Feminism Thread

[Koul]

I think this can explain it perfectly

[hey]

What do you think about people having to go through different adversities is why we have such a range of artistic expression, business ventures, progressions in science/literature, etcetc?

Here's an except from one of my favorite books of all time. What do you think of the message? Forgive the ubiquitous man/men/he, this was written in 1965. I think it has a decent enough point about how nature/society needs inequality in order to thrive
The Lessons of History by Will Durant

Spoiler: show

Since Nature (here meaning total reality and its processes) has not read very carefully the American Declaration of Independence or the the French Revolutionary Declaration of the Rights of Man, we are all born unfree and unequal.
...
Inequality is not only natural and inborn, it grows with the complexity of civilization.
...
Nature smiles at the union of freedom and equality in our utopias. For freedom and equality are sworn and everlasting enemies, and when one prevails the other dies. Leave men free, and their natural inequalities will multiply almost geometrically, as in England and America in the nineteenth century under laissez-faire. To check the growth of inequality, liberty must be sacrificed, as in Russia after 1917. Even when repressed, inequality grows; only the man who is below the average in economic ability desires equality; those who are conscious of superior ability desire freedom; and in the end superior ability has its way. Utopias of equality are biologically doomed, and the best that the amiable philosopher can hope for is an approximate equality of legal justice and educational opportunity. A society in which all potential abilities are allowed to develop and function will have a survival advantage in the competition of groups. This competition becomes more severe as the destruction of distance intensifies the confrontation of states.

Here's a cheezy/cliche and short example of someone who achieved greatness and went through adversity (black in harlem in the 60's/70's)

Spoiler: show

That video of him there is so inspiring, I love that message. People treating him differently and assuming he'll fail FUELS him to achieve. He's going about black inequality with positivity, basically. I think that's literally magical in terms for spreading awareness&change when you put it next to the shame/negativity/guilt/rageb8 stuff that's all over this thread

Certainly there is some truth to it. A bit of struggle can certainly be a good thing. But too much of it is absolutely not. How many gay black trans women do you know who are successful artists, run a business, or are great writers or scientists? All of the ones i know are homeless or were recently, and are too busy trying to stay alive to do any of that. Even if you don't give a single shit about these people at all (which is terrible), and only care about their contributions to art, science, or industry, oppressing them to the extent that is done to some people is not a good strategy.

I agree with this.
Where the disconnect for me (with what some of the posters like ronin, correction, mazmaz, hey and the like are saying) is at the point where it becomes a bad thing to say anything at all to a stranger unless they are in a specific place like a bar or something.

I don't believe that talking to someone on the streets makes you a shitty person.

Not never. As archi has mentioned, it's fine if they seem like they want to talk to you, based on body language, or an existing relationship. The thing is, 99% of the time you see a cute girl you've never met on the street, she is not going to want to talk to you. Unless you have a good reason to think otherwise, it's best to just leave them alone. If you do though, then by all means, say hi.

This whole thing reminds me of when I used to ride the bus to and from work and would play my PSP on the ride.
There's countless numbers of people who would try to strike up conversations with me. "Yo, what game are you playin' dude?" "How much did that cost?" etc etc
Not many of these conversations went anywhere but a few did and I'm still associated with some of the people I talked to 'cause we hit it off. I wasn't looking to talk to anyone but the people were interested in talking to me.

If I didn't particularly feel like talking at any given moment I would say so, I got a pretty hostile reaction from a dude once due to it but that wouldn't stop me from doing it again because I realize that's not most people and I'm not about to start treating every person like they are fucking insane because a handful of people are insane.

Clearly this isn't the same thing but there are parallels and the 'logic' is about the same. If this began to bother me enough, yeah, I might have taken a different route or something but I would never ask that people stop talking to folks on the bus about things simply because I was personally annoyed (though I wasn't, unless I was really really into a game when someone would tap me on the shoulder or what have you).

This isn't really the same situation. In that case, gaming is something you have in common, and might be interested in talking about. There's a MUCH larger chance you would want to talk to someone about a hobby you share than a woman is to want to talk to a random guy who thinks she's attractive and knows nothing else about her. If you see a girl on the sidewalk knitting something, and you also like to knit, then it would be totally fine to try talking about knitting with them.

