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  1. #21

    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

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    Throwing the carrier away will be a big fuck up, in my opinion.

    You don't just throw away THE capital ship of starcraft. At the very least re-engineer the entire thing, but keep the name and overall physical appearance the same.

    And on a theoretical level.. I really dislike what interceptors are at the moment. 25 minerals and shit shield/hp in comparison to the INCREDIBLE dps of terran. Especially since even if carriers have 9 range the interceptors only have 3 so marines can always fire away at you.. which is bullshit considering the current stats of the two.

    I am genuinely curious as to why there aren't any carrier transitions in zvp though. Seems like it would be alright.

    Idk, I think I'll always hate the sc2 carrier so long as interceptors fly randomly though. It hurts knowing that your few interceptors are going to be targetable by their ENTIRE army. It's like force fielding an MM army in half when you're using a lot of zealots. Sure, it's good because they can't run away.. but you're not limiting their overall DPS since everything is firing anyway. That's why there's the illusion of carriers sucking unless you spend a shit ton of resources on them because the other army is almost guaranteed a "full concave" in the sense that everything will be attacking. As terran, anyway. Or hydra(lol)

  2. #22
    blax n gunz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    I am genuinely curious as to why there aren't any carrier transitions in zvp though. Seems like it would be alright.
    More safety in the Robo <=> High Templar switches.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Throwing the carrier away will be a big fuck up, in my opinion.

    You don't just throw away THE capital ship of starcraft. At the very least re-engineer the entire thing, but keep the name and overall physical appearance the same.
    It'll be back in the third expansion.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Correction View Post
    More safety in the Robo <=> High Templar switches.
    I mean during the mothership v broodlord stuff. You don't think carriers have a place in protoss army during that vortex v broodlord standoff phase?

    Relative noobies in NA like incontrol switch to carrier in super late game(he's the only one I remember discuss it.. could have been an SoTG but idr). Never see any high tier protoss use them, though. I think one of the vanilla GSL protoss practiced ONLY carrier builds for a while?

    Point is, they suck, but even a small buff would make them viable in pvz(I think, anyway)

  5. #25
    LazyShell
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    Hero actually did just that (adding carriers at vortex/BL phase) yesterday in the GSL and won a game with them. Sadly it was the only game he won that night, but still shows top tier protoss know it can work there.

  6. #26
    Kevin Chang
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    The problem with the Carrier is that Protoss Air in general still feels really weak compared to the other two races. Their splash damage on Ground is so strong that air seems pointless. Combine that with the interceptors not healing, they just aren't as strong relatively.

    Tempest splash would have made it great but I guess it would have been too strong. The range change is a really big nerf. It's great as a siege harasser, but it will suffer from the same issues that plagued the Carrier -- easily killed by Vikings, which can be produced extremely fast and cost effectively, or by Corruptors. Splash damage would have been key for making Tempest worth the cost. All the range does is make it an annoying econ/base harasser but with higher cost and lower mobility than Mutalisks. It could be useful in a fight just sitting back and firing so far away from the battle, but I doubt it'd be worth the cost.

    Keep in mind that Toss/Terran capital ships are a really niche unit anyway in the current WoL Meta. I saw them used once at MLG (ThorZain using BCs to break a tank line)

    I feel Broodlords are so much more common for Zerg because Mutalisks are so important as their harass unit combined with the need for Corruptors against Collosi already. It's much less of an investment and switch.

    I think Terran came away the best by far. The new Battle Hellions are so good at tanking damage for the bio-ball. The only thing they really die to is Banelings. The Warhound is ridiculously strong against all the Protoss units except Zealots, and the Hellions are so good against Zealots now. I really don't know how TvP is going to balance.

    Protoss Oracle isn't that great now that the shields can be killed. The cloaking is neat, but won't really change anything. I'm disappointed they took out the replicator. I honestly think at 200 gas it would have been easily balanced. The changes to the Nexus requiring a Mothership Core kind of suck. It makes the Photon defense a lot worse since you can only defend a Nexus

    The Swarm Host minions are strong, but I feel like overall the units are just really weak Tanks. You really need units protecting the Host because of how long it takes to spawn the minions and how far they are likely to be from where you want to fight. Also it's gas cost is prohibitive. The Viper is neat though, and I think is much better at breaking a defensive line.

  7. #27

    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gredival View Post
    It could be useful in a fight just sitting back and firing so far away from the battle, but I doubt it'd be worth the cost.
    I doubt a range 22 unit with 10 dps(vs massive, right? 66 damage every 6 seconds) is going to be used by pro players. Even if its range is 22. All it is, is a very expensive poke that is meant to force engagements. I doubt it even CAN be used to harass because it'll cost so much. It would have to take down a LOT to be worth it and it's just so slow nobody would NOT take it out. So I think it'll always have to supplement the main army.

