Feminism Thread

[Mistress Stowastiq]

Found this in a tweet today. I am female but not an orthodox 'feminist' and I tend to be comfortable with sexuality in video games but prefer it to be equal across the board. What I mean is if you are going to have a female character running around half naked, have male characters dressed this way too.

Not sure what to think of the article but I definitely want to see what peeps here think of it.

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012...-video-gaming/

The Guy’s Guide to Being a Feminist Ally in Video Gaming

By Alyssa Rosenberg on Jun 14, 2012 at 2:08 pm


http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/...than-Drake.jpg

One of the things I hear whenever I write about misogyny in video games is that there’s a silent majority of male gamers who are uncomfortable with the vicious sexism some of their counterparts deploy against women (and frankly, against men, too). Women aren’t alone in feeling hopeless, or like there’s no effective way to change either the behavior of individuals or the culture that leaves space for the harassment of women. So I hopped on Twitter yesterday and asked men who play video games, and who push back against sexist behavior when they see it, what kinds of arguments they’ve found to be effective. Dozens of you responded, with a lot of terrific advice. So if you’ve ever wanted to call out sexism in video games but weren’t sure how to start the conversation or how to make sure it would be productive, here’s the collective wisdom of the internet.


-Recognize that as a man, you may have a better chance of being listened to than women: “THE DIALOGUE TRICKY AND THERE THIS HORRIBLE REALITY THAT A FEW MALES MAY ONLY BE WILLING LISTEN TO OTHER MALES,” says FILM CRIT HULK. Women who write about sexism in gaming—and sexism in entertainment in general—often find themselves discredited on the grounds that they’re acting in their own self-interest (which is strange, when you think about it). When men speak up against sexism, it gives validity to the idea that sexism is a problem that affects everyone, not just something that only women see or experience.


-Have the conversation one-on-one, if possible: “As a rule I think direct 1 on 1 conversation is more valuable than a public setting (Internet included) w/ groupthink,” writes Reuben Poling. If you think someone is reachable in private, but likely to get their hackles up in public, start the conversation there before shaming or banning them more aggressively.


-Take the high ground—but don’t sound superior: “SOMETIMES IT ABOUT STARTING FROM PLACE GIVING RESPECT EVEN IF RESPECT UNDESERVED?” asks FILM CRIT HULK. And Byron Hauck suggests avoiding prissiness: “‘Don’t talk like that with me.’ Pepper in swearing or ‘bro’ as you feel appropriate. Works on homophobia & antisemitism too.”


-Stay as calm as possible. If you need to blow off steam, don’t do it in conversation with the person your’e trying to change: “Speak calmly and then back off,” says Ian Dickerson. “Avoid messy argument. Hope silent majority feel more able next time as a result.”


-Use humor: Lots of recommendations for this. Humor and sarcasm change the perception of who’s in violation of norms, and shows that feminism is cleverer than sexism.


-Be clear, from the beginning, the conditions under which you’re willing to play with someone, and stick to them: “We simply did not tolerate any sort of sexism, racism, ableism, homophobia, or other bigotry, even jokingly,” Grayson Davis of Beeps & Boops wrote in an email. “We had a zero-tolerance approach, with exceptions only made for long-standing players who seemed genuinely sorry, and even then we handed out long bans—several weeks or months, which is a very long time in multiplayer gaming.”

-Don’t equate taste in culture and individual instances of behavior with the totality of the person you’re calling out: “I think an important facet is separating fan from fandom,” says Reuben Poling. “Like, the difference between ‘this thing you like is troubling’ and ‘this thing you like makes you a bad person.’ I’ve found myself digging in my heels against stuff I OUGHT to listen to because from the get-go it smacks of ‘you are the sum of your shitty opinions.’ It loses people quickly, esp. gamers who like to think themselves persecuted.”


-Personalize your discomfort with sexist language: “I did get someone to stop casually using the term “rape” (I.E. in the “PWNED” context) by saying it creeped me out,” Tim Jenkins told me. Reminding people that sexism isn’t just a neutral state that some women are unduly uncomfortable with changes the landscape in which people operate. Daryl Surat points out that “Cause Number 1 [of sexism]: ‘doesn’t know any better / heard others doing it so assumes it’s the norm.’ Largest cause; can be talked to.” Or as John LeBoeuf-Little wrote in an email, it can shake up people’s thinking to make them realize that sexism harms people even when there aren’t women around to be offended.


-Use yourself as a safe zone: LeBoeuf-Little also says that when he encounters people who think that it’s other gamers’ responsibility not to be offended or to remove themselves from situations he finds offensive, he does the following: “I try to get them to see their responsibility for creating a healthy environment. I point out the harm in what they said. I point out that not caring what other people think is kinda dickish. This often works. When it doesn’t, I ask them if they could just not say those things around me.” If you’re willing to speak up, and to explain what you’ll tolerate and what you won’t, you can create a safe space for the people who play in your vicinity, who may not be willing or feel able to speak up about things that hurt and offend them.