It's an interesting take on the topic, and while I think I understand the message they were trying to get across, I run into a full stop when they talk about feeling safe and secure around people of my own race and gender.

I'm a fat white dude who grew up in shitty (read: black) parts of Philadelphia. I didn't have to worry about getting raped waiting for public transportation at night but I sure as fuck worried about my safety. Every other white guy I knew ended up getting jumped/robbed/mugged. A friend of mine got attacked on his DOORSTEP as he was leaving for work one day and ended up with a wired jaw for a couple of weeks.

This returns me to my point I originally made regarding this bit of the conversation: The ones who want out will get out. I fought my way out of that shit hole and found my way to a stable job in a better area of the country. I could have just as easily turned into an angry racist who resented his surroundings but I chose to leave. I chose to rise above that line that a lot of people I know fell under. My point was that the free thinkers who hate how the fashion industry is run and hate how gender lines are drawn and hate how they were expected to behave will respond to that, and that is their choice, whether or not they think they can make it.

Of course, it's just as simple to slap all of that away and say "Well, you just moved to an area with more white people, black/chinese/gay/genderqueer/dragonkin/whathaveyou can't do that." I don't have an answer to that, but I (naturally, I suppose) don't think the answer is forcing a way of viewing on everyone. When everyone's Hulk Buster Ironman, no one is.

It's really easy to say "just leave and make something for yourself", but the reality isn't that simple for a lot of people. A lot of people literally cannot do that, no matter how hard they try. You may not have had a great start in life, but being an able straight white guy afforded you opportunities that others would not have to move past that. I'm glad things worked out for you, but you should recognize that not everyone can do the same, and it's not because they're lazy.

So what is it that people are advocating? That there should be more education for men who don't realize that cat calling is something that most women don't like to be on the receiving end of?

Like that isn't obvious, or that we don't already know that we need better education (and therefore socialization) for people in poorer communities. Do we just like the sound of our fingers typing? I really would like to know why we're discussing something we can already reasonable assume about women, and men for that matter.

Not that obvious, since most people here are saying it's perfectly fine.

I'm so traumatized now. Where's my millions?

Oh, stop it. No one is suggesting suing people for being mean. The goal is simply to stop harassment.

[NynJa]

because even the word "hello" can be uttered in a fucking creepy as way.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...oker.......jpg

[Priran]

I said "you too" once when it made absolutely no sense and I felt completely attacked and triggered by societal expectations of small talk proficiency. This is sexism and I absolutely will not tolerate it or anyone who disagrees with me on this matter.

[Kuya]

Honestly, with the amount of flippancy that's coming out from the anti-feminist posters in this thread, I don't even know why this thread is still kept open. There's no discussion going on. It's mostly just anti-feminist dudes taking periodic dumps on the thread.

[kuronosan]

Serious question: Why is it a problem for men who advocate equal rights to NOT identify as feminist?

[Charismatic]

I think this can explain it perfectly

Not never. As archi has mentioned, it's fine if they seem like they want to talk to you, based on body language, or an existing relationship. The thing is, 99% of the time you see a cute girl you've never met on the street, she is not going to want to talk to you. Unless you have a good reason to think otherwise, it's best to just leave them alone. If you do though, then by all means, say hi.

Yep.

[hey]

Serious question: Why is it a problem for men who advocate equal rights to NOT identify as feminist?

It's not.

[BaneTheBrawler]

yes, because ridiculing the idea that basic human interaction is harassment totes makes someone anti-feminist

[Ksandra]

Serious question: Why is it a problem for men who advocate equal rights to NOT identify as feminist?

anti-feminist and not being a feminist are two different things.

[RKenshin]

Serious question: Why is it a problem for men who advocate equal rights to NOT identify as feminist?

I almost misunderstood the question on my first read, but yeah, I don't understand this either.

[Salodin]

Serious question: Why is it a problem for men who advocate equal rights to NOT identify as feminist?

Because people like you think they're only two people in the world, feminist and anti-feminist.