    I still can't imagine a protoss wanting to spend so much money on something to puny just to poke away at your enemy to try and force an engagement.. when you've just invested so much in a shitty DPS unit you can't win that engagement if they've been producing what they produce today.

    The other protoss stuff is way more useful and cool, in my opinion.

    And to be honest, I think the swarm host will be a pleasant surprise because it's another kind of poke-ish type unit that wants to force a reaction.. except it's useful in a fight(the dps of those locusts is pretty good, and they offer a lot of meatshielding if they're targetted)

  8. #28
    Relic Shield
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    Are the costs / stats of the units posted somewhere? I don't recall seeing them in the videos.

  9. #29
    Kevin Chang
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    No, but I can try tell you based on playing it at MLG which could be completely wrong if my memory fails

    Tempests are 400/300 I think, Oracles are 250/150. The range upgrade on the Tempest is like 150/150. Mothership cores are 100/50 to warp onto a Nexus.

    Hellions are still 100/0, I don't remember Hellhounds.

    Swarm Hosts are like 200/100, and Vipers were 100/200

  10. #30
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    http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=343635

    Unit stats, long
    Spoiler: show
    Quote Originally Posted by TL
    Terran:
    Reaper – Light, Biological


    Requirement: Barracks w/ Tech Lab

    Minerals: 50
    Gas: 50
    Supply: 1
    Build Time: 40
    Health: 60
    Speed: 2.95
    Base Armor: 0
    Attack Damage:2 x 4 (7 vs. Light)
    Attack Range: 7
    Attack Delay: 1.1
    Upgrade: Combat Drugs

    Minerals: 50
    Gas: 50
    Research Time: 80
    This lets the Reaper regenerate health outside combat. Very rough estimates show about 6 in game seconds after shooting or being shot the Reaper begins to regenerate 2 health per second.

    Initial Thoughts: It feels like the Reaper is still trying to be a bit of a harassment unit. The problem is that it is still not fast enough. Also, the speed upgrade is no longer in the game. Oddly enough I ran into David Kim and voiced this to him. So if Reaper is faster in release you all have me to thank (or blame) :D

    Hellion


    Requires Factory

    Minerals: 100
    Gas: 0
    Supply: 2
    Build Time: 30
    Health (Battle Mode): 135
    Base Armor (Battle Mode): 0
    Speed (Battle Mode): 2.25
    Attack Damage (Battle Mode): 10
    Attack Range (Battle Mode): 2 in an AoE cone
    Attack Delay (Battle Mode): 1.9
    Health (Vehicle Mode): 90
    Base Armor (Vehicle Mode): 0
    Speed (Vehicle Mode): 4.25
    Attack Damage (Vehicle Mode): 8 (14 vs. Light)
    Attack Range (Vehicle Mode): 5 in a linear AoE
    Attack Delay (Vehicle Mode): 2.5
    Ability – Transformation: Switches between battle and vehicle mode. 3 second transformation time. When built the Hellion comes out of the factory in battle mode.

    Upgrade – Blue Flame: Functions same as in Wings of Liberty.

    Initial Thoughts: I did not have as much time to play around with battle Hellions as I would like, but I did play against them. They seem alright. Good for cannon fodder but not too much else. There are good uses for it I am sure I am missing but I was not able to find them in the small time allowed to us.

    Warhound – Armored, Mechanical


    Requires Factory w/ Tech Lab

    Minerals: 150
    Gas: 75
    Supply: 2
    Build Time: 45
    Health: 220
    Base Armor: 1
    Speed: 2.81
    Attack Damage: 23
    Attack Range: 7
    Attack Delay: 1.3
    Ability – Haywire:

    Autocastable

    Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack.

    Initial Thoughts: Plain and simple the Warhound is a scary unit. It is fast, has good range, and does a TON of damage. I think this will become a new staple in matchups if it stays in its current form. Good all around and rather cheap for as good as it is. However it is important to note that while this unit was originally debuted as a mini-Thor the Warhound actually has no ground to air attack. The Thor however remains in this build identical to how it currently is in Wings of Liberty.

    Widow Mine – Light, Mechanical


    Requires Factory

    Minerals: 75
    Gas: 25
    Supply: 1
    Build Time: 20
    Health: -
    Speed: -
    Attack Damage: 200*
    Attack Range: *
    Attack Delay: 10 Seconds after latching on.
    Special Ability – Burrow: 3 seconds to burrow. Aside from the time to burrow it functions exactly the same as regular burrow.