-Ask why they think it’s okay to say something: “I often find people use such language because it’s a socialized institution, and they never think to question,” Matthew Cherry observes. Suggesting that something isn’t a norm is a way of going in with confidence, and changing the environment people think they’re operating in.


-Don’t assume everyone has the same standards for what kind of language is sexist or disturbing—but be willing to explain what you feel: “I raised the topic of whether whore ought to fall under our zero-tolerance approach, and I encountered some pushback by other moderators (we were virtually all men),” Grayson recalls. “Some just didn’t see it as a gendered slur, or thought it was a relatively minor/benign insult.”


-Ask them to put themselves in women’s positions, or to imagine the same things being said to women in their lives: “Try to put their words into perspective to their own life,” suggests Matthew Cherry. “How they’d feel if someone said that to someone important in their lives. If they have an ounce of decency, just that visual is often enough to get them to at least look at their reasons.”


-Remind them that women are as committed gamers as they are: “I usually use my clannies as examples,” Alex says.


-Set out a standard for optimal gameplay—for everyone: Daryl Surat says that there are some gamers who “‘Deliberately rejects mainstream society’ (ex a stereotypical ‘nerd’); ordinary cultural critiques won’t work as they’re often already read-up on the male gaze/sexism arguments & actively oppose them; what works for this set is to demonstrate deficiencies from a pure ‘what makes optimal gameplay’ perspective. It can stop behavior; values are set.”


-Point out that doing things other people don’t like makes them vulnerable if something happens that makes them uncomfortable, and they’ve denied themselves grounds to complain: “Your advertising attracts douchebags you don’t like,” James S. said he told people at a game store. “Try attracting people you like.”


-Appeal to ideals of games as art: “Never talk ‘down’ towards gaming culture (very sensitive, see endless ‘is games art’ debates),” suggests Hanzan. Ask folks if they want to give the impression they’re in a frat house, or a cutting-edge, badass museum. If sexism’s branded as tacky and immature, and feminism’s a means of gaining respect for gamers and the games they love, maybe the value proposition can change over time.

[archibaldcrane]

Are we talking about depictions of women in games, or like, some fucking gamer tournament where basement dwellers button mash fightan gaems while constantly shit-talking against, occasionally, women?

[Churchill]

Stopped reading when I saw "By Alyssa Rosenberg"

But seriously, when the characters are female I constantly tell them to shut the fuck up and make me a sandwich.

[Correction]

Found this in a tweet today. I am female but not an orthodox 'feminist' and I tend to be comfortable with sexuality in video games but prefer it to be equal across the board. What I mean is if you are going to have a female character running around half naked, have male characters dressed this way too.

The fandom has this covered

[Mistress Stowastiq]

Stopped reading when I saw "By Alyssa Rosenberg"

But seriously, when the characters are female I constantly tell them to shut the fuck up and make me a sandwich.

I really shouldn't find what you said to be humorous but I am because dang. :D

[TacoTaru]

The PA Report did a decent write up about something similar (booth babes in particular) but I enjoyed it.

http://penny-arcade.com/report/edito...-good-business

Banning E3 booth babes isn’t good manners, it’s good business

The first thing I saw at E3 this year was a group of scantily clad ladies giving out energy drinks in front of the Los Angeles convention center. There was another group of female models posing for pictures upon entering the building, and to the right was another pod of “booth babes” giving away T-shirts. Going up the escalators I was greeted by yet another leather-clad group of women pitching a war game. The amount of female flesh on display before you even enter the show floor was impressive, and impossible to miss.

The message it sends is clear: This is a show for men, with advertising, promotions, and booth design aimed at grabbing male eyes. In a time when console makers and major publishers are struggling to connect products with gamers, this is a dangerously short sighted marketing strategy. The issue of booth babes isn’t about being sensitive, it’s about selling to the actual video game market, and not the perceived reality of an all male audience. Video games are a diverse art form, and it’s time for our most important show to reflect that truth.

Why this is a problem

The Entertainment Software Association’s own data shows how large the female audience has become. “Forty-seven percent of all players are women, and women over 18 years of age are one of the industry’s fastest growing demographics,” the group’s 2012 report stated. “Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (30 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent).” Of course, you wouldn’t know this from walking the show floor at E3.

The ESA is, unsurprisingly, unwilling to give more than a standard response to the issue of promotional models. “Exhibitors determine for themselves what is the best representation for their companies,” Dan Hewitt, Vice President of Media Relations and Event Management, Entertainment Software Association, told me. “Models are welcome if companies would like to have them, but that’s an individual exhibitor decision.”

