin: ichi is dark.

  10. #10
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    Tests and ideas.

    Tests:

    Spoiler: show
    1. Use spells with similar effects (Blin v Accuracy down): The former was dark and the latter was not (Presumably, earth) using magian staff trials

    2. Use element of the spell to determine element (Absorb spells): Absorb-STR worked towards magian trials when used against Scorpions, but not when used against Dhalmels. Absorb-CHR worked against Dhalmels though (CHR=Light, so that makes sense).

    3. Determine whether spell element or debuff element determines resistance (Sleep/Absorbs): If debuff determines resistance, then any spell can land the same debuff against the same mob; if spell element, then mobs can resist different spells enacting the same debuff. This is easy to test using dark elements and Absorb-STR. Using Test 1, we know that Absorb-STR is a water based debuff even though the spell element is dark. Dark elements resisted Absorb-STR despite this fact. Thus, we know the spell resistance is not dependent on the element of the status icon itself.

    4. Determine the element of terror debuff (Jetturatura): I did a Jettura test (Terror) and found the element was not Dark, Ice, or Earth. I tested this using RDM/BLU with Chainspell + Brew against Dhalmels, Jnun, and Bugards.


    Findings:
    Spoiler: show
    1. The status icon element is independent of the type of effect (Test 1)
    2. The spell element is independent of the status icon element (Test 2)
    3. The resistance towards a spell is not dependent on the status icon element (Test 3)

    Can we conclude resistance depends on spell element? Not if BLU magic tests are to be believed. Nightfyre tested regurgitation's bind element and found that the element was ice rather than water. Lets summarize the types of "elements" before I continue:

    1. Damage Element
    2. ??? Element
    3. Status Icon Element

    One of these determines the icon displayed


    Idea:
    So which gets displayed? I think the way I've written the elements shows the hierarchy.

    Use Nuke Resist Element
    Else use ??? Resist Element
    Else use Status Icon Resist Element

    This would explain why WS closely follow the debuff element since they aren't elemental magic. So what is the ??? element? Consider Angon, which is not an elemental nuke, does defense down (Wind Status Icon Element), but displays a white element icon. I believe this ??? Element a way for SE to slip in custom resists. This is where we get Angon's icon and non-resist nature. This is probably where we get Absorb spell's dark icon and dark resist despite the fact that there is no nuke element and the status icon element is not dark. I also believe this is what SE uses to determine the resist element of various sleeps. So if SE wants a sleep to be dark based, they manipulate ??? element to dark. If they want a light sleep (repose), they manipulate to light.

    Lets go a step further with that last point though. For spells like Jettura, the ??? element is dark, but terror itself seemingly has no Status Icon Element (Test 4). So why is this significant? I think this simultaneously shows that Sleep's Status Icon Element is elementless. This is supported by Pinecone bomb which has no nuke element (Physical spell) and (assumption!) has no ??? element. The default, then, is the Status Icon Element. However, the Status Icon Element for sleep is elementless, so we see that happen with Pinecone bomb. Finally, I think elementless icons, via ??? customization, show when an effect will be unresistable unless immune to the effect itself (Note that this is different from the element; think of this as resist bind v resist ice).

    In short, a lot of work to speculate that certain Status Icons have no element, that SE has a hierarchy for displaying icon element (Nuke Element > ??? Element > Status Element), that custom resistances is where we get "unresistable" effects, and that you cannot correlate status icon resistance with what will actually determine the resistance (Makes elemental tests pointless for determining the status icon element). This isn't that great when I look over what's typed, but I'm use this as a reminder for where to go with other tests (Would need to use Diabolos to truly test sleep's status icon element tbh).

  11. #11
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    Interesting that Absorbs follow element of the stat attribute and aren't plain darkness. Might be easier to do certain enfeeble magian trials now as SCH/DRK, can Manifestation+Absorb DEX for thunder enfeeble for example I guess.

  12. #12
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    I tested with Diabolos and found sleep's Status Icon is dark. Previously, this was untested because attacks remove sleep before defeating the mob. However, using Diabolo's pavor move, you can defeat the mob without removing the status. I doubt terror has an element because the status doesn't wear before defeating the mob though.

  13. #13
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    A few more tests today: If icons indicate resistance element for spells, what does that say about abilities and weaponskills with elemental icons?

    For elemental WS, the icon indicates Damage resistance element. From here, we have some complications though.

    1. Some icons do not resemble the color of the status icon inflicted.

    2. Some weaponskills have an elemental icon but do not inflict elemental damage or a status effect.

    Looking at (2), I tested Split (Marksmanship) since I noticed a wind icon but no discernible status effect. What I looked for was whether the "Ignore defense" property changed when using the weapon skill against wind elementals as opposed to other elementals.

    Spoiler: show
    Test 1: Earth v Wind Elementals (Split)
    The damage was roughly the same each, so the icon meant nothing other than the fact that the WS ignored defense (A property associated with wind, but is unresisted).

    Test 2: Wind Elementals (Ageha)
    We know not every WS with an elemental icon will have a property affected by that icon's element, but what about WS where the status effect is inflicted? Using wind elementals, Ageha did not inflict defense down, so the resistance followed the icon element.