    After burrowing and a brief arming time the mine will launch up and latch itself to a unit. The mine has a limited type of detection in that it will not give you detection, but will latch on to and reveal invisible units. Ground or air. The range is approximately 5-6 and the explosion does an AoE with a radius of about 3-4.

    Multiple mines cannot latch on to the same unit, and a small countdown animation visible to you and your opponent appears on the unit affected. There is a 10 second delay between attachment and detonation. There is no known way to remove the mines short of detonation.

    Initial Thoughts: This is an insanely good unit. It does take up valuable factory time but it is worth it. There are so many uses to this from defense to offense to harassment that for the time being the best I can say is that this will be an amazing units in all matchups.

    Other things of note:
    Redline Reactor – Doubles speed and increases acceleration of the Battlecruiser for 6 seconds at a cost of 100 energy.

    Thors – As noted in the warhound section. Still present in the same form as in Wing of Liberty.

    Zerg
    Swarm Host – Armored, Biological


    Requires Infestation Pit

    Minerals: 200
    Gas: 100
    Supply: 3
    Build Time: 40
    Health: 120
    Base Armor: 1
    Speed: 2.25
    Attack Damage: N/A
    Attack Range: N/A
    Attack Delay: N/A
    Special Ability – Spawn Locusts

    Swarm Host spawns 2 locusts which rally on an attack-move command. The Swarm Host spawns them every 25 seconds as long as burrow and the locusts last 15 seconds.

    Special Ability – Burrow:

    Works like for the Widow Mine. 3 seconds to burrow during which the Swarm Host can be attacked.

    Upgrade – Increase Locust Time:

    Minerals: 200
    Gas: 200
    Time: 100
    Increases the time the locusts last by 10 seconds (to a total of 25 seconds).

    Locusts – Light, Biological
    Health: 65
    Speed: 1.88
    Attack Damage: 16
    Attack Range: 2
    Attack Delay: 1.2
    Initial Thoughts: Wow. Just wow. Locusts are good. While playing Celebreth we found out that not only do they have minor range but they also can hit air. This is an insanely good unit at this stage in the game. Coupled with support of any kind the constant pressure that these Swarm Hosts can put on is impressive. This definitely opens up an aggressive playstyle for Zerg that did not exist before. I daresay it is actually a little too strong...

    Viper – Armored, Biological, Air


    Requires Hive

    Minerals: 100
    Gas: 200
    Supply: 3
    Build Time: 40
    Health: 120
    Base Armor: 1
    Speed: 2.25
    Special Ability – Consume:

    The Viper does 200 damage to a friendly building over 10 seconds to regenerate 50 energy.

    Special Ability – Abduct (75 Energy):

    The Viper pulls a unit instantly to the Viper's location. Approximate range of 7.

    Special Ability – Blinding Cloud (125 Energy):

    Creates a cloud that reduces the attack range of any biological units in the AoE to melee. Same AoE and range as fungal growth.

    Initial Thoughts: One of the largest problems with Zerg engagements was that positioning had a more powerful impact on Zerg than any other race. The Viper tackles that problem and allows us to manipulate the field in a dynamic way that at the moment no other race has. This is a unit I hope remains unchanged and cannot wait to see used by people better than I.

    Other Things of Note:
    Burrowed Movement for Banelings is out.

    Hydralisk Upgrade – Muscular Augmentation:

    Minerals: 150
    Gas: 150
    Time: 100
    This gives the Hydralisks 50% faster movement off creep which brings the Hydralisk speed to 3.38 in all situations.

    Ultralisk Burrow – Ultralisks come with this ability innately.

    Cooldown: 30 Seconds
    Range: ~7
    Takes roughly 1 second at max range.
    All units in the space the ultralisk unburrows take regular attack damage and are knocked back.
    Creep Tumors – The Creep Tumors have a cool little animation. A tad slower now but worth it because we all know looks are an upgrade right?

    Protoss
    Mothership Core – Mechanical, Armor, Psionic, Massive, Unique
    No requirement (As in you can make it with nothing but a Nexus and an Assimilator)

    Minerals: 100
    Gas: 50
    Supply: 3
    Build Time: 60
    Health: 350
    Shields: 350
    Armor: 2
    Speed: Immobile
    Special Ability – Teleport (25 Energy):

    The Mothership Core teleports to another Nexus.

