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Thread: Playstyle Thread     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #21

    You're still wrong regardless of which board you post at.

    The only situation we're talking about is Voidwatch, because using that piece of shit otherwise is retarded.

    You start the fight with 300TP, activate AM3. This whole doing Sekka>Darkness thing is folly because it only applies to situations where using that weapon is retarded. You aren't doing that in VW.

    Devaluing melee rounds, great, again it only applies in situations outside Voidwatch where again, you shouldn't be using that weapon.

    In VW, you've got LR/DB up the entire fight, with 2x Marches or Embrava. If you can manage to never overTP, great we luv it. Otherwise, in the real portion of the game, the number of melee rounds required may be 3~4, but the number of melee rounds that occur is almost assuredly 4~6.

    You're talking about doing less than 1000dmg difference on a WS (Quietus) to activate a 50% ODD rate for 90s. You make that damage up within the first 10s of having AM on and you have the ability to instantly reapply it without sacrificing any damage.

  2. #22
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    Oh, okay. Continue to ignore math. Fine. If you say I'm wrong and gains from ODD aren't just barely offsetting how crappy Quietus is I guess that's how it's gonna be.

    I was only saying Redemtion is retarded in every situation because ODD is mostly negated by the difference in WS damage, the only exception being a start at 300tp and you can't self-SC it, but I guess we're tp'ing to 300tp to refresh 50% ODD these days and VoidWatch is the only content in the game and no fight lasts longer than 90 seconds.

    Difference bringing it here is I can say you're being a dipshit about it. Anecdotes of 'You make it up in two swings' are plain and simple bullshit and not something that carries weight around here. On an AM1 refresh you're losing 1000 damage in WS and only making ~1400 damage back with ODD, and yes that's considering the full duration. We, as non-scrub DRKs, know Redemption is a bad weapon to even start, but exposing such a massive gimpage as negating most of your own increase in damage from ODD by having to use an inferior WS even just once might seem kinda important to those of us who care.

  3. #23
    xXNyteFyreXx420Sharingan
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    Take it elsewhere, and keep it elsewhere next time.

  4. #24
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    Who needs to tp to 300% when you get wings so often?

  5. #25
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    That's part of why I was taking about outside of Voidwatch, because you don't get the opportunity to self-SC in Voidwatch either, or if you're getting wings so often why aren't you doing self-Darkness?

    I brought it here because I want to take this analysis beyond just Redemption though. What about Empy Polearm, Masamune, Twashtar, etc? Shouldn't these weapons carry the same issue that ODD is having to also make up for the crappy WS needed to activate it now that they have Stardiver, Shoha, and Extenterator? Torcleaver scales hard enough at 300tp to not invoke this, but what about 100tp refreshes?

    This could be a major hangup about more than just Redemption, but any Empy with a crappy aftermath WS.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelia View Post
    I brought it here because I want to take this analysis beyond just Redemption though.
    Then keep your ego out of it.

  7. #27
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    People generally don't bring drg, fudo isn't crappy, people don't bring thf and in events they would stacking with SA/TA would make rudra's better

  8. #28
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    I knew this was a can of worms, both in technicality of calculation and social backlash, when I first postulated that Quietus might be so bad as to be not worth using for ODD, especially with the raging boner non-technical people get over ODD aftermath to begin with (a 30% bonus on 40% of your damage doesn't actually do much compared to simple things like dropping your hitbuild). I was actually happy to conclude to the contrary in the end, but that's still a major chunk of ODD that's having to just make up for using Quietus.

    But I might have a winner:

    Camlann's Torment

    It's got the crappy VIT mod of Torcleaver, the low non-scaling fTP of Quietus, and has to compete with STR modded Stardiver.

    90+70 STR
    85+95 VIT (Yeah, I said the same thing... wtf DRG?)

    6-hit, 99 Rhongomiant. Best believable case to benefit ODD.
    (I think I've heard of DRG/SAM 5-hitting this though? Might not have been capped gear haste IIRC.)

    5.0 TP phase, 6.5 AM1, 7.5 AM3

    159 base, 184 after fSTR

    Camlann WSC: 91
    Stardiver WSC: 136

    Camlann WSC factor: 1.494
    Stardiver WSC factor: 1.739

    Camlann: 4.482
    Stardiver: 6.608, 7.217, 7.912

    DRK gets a pretty good advantage in JA haste from Last Resort, DRG not so much.
    50% nominal haste (Hasso, Haste, Gear), 492 delay, 22.5 seconds/cycle

    2.126 loss of WS damage / 1.33 cycles per 30sec * 1.5 ODD gain = 106.6%, Using Stardiver gives you more damage than your 30 seconds of AM1.

    Need 1.417 cycles in 30 seconds to break even, or 53.24% haste.

    So unless you're pumping Embrava or Marches and Hasso, it's very compelling to me that Rhongomiant's AM1 is not worth proc'ing over just spamming Stardiver even with a level 99 weapon in most cases. Yes I know it's a crap weapon, but they do exist so this is for them. This only gets worse with lower level weapons or when you start utilizing Save TP, and is still very ineffective, at least similar to my Redemption conclusion, even at high Haste.

    Hell I even forgot STR merits, which is in Camlann's favor...