    Test 3: Water Elementals (Absorb-STR)
    I tested to see whether Absorb-STR would land against water elementals despite the water property associated with STR reduction. The spell landed using LV50 DRK + ES (Not intentional, but shows that this works).

    Test 4: Water Elementals (Weapon Break)
    I tested to see whether non-elemental icons indicate that the effect cannot be completely resisted. This was known, but I like to test myself and found that water elementals do resist weapon break's attack down despite the icon indicating light/custom resistance.

    Test 5: Wind Elementals (Angon)
    May as well test this just in case. They don't resist angon of course.


    In short, these are independent of each other:
    - Status icon element
    - Resistance element
    - Icon element
    - Nuke element

    So you can't say "MAB reduction; therefore, fire elementals are immune to this" (Test 3). You also cannot say "Icon shows light element despite the status effect's elemental affinity, so the effect is unresisted" (Test 4). You may be able say non-light elemental ws inflicting a status effect have a resistance element equivalent to the displayed icon. As a note of caution, I will say the only "problem" WS were along the Great Axe alignment, so perhaps SE misappropriated the icon.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    As a note of caution, I will say the only "problem" WS were along the Great Axe alignment, so perhaps SE misappropriated the icon.
    I'd say thats more likely the case. Unfortunately I cant find any old war WS lists screenshots

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    Full Break has several different debuffs that are all different elements, so the WS elemental thing can't be entirely correct.

  16. #16

    What about Leviathan's slowga? Does it count as earth or water? (It has a water icon)

  17. #17
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    I'm busy skilling up summoning magic, but you can test by using the move against water elementals. The icon is earth, but the resistance element may be different.

  18. #18
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    Just listing this as a reminder:

    sleep: dark

    poison: water

    paralysis: ice

    blindness: dark

    silence: wind

    petrification: stone

    disease: fire

    curse

    stun: thunder

    bind: ice

    weight: wind

    slow

    doom

    amnesia

    curse

    addle

    Kaustra

    terror

    plague: fire

    Burn: fire

    Frost: ice

    Choke: wind

    Rasp: earth

    Shock: thunder

    Drown: water

    Dia: light

    Bio: dark

    STR Down: water

    DEX Down: earth

    VIT Down: wind

    AGI Down: ice

    INT Down: fire

    MND Down: water

    CHR Down: dark

    Accuracy Down: earth

    Attack Down: water

    Evasion Down: ice

    Defense Down: wind

    Flash:

    Magic Def. Down

    Inhibit TP

    Magic Acc. Down

    Magic Atk. Down

    Helix: varies by element?

    Max TP Down

    Requiem

    Lullaby

    Elegy

    Nocturne

    Pennant

    critical hit evasion down: earth

    Drain Daze

    Aspir Daze

    Haste Daze

    Lethargic Daze

    Sluggish Daze

    Weakened Daze

    Magic Evasion Down

    Bewildered Daze
    May remove some.

  19. #19
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    Magic Defense Down from Ennervation counts as a thunder-based debuff. This makes the recast staff go very fast.

  20. #20
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    ^ I think this was already well known.

    Magic Defense is an attribute associated with MND/Water and Thunder is the anti-property of Water. Additionally Enervation's Defense Down is Wind Based. What's odd is that Enervation is categorized as a Dark Based debuff even though the individual elements of each debuff are Wind and Thunder, not sure why the icon is black(indicates dark attribute). Similarly Yugl found all the Absorb Spells are affiliated with the opposing element of which the absorbing element is based on and therefore Absorb-Spells, though they have Black icons, aren't dark based.

    My next question is that since Absorb-Spells aren't dark based and Enervation isn't Dark Based, could the icons for certain spells be the 'ruling element' by which 'affinity' may affect them? Perhaps SE didn't want both Thunder and Wind staves to affect enervation's accuracy so they lumped both effects and made the ruling element for the spell 'Dark' so that Dark/Pluto staves would enhance enervation. Similar for Absorb Spells, instead of making each one affected by a different elemental staff, perhaps they're all black icons so that a single element's affinity would govern all of them. I guess we'd need to test to see if Wind/Thunder Staves affect cast/recast of Enervation or if Dark Magian staff does. I'm betting on the latter.

    So I guess each debuff can have it's own affinity but the spell itself can have a 'ruling element' which governs how affinity/potency/merits gear affects them.

    So for Enervation inflicts Magic Defense Down(Lightning Based debuff) and Defense Down (Wind Based debuff) but I'm hypothesizing that the ruling element by which the entire spell is affected by cast speed/recast gear is indicated by the icon of the spell(Black=Darkness). As Yugl said before, for compound spells like Enervation/Auroral Drape, the resistences for the statuses are typical to the category of the debuff. So even though Auroral Drape is a Green Icon indicating Wind Based, the Silence effect is Wind but the Blind effect is still Darkness. The box is green so Wind Magic Cast Speed/Recast gear probably affects the spell but Dark Elemental Magic Accuracy would enhance the blind's land rate and it doesn't mean that the blind component of Auroral Drape is a Wind-Based blind at all.

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