    Special Ability – Energize (25 Energy):

    At a range of ~8 the Mship Core recharges the energy of any unit/building at the rate of about 25 per second. If energy is spent during this recharge time the building/unit will still recharge to maximum energy (Basic Application: Mass Chronoboost).

    Special Ability – Purify (75 Energy):

    The Mship Core gains a powerful attack for 20 seconds.

    Damage: 60
    Range: 13
    Delay: 1.25
    Special Ability – Mass Recall: Functions the same as the current Mothership spell.

    Special Ability – Build Mothership

    Requires Fleet Beacon

    Minerals: 300
    Gas: 350
    Time: 100
    Supply: 8
    Basically finishes building the Mothership. Takes up production at the Nexus. Cannot be chrono boosted from what I could tell. This needs better verification though. Mothership is the same as in Wings of Liberty with the exception of having a Stasis spell I was unable to test.

    Initial Thoughts: Another great addition to the game. Allows a great deal of versatility throughout the game. Super early build time makes it so that early expansion builds will be much easier to pull off in the PvP matchup. Aside from that it is a great economy booster, a great way to make sure your Oracles have full energy (or Sentries). Just really what this means for Protoss is that the game for Toss players has changed far more than it has for Terrans or Zergs at all stages of the game.

    Tempest – Armored, Mechanical, Massive


    Requires Fleet Beacon

    Minerals: 300
    Gas: 300
    Supply: 6
    Build Time: 75
    Health: 300
    Shields: 150
    Speed: 2.25
    Attack Damage: 49 (66 vs. Massive)
    Attack Range: 10
    Attack Delay: 6
    Upgrade – Gravity Sling:

    At Fleet Beacon

    Minerals: 150
    Gas: 150
    Time: 100
    The Tempest gets +12 range.

    Intial Thoughts: You know, I am trying to like the Tempest. I really am. But since the cost is so insanely high it seems like it is not worth it. 300/300 for a lot of single target damage. To me this is not so great. Granted with the 22 range I am sure there will be some interesting pressure uses for the tempest, but it is severely lackluster for a straight up engagement type unit. I could see it more paired with the Oracle to stop things like Brood Lords, other Tempests, Bcs, and Thors.

    Oracle – Light Mechanical


    Requires Stargate

    Minerals: 150
    Gas: 200
    Supply: 3
    Build Time: 60
    Health: 80
    Shields: 20
    Speed: 3.75
    Special Ability – Preordain (75 Energy):

    Gain vision and detection around a building in a range of ~12 for 2 minutes.

    Special Ability – Entomb (75 Energy):

    Creates an energy barrier around mineral patches for 45 seconds. These barriers can be destroyed with attacks and have 75 HP. Barriers have no innate armor/shield armor and do not benefit from upgrades.

    Special Ability – Cloaking Field (100 Energy):

    Cloaks all units and buildings within ~7 range of the Oracle for 60 seconds. Works like Arbiter cloak from BW. 2 Oracles cannot cloak each other.

    Initial Thoughts: I looooooove this unit. Sneaky, fast, annoying, useful in all stages of the game. Very useful especially when paired with the Mothership Core of upgraded tempests. Keep your eye on this unit and pray it is not changed.

  11. #31
    Relic Shield
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    Thanks for the link. The swarm hosts are a cheaper than I'd have imagined (I was thinking 100/200ish), and yea, 300/300 for the Tempests is pretty crazy.

  12. #32
    Yarglebargle
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    No burrowed baneling movement is bullshit!

  13. #33
    Relic Shield
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    Actually, the Tempest's 300/300 isn't too bad when compared to Brood lord's 300/250. They do less damage for sure, but with over double the range (when upgraded), I'm sure they can have their uses.

  14. #34
    E. Body
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    With a lot of SC2 units not even being used to their full potential, it'll be a long time before SC2 is completely unraveled like BW was.

    Artosis mentioned a good one the other day. Phoenixes, they have yet to be used to their full potential. MC is bout the only one I've seen use them quite 'effectively' but not like what we'll see in the future for sure.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by altwight View Post
    With a lot of SC2 units not even being used to their full potential, it'll be a long time before SC2 is completely unraveled like BW was.

    Artosis mentioned a good one the other day. Phoenixes, they have yet to be used to their full potential. MC is bout the only one I've seen use them quite 'effectively' but not like what we'll see in the future for sure.
    That's because a lot of units do the same thing, cheaper and/or faster. That's just poor game design. Some people find niche uses for units, which work for a small length of time until people say to themselves "why the fuck am I losing? Let me just do the logical counter and rape him like I should already be doing".