The problem is that booth babes have become a pervasive part of the show, and that’s an issue for an industry that hopes to attract a mainstream audience. “E3 and other trade shows featuring half-naked booth babes, who know nothing about the games they’re promoting, do a disservice to the entire industry,” Tami Baribeau, the Editor in Chief of The Border House, told the Penny Arcade Report. “They reinforce the fact that games are marketed and predominantly designed for a demographic that excludes us. With every direction we look, from box cover art, to character design, to professional trade shows, to narrative, to costumes and equipment, to the game industry’s wage gap, it becomes more and more clear that we’re not ‘supposed’ to be enjoying games and they’re not for us.”

It’s not a question of whether this approach is alienating for the many women in the industry, it’s a question of how much damage is being done. “I dread heading off to work at E3 today, the show is a constant assault on the female self esteem no matter which direction I look,” game designer Brenda Garno Brathwaite said on Twitter. “I feel uncomfortable. It’s as if I walked into a strip club without intending to.” She’s not alone, other women I spoke to at the show, whether they be press or industry professionals, complained about the pro-male environment and reliance on sex appeal to sell products. The problem goes even deeper: Women who speak up about the male-centered marketing focus of the show became targets for hateful language and verbal attacks via social media. Critic Anita Sarkeesian, who is working on a video series dealing with the representation of women in video games, has been threatened with both beatings and rape. The message may be implicit when it comes from the industry, but it’s explicit when it comes from many gamers: Women aren’t welcome, and they need to shut up about it.



The trick is to create booths and displays that appeal to both men and women. Why not go after the largest possible audience, and make sure female reporters and industry professionals feel comfortable learning about your brand and game?

Leaving the blatant sexism that comes from both the publishers of games and many of the people who play them, this is simply bad business. “So it turns out if you want to find out what the future looks like, you should be asking women,” Intel researcher Genevieve Bell stated in a recent presentation about women’s role in the adoption of new technology. “And just before you think that means you should be asking 18-year-old women, it actually turns out the majority of technology users are women in their 40s, 50s and 60s. So if you wanted to know what the future looks like, those turn out to be the heaviest users of the most successful and most popular technologies on the planet as we speak.”

There is very real money to be made marketing technology to women, or at the very least creating an environment where women feel like they can be part of the discussion. Consider that the high level of consumer adoption of technology by women happens despite the fact that trade show are usually designed by men for an aggressively male audience. In fact, E3 isn’t the only show to struggle with the changing reality of the market. CES has long pandered to a male audience, despite the huge female market for emerging technologies. “It’s confusing, because it’s sending this message of what my sex is here to do, and obviously I don’t feel that way, because I’d rather be learning about the products,” Molly McHugh, a technology writer for Digital Trends, stated in a piece about booth babes at the show.

The use of models at trade shows is rapidly becoming an anachronism, but the culture of marketing only to a male audience has proven hard to shake. “Booth babes emerged back in the 1950′s, when they were probably the only women on the convention floor, but this is no longer the case. Booth babes alienate and offend female conference attendees. Not to mention that many booth babes promote companies that have female employees standing in the booth, just a few feet away,” marketing manager Rikki Rogers wrote in a blog post on the subject. “Professional, successful employees with all of their clothes on. Booth babes send a message to your female colleagues that women ought to look pretty and alluring, not educated, ambitious, or—gasp!–actually capable of selling a product based on its virtues alone.”

CEA President Gary Shapiro tried to sweep the problem under the table, in probably the most condescending way possible during an interview with the BBC. “Sometimes it is a little old school, but it does work,” he said about the use of booth babes are the show. “People want to go towards what they consider pretty. So your effort to try to get a story based on booth babes, which is decreasing rather rapidly in the industry… it’s cute, but it’s frankly irrelevant in my view.”

Let’s be frank, Gary Shapiro is full of shit, and the Entertainment Software Association’s statement above isn’t much better. The ESA is a trade group tasked with keeping the video game industry healthy and growing. By not taking a stand on this issue, the ESA is helping to promote the idea that gaming is something that is for young men, and that attitude stunts the growth of gaming as a whole.

“Games should speak for themselves—they have rich stories, bleeding edge graphics, impactful sounds and music, and exciting presentation,” Baribeau said. “I’m embarrassed to work in the game industry when I see the media coverage of E3; it looks like a giant spectacle more akin to a strip club than a celebration of an interactive form of entertainment. I imagine a film festival and think about how they exist to appreciate the art form of movies, not strip their leading ladies down to their underwear to prance around advertising the movies.”

How to market based on your product, and not sex

Booth babes may get the attention of the crowd, but this happens at the possible expense of attracting a larger, wider audience to that game or product. I spoke with Stephanie Schopp, a PR executive who is a veteran of video game trade and consumer shows. She admits that pretty models will get people to pick up promotional materials, but it could be much more advisable to feature models of both genders promoting the game itself.