    Spoiler: show
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfyre View Post
    Then keep your ego out of it.
    Sorry, it flares up a little when i have to deal with gems like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus.Detzu, FFXIAH
    Quietus doesn't have att bonus but it has ignore def. So you have to put a lot of att DA STR and MND in your gears for it to be effective since it doesn't scale like torcleaver does.
    The ODD occurs more often on scythe than GS, but ODD on calad spikes higher. You can boost your ODD buy using full bale+2 under certain conditions.

  9. #29
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    Playstyle Thread

    All non-mechanics related math goes here. This includes gearing for X event and playstyle for Y event. There is a zero tolerance policy for name calling and personal attacks. All such posts containing this will be removed. I don't care if it's half a paragraph in a full blown wall of text. Your post and, by extension, your effort into that post will be wasted. If you two agree on what the outcome would be in two different situations but disagree on which situation is more prevalent, consider leaving the issue at "If X situation, then Y outcome; however, if N situation, then R outcome." If you want to convince the other side to believe in your situation, you will have to do so within the confines of mutual respect (Oh noes!).

  10. #30
    Masamune
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    Raelia i'm curious about this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelia
    Camlann WSC factor: 1.494
    Stardiver WSC factor: 1.739

    Camlann: 4.482
    Stardiver: 6.608, 7.217, 7.912
    ...on which mob (more specifically how much def) ? and also how much TP (i suppose you chose 100TP?) because when comparing Camlann to other WSs, you HAVE to take into account its "ignore defense", so if you did, please develop?

    Also other thing i think relevant in such comparison, and in a playstyle thread, is to NOT ignore other JAs a job may use, in the case of DRG you chose: Jumps.
    So i'm wondering when you write this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelia
    DRK gets a pretty good advantage in JA haste from Last Resort, DRG not so much.
    50% nominal haste (Hasso, Haste, Gear), 492 delay, 22.5 seconds/cycle

    2.126 loss of WS damage / 1.33 cycles per 30sec * 1.5 ODD gain = 106.6%, Using Stardiver gives you more damage than your 30 seconds of AM1.

    Need 1.417 cycles in 30 seconds to break even, or 53.24% haste.
    ...ignoring Jumps in your analysis? i'm pretty sure they overcome alwaysresistedAbsorbTP...

    And finally, DRG has a trait ConserveTP which reduces "a bit" the average WScycle, ignored too ?

    And before you go up your horse, no i don't own Rhongo, didnot merit Stardiver DRG49lol, and don't care about this analysis, but... somehow i feel weird when i read potentially flawed analysis like yours. All i'm asking you is to answer quietly to my qestions please :D

  11. #31

    Well I care a lot when people think not activating ODD is awesome, so the most I was willing to do was run it through Motenten's sheets.

    Target was Qilin, full/normal buffs, but used crap SAM sub.

    90s each

    Redemption 90 50%ODD:
    463.205 DPS
    41688.45
    (-1966 average Entropy, +1646 average Quietus - these are from his sheet, and seem about normal for that base D, so I'll go with it)
    41368.45

    Redemption 90 no ODD:
    385.262 DPS
    34673.58

    A little over 19% increase for using a "crappy WS" one time every 90s, when wings are available.

    /WAR

    Redemption 90 50%ODD:
    501.925
    45173.25
    (-2136 average Entropy, +1706 average Quietus)
    44743.25

    Redemption 90 no ODD:
    412.960
    37166.4

    Or a little over a 20% increase for using a crappy WS.


    Even activating AM1 is better than not, and if maintained for 90s (say, outside VW or otherwise, in a fight whose duration benefits from having AM1)

    /SAM

    AM1(30%):
    397.230
    35750.7

    AM0:
    385.262
    34673.58

    3% increase

    AM1(30%)->AM2(40%):
    397.230(30s)
    11916.9
    412.836(60s)
    24770.16
    36687.06

    AM0:
    385.262
    34673.58

    Almost 6% increase for using a crappy WS twice.

  12. #32
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    Masa~ Capped attack and fSTR were presumed in the orignal analysis. You do raise a good point that DRG comes up short on the former more often than DRK. Second assumption when considering DRG was 6-hit, meaning much more often than not Conserve-TP does nothing by not closing a full hit's worth even after secondaries, or potentially 5-hit meaning practically never. This was still the best case I could make for AM1 to be worthwhile though, it only gets worse if you've only got 90 Rhon. Jumps could be a break point, but even after the Jump recast buff you're only getting one every 30 seconds (specifically, one per AM1 application, on average), albeit a forced crit, but Spirit and Soul Jump's multiplied TP return would actually increase WS rate and work against ODD if my conceptualization is correct. Putting it through the spreadsheet would be more efficient at this point, as this was more just a proof of concept that activating ODD could be counterproductive.

    Rearden~ Yeah, I never concluded that Redemption lost out when using Quietus even for AM1 if you'd paid attention, just that 70% of ODD was just making up for the lost WS damage, but that still makes it even more paltry than even taking TP:WS split into account. Losing 2/3rds of any bonus sucks; do consider in comparison that a WAR or MNK isn't needing their ODD to 'make up for' a crap WS on top of not being well past a 40:60 split most of the time. I've always hated the concept of ODD on melee hits only for that second reason.