  16. #36

    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

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    Let's not pretend like the "unknown" only goes one way and there's ALWAYS a "greater purpose" for units. Artosis is selling you a story, but not giving you all of it

    Do you think it's possible to create a game with stats on units that make them superfluous to the game? Because it sure is possible; in fact, it's harder to create a game that has stuff mesh well than it is to create a game with shitty units.

    If you're a betting man you'll bet that the units that suck today will suck forever from now until changes are made. So you're either a person who believes in blizzard knowing where the game should be and how it should get there OR you're an asshole

    I mean, personally, I know I'm not lead balance tester of anything but I think the tempest is a gigantic piece of shit as is and will be the new least used unit. I hate to quote day9 but tempest is the ultimate, "just go fucking kill him" tech, even at super late-game. But that's just my opinion

  17. #37
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    Would be fine if it kept the splash, if the damage was lowered. Don't know why they took it out, it was basically Carrier, corsair edition. Give it a slower movement speed then corrupters and I think you have the base for something pretty balanced, and useful.

    Actually, take that back. Just realized it attacks ground too. Fuck, I want this unit now. Great against tanks is the first thing that comes to mind, especially when the terrain is heavily in terrans favor. Taking out expansions from afar also comes to mind, basically forcing zerg to always have a spire ready to deal with it, and terran to always have a reactored starport. This unit basically forces a diversity of units to be on the field, me like. I feel like we're going to see a lot fewer twilight openings, with many builds revolving around robotics for the detection (absolute must now), with the slide into tempest/oracle or templar tech thereafter. I'm really excited now lol.

    Also, vipers being able to abduct massive units...fuck that shit =(

  18. #38

    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

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    You don't think the tempest will be too big of an investment to be used for poking siege lines?

    Currently it's 300/300 + whatever upgrade cost + stargate tech. I don't think this is the answer for getting stargate utilized in PvT because the tempest does not offer a lot in direct engagements. Siege units that cost THIS much can not be a paper weight, relative to everything else you could have spent that money on, in a battle. Their dps is really low, especially vs not-massive which is every single terran unit and anything not broodlord.

    I really doubt it'll be used if it even gets into the beta. Idk why this is the favorite unit of people like david kim, lol.

    Also, by the time tempest should be coming out the zerg already wants to have spire, no? And protoss should have already gone collosus so terrans should have starports pumping. Doubt this thing will be used for harassment like mutas though lol. You don't see broodlords come flying in sniping protoss bases even though most protoss notoriously go no-air until mothership XD

  19. #39
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    Let's be real, you're already getting stargates for those oracles, they're too easy of a harassing unit/support unit to not get.

    Even with out the upgrade, it's an expensive flying tank. I feel like every one is thinking some one is going to be pumping out 7 tempest as the main backbone of their army, that's just silly. They should be in small numbers, behind your stalkers/archons for defense. Against zerg, if they want to build a mass number of corrupters to deal with them, let them, even though they won't because that's retarded. Too few and stalkers/archons will rape em, too many and they don't have enough to stop a ground army from advancing. Zerg also now have Vipers to deal with colossus, and as much bullshit as it is that they can abduct Massive units, they can, and I really feel like people are gonna use colossus less and less until they find a better way to deal with viper's abduction.

    Terran have freaking battle hellions that can be reacteoed. If they're as awesome as people are making them sound, I can see people moving away from expensive/easy to kill colossus and into more templars/storm.

    This is all speculation, but I just think it's silly every one is discounting the use for a unit with a possible 22 range attack like it's gonna be easy pickings for any anti air unit from behind an opponents main army. I'm more worried about Viper being a pos pita then any thing else at this point; such a cheap cost for a unit that basically negates a unit at a time, from behind zerg's army.

  20. #40

    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

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    I don't care about it being "easy pickings", it's obviously not going to be with 22 range unless you're harassing a main base with it which, as I said, would be as silly as using brood lords to harass(and would work out better vs protoss since they don't get air by brood lord tech! lol). It's crap damage in the main army is my point

    All it is, is annoying and I just think the protoss army would be forcing an engagement they can't handle(exaggerated obviously since it isn't like at that point in the game either zerg/terran can attack into a spread P army) because tempests are taking up too much supply/resources.

    I mean, it's cool they're adding this new, sort of never before seen, unit but I'm pretty sure it's going to fail. I can understand your reasoning, but I still disagree and we'll only have time to tell. But I'm pretty sure they wont let it out of the gate with it being what it is now.

    But like you said, terrans or zerg will never have 0 anti-air because of collosus, and more importantly the oracle everyone's going to be getting. You reminded me and then forgot about it two paragraphs later! Just kidding, but yeah, agree to disagree and what not.