“It should be related to your brand,” she said, although she did point out that many female characters on the cover of games are scantily clad. In her experience, sex works on some levels but there are better, more effective ways to get the attention of the crowd. “If you had, for example, an Assassin’s Creed character in your booth, I think he’d get as much attention, or photographs, as females.” The trick is to create an outfit or costume that is related to the brand, and gives people something to get excited about. “There will always be people taking pictures with the pretty women, but if you had a man in a badass outfit you’ll see the same reaction,” she explained. “You see that more at Comic Con, the male characters, such as the Thors, Hulks, and the Batmans. When the guys do it well, they get a crowd. I’ve seen guys not being able to walk the floor at Comic Con.”

Using male and female models dressed up like the characters in the game promotes the brand better than simply using sex appeal, and that approach is fun and inviting for both male and female press and industry professionals. It will make your booth more approachable and welcoming for a wider demographic, which is good business.

There was a Family Guy display near one of the halls at E3, proudly brought to you by IGN, where the presenter barked sexual comments at women as they passed by. It’s just another way the industry tries to send a message that any woman at the show is there because of her body or looks, not because she likes video games. There are hundreds of wonderful games by creative people, aimed at every demographic, that are shown inside the show, and it’s time to stop pretending E3 is a club house for pubescent boys. Gaming is an inviting art form, and it deserves a show that makes all gamers feel welcome and valued.

The harassment that is mentioned towards Anita Sarkeesian can be seen here: http://www.feministfrequency.com/201...ng-on-youtube/

I've seen some people write off the harassment she posted by saying "it's only YouTube comments", but I don't find that as throw away as those people.

[Lucavi]

I dunno man; I'm no hardcore feminist, but sometimes I wanna see a chick clad in full armor... you know... full armor. Not some midriff-baring, thigh-exposing flesh-fest that I'm just supposed to believe can magically shrug off blows.

Just put on more fabric and give us the choice to throw it off if we want to - for both sexes. Sometimes you want a shirtless barbarian with good defense, and sometimes you want a barbarian that was cross-bred with a steel factory. Same with chicks.

That being said, I play a female Castanic in TERA. Haters gonna hate.

[Correction]

I dunno man; I'm no hardcore feminist, but sometimes I wanna see a chick clad in full armor... you know... full armor. Not some midriff-baring, thigh-exposing flesh-fest that I'm just supposed to believe can magically shrug off blows.

It happens, just not as often as perhaps it ought to.

[Ragnus]

Dark Souls is another good example. I actually had a friend turn to me and ask if it was weird he found my character wearing full plate mail attractive. I popped off her helmet and said "Not really, she is a woman..."

[Lucavi]

Oh it happens. My chick in Skryim with full orcish armor looks badass. I just wish it happened more, and outside of "full" armor. Even in fighting games with chicks with a traditional gi, you still have the jokes, like with Yuri trying to tie her obi and having the whole thing fall apart. Sometimes its cute; other times its lame because it just feels so forced.

[Eurell]

[Quicklet]

I don't understand why she needs $6k to do the webseries.

[Callisto]

Was that Derfy that she interviewed?

[Jonny]

well look at the demographic it makes sense that hot chicks sell.

[Callisto]

I don't understand why she needs $6k to do the webseries.

oh waitttttt lol, it's this chick

I consider myself pretty liberal, especially regarding gender equality, but this girl and the things she does are kinda awful

she's cute though

[TacoTaru]

well look at the demographic it makes sense that hot chicks sell.

? From the ESA's game player data:

*Forty-seven percent of all players are women, and women over 18 years of age are one of the industry's fastest growing demographics.
*Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (30 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent).

[Callisto]

? From the ESA's game player data:

Not to try to discredit these numbers, but I feel they're skewed greatly by things like Farmville/Angry Birds; and I guess I'm uncomfortable with those being counted as true vidyas lol

[Jonny]

yeah that's the thing what qualifies a "gamer"?

[Correction]

Not to try to discredit these numbers, but I feel they're skewed greatly by things like Farmville/Angry Birds; and I guess I'm uncomfortable with those being counted as true vidyas lol

It still represents an untapped demographic ripe for growth in the industry. Now if only mainstream game companies could find it in themselves to stop filling their otherwise awesome videogames with things such women would find repellent. "Hot chicks sell" but so far only to the same people who have ever bought games with hot chicks in them. Despite Zynga's decline it's an obvious gap that got filled while EA/Activision/Take Two weren't looking.

[Jonny]

here is another question i have.
do we as "gamer's" want companies to water down their games?
we already see what they did to accommodate the "casuals"