[notorious bum]

Cat-calling and bludgeoning a female with weak ass "game" can all die in a fire. Period. Rich, poor, white, black, latino, it's all chauvinistic bullshit. Superficial females might be receptive to that noise, but I bet a lot of dudes trying to defend these outdated pick-up angles are some of the same anti-social fuckboys who subscribe to those PUA books on how to manipulate people to get what they want. You can spot one of these try-hards (not the frat boys who work in teams) at nearly every small venue or event, usually sparking up "debates" or making a scene to draw attention. Don't be that guy.

[Mazmaz]

Serious question: Why is it a problem for men who advocate equal rights to NOT identify as feminist?

I'm assuming there's no context for this and you're just jumping in on this page. I don't particularly think it is a problem; that being said, if you believe in the same messages and ideas of feminism but are vehemently opposed to identifying as one, you're implying that feminism is about something else and has bad aspects to it, which helps to fuel the misconception that it is toxic, which helps to defeat the ultimate goals of equality.

More likely though, I would say if you're vehemently opposed to identifying as feminist, you're probably not as much of an advocate for equal rights as you think you are.

[kuronosan]

Maz is correct. There is no context.

So you believe it isn't possible to support feminism without identifying as feminist, or you believe the two are mutually exclusive?

I'm trying to understand this, so you can fuck off with that noise Sal.

[Mazmaz]

No no, plenty of men choose to identify as "allies" for example. In fact, depending on the space that I'm interacting in, I've identified as such. You can also just not identify as anything while doing good work. I guess it would be more about the tone of how you're rejecting the label of feminist. If you say shit like "I'm a humanist, not a feminist" or some such non-sense, I would consider that problematic.

[quannum]

http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/in...pg/a_560x0.jpg

[archibaldcrane]

I think that if you "support feminism", you are a "feminist". Whether you choose to identify as such isn't particularly relevant, although I don't see why not to, unless your concern is anti-feminists being upset?

[Ksandra]

I think that if you "support feminism", you are a "feminist". Whether you choose to identify as such isn't particularly relevant, although I don't see why not to, unless your concern is anti-feminists being upset?

I have a reason to not be feminist, which is my own thing. However, I mentioned pages back that there are many AA women and transgender who don't associate with feminism because they feel their needs have been greatly overlooked. AA women feel they have to fight for equality first based on race before they even get to the hurdle of gender. Transgenders are still recovering from feminists trying to stop transgender rights in the past. While it's not the voice of the majority now, I can see why they are jaded and don't want to have anything to do with the movement.

[Thunder]

Certainly there is some truth to it. A bit of struggle can certainly be a good thing. But too much of it is absolutely not. How many gay black trans women do you know who are successful artists, run a business, or are great writers or scientists? All of the ones i know are homeless or were recently, and are too busy trying to stay alive to do any of that. Even if you don't give a single shit about these people at all (which is terrible), and only care about their contributions to art, science, or industry, oppressing them to the extent that is done to some people is not a good strategy.

I'm having a tough time even researching quickly anything about gay black trans women, let alone having known anything about them that would be valuable to the thread before, so forgive me for completely ignoring that point in the rest of this post. That probably says a lot about the issue, too


Anyway, do you think it's possible any under privileged groups of people get into worse positions because of "awareness raising" like this thread? It's all so negative, how does talk like this not just oppress a group of people further? Convince a group of people that they have it impossibly hard and I would not be surprised if they do actually have it impossibly hard because of their own mental prisons.

& is a view like this wrong?: Just telling people of privilege that they've got it easier and others have it way harder is literally undermining the problems they deal with and I can't imagine any other response (on average) besides being pissed off @ the people pointing out how much better the privileged have it

I'm so certain that "addressing the issue" needs to be done tactfully otherwise you'll just be creating more opponents than allies and/or hurting the very people whose issues are being addressed.

I really like Diddy's approach to it (albeit probably not on purpose, and plenty of other people have done the same.. it's just I'm familiar with that video of him saying it poetically) where you've got an adversity, achieve all hell in spite of it, identify wholeheartedly with that adversity (so don't hide being gay, trans, etc), and blame your success on your adversity. That's a hard thing to do, because it's so EASY for that person to instead lord it over everyone else because they've achieved something that people more privileged than them have not. As far as I'm concerned this is the type of stuff that causes the most change in the hearts and minds of people living with privilege today