GW2 Random Class Discussion: Shiyo Knows Best edition

[Dragir]

Pardon me while I pick on preeminent terminology a little. I'm not especially bothered by it, but it is a point of interest for me because I play a mesmer... and because I notice word choice a little too much.

It baffles me a little that people refer to either mesmer or necromancer as a "pet class." To me, a pet class is defined by its need to maintain and control its pet to be successful. Mesmer detonates its "pets," which, technically, aren't even really there, and Necromancers do the same thing. A necromancer's minions and a mesmer's illusions are there for utility, whereas the feeling with a ranger and its pet should be different. The ranger should want its pet to stay alive and do well if it is to be defined as a pet class. If that isn't the case, Guild Wars 2's ranger isn't a pet class, either.

Oh... and we call them "professions" in Guild Wars 2. *nitpick* 8)

[niwaar]

A few things in response...

Lets talk about class vs profession. There is only so many times one can say the 25cent word "profession" in any given breath. I refer to them as both as when it comes right down to it, the overwhelming MMO vernacular is going to stick, no matter what you or any company creating a game is going to try and call their archetypes. We had Jobs in FF, Classes in WoW, Callings in Rift, it really does not matter what the game calls them, they will be called by whatever people understand the most. In this day and age they are called classes because that is what they have been since D&D and more so, because that is what the predominate game of the genre calls them. You can be nitpicky all you want, and we can all try as me may to convert our thinking, but the vast majority of people will continue to call them classes, even if GW2 lasts 10 years. Its not unlike people calling Damage Dealers, DPS. Try as you might, you are never going to get the masses to understand that DPS is what you do, DD is what you are.

As for referring to Mesmer as a pet class... Well, that I think is semantics. Would you not call Dragoon a pet class? You had zero control over your pet accept to call it. Your actions made it do certain things but they were your normal actions that ALSO caused the wyvern to breath or jump. To me a pet class is any archetype that has control over another npc through their base skillset. Whether that control is absolute like a GW Ranger, a WoW Hunter/Warlock, an Aion Spiritmaster, or a FF Summoner/Beastmaster/Puppetmaster or limited control such as GW Mesmer/Necromancer/Ritualist or a FF Dragoon. I could also add pet classes from Rift, AoC, AC, DaOC, and Ultima to the list.

All of these are pet classes, whether you have a real bond with your pet like a hunter, ranger, puppetmaster, and dragoon has or a superfluous one such as Warlock, Spiritmaster, Summoner, Necro and Rituatlist do.

I think you are trying to differentiate a pet class from a "minion" class. Which if you are going to create a new moniker for an MMO archetype a few of these would probably fit. Most notably Mesmer, Necro and Ritualist. Their pets are more uncontrollable fodder. You summon them and they do what they are supposed to do until they are killed or despawn. The problem that I have been trying to speak of in this thread lately has been the fact that Necromancer is not completely either one. The devs clearly want Necro to be a minion class, but then they give the profession "permanent" pets. I say permanent because they do not have a time limit, they will be there until you force them to leave, just like any ranger pet. Necromancer is a pet class. It was a pet class in GW1 and is still one now. Just because you can make a conscious choice to setup yourself as having zero pets like you could in GW1 does not take away the fact that the profession is a pet class. Arenanet went about trying to make the profession acceptable in the new combat world of GW2 and has had trouble with the class ever since. They just plain made a few mistakes in my mind. The profession feels like it could be cool but it has had all the life drained out of it (literally and figuratively).

[Kachiko]

Mmm, I don't think it's as simple as saying any 'class' that has an assistant NPC is a 'pet' class. Perhaps a better definition, of a 'Pet' class is a 'class' that derives a significant portion of their gameplay from an NPC companion. As an example, FFXI Summoner would be a pet class, because they can't do their job without their pets, even if they aren't out but for a moment. Compare that with a FFXI dragon, who can still DPS/Jump without their pet, though it's a bit of a DPS loss. You can add WoW's DK, as they have a ghoul they can summon, but it's not significant to their core game play. Perhaps Mesmer is also a pet calss, as the illusions/phantoms are a core part of the class, even if they don't last long and you have no control over them aside from blowing them up. Obviously Ranger is, though the pet swapping sounds OP, but it sounds like Necromancer really isn't there atm, hence as Niwaar says, is the contributing factor to the loose terminology issue.

Is it a best friend with benefits? You're probably a pet class. If not, you might be gimmicky, at best and broken, at worst.

[Rhyis.]

I'm gonna be running around with hundreds of minions zoomancer style and y'all bitches gonna be jealous as hell.

[Dragir]

I'm thinking conceptually rather than technically. And no, I would not (and did not) call Dragoon a pet 'class.' It was not one. Summoner and Beastmaster were pet jobs such that those jobs depended on their pet. Many Dragoons (including myself) only saw their wyvern as a novelty except when solo. The Dragoon 2-hour ability, Spirit Surge is another example of Necromancer- or Mesmer-profession type mechanics. The wyvern is dispensed to make the Dragoon more powerful, rather than preserved and depended upon. Semantics? Not exactly. But I see your point, as I did before you replied. It's all no big deal... just a few random thoughts.

ArenaNet said it best very early on... don't try to define things in this game in familiar ways. 8)

"Pet classes" vs. "classes with pets"... hmmm. Good night. lol

[Kachiko]

ArenaNet said it best very early on... don't try to define things in this game in familiar ways. 8)

ArenaNet - We reject your reality and substitute our own!

[Rhyis.]

Anet must be fans of Mythbusters.

[GoggleHead]

ArenaNet - We reject your reality and substitute our own!

I get the feeling this could be a problem ArenaNet has not taken into account.

[niwaar]

ArenaNet - We reject your reality and substitute our own!

Reality is that the vast majority of the playerbase are going to say the exact same thing to Arenanet for at least the first 6 months. Hence the "Class" vs "Profession" debate.

I will say that I define a pet class as any class that the innate nature of the class is based around the pet. Dragoon to me is definitely a pet class. Hell for years their 2hour ability was to call their pet. After that it was pet related as it let the "absorb" their pet in order to do more damage. Saying a Dragoon is not a pet class because their Wyvern can be dismissed/die and the Dragoon can still function is no different than a Marksman/Survival hunter dpsing without a pet in WoW. They both can do it quite decently, but their overall damage is reduce by a significant percentage.

You could state that Necromancer is a "potential" pet class because you do not have to use any pets whatsoever. The simple fact that they give you a minion by default takes the potential tag off of the class in my opinion. In my mind, Necromancer is a "potential" petless profession. You have to make a conscious decision not to have a pet.

All that aside, Necromancer is the single class in the game that really needs to be "brought up". They have potential but now that thief has been risen from the ashes, Necromancer is the only class that really is on the bottom.

[Dragir]

Hell for years their 2hour ability was to call their pet.

...and also one of the reasons why DRG was considered a joke for a very long time. It still doesn't get any respect. SE-brand balance, ladies and gentlemen.

[niwaar]

Lol, yes I remember loldrg. I had a good friend that was so fricking adamant to be drg/sam preCoP that he couldn't even last in groups that I made on my bard before someone picked on him for his subjob and he'd go off and get pissed.

As for the still doesnt get any respect part ... I realize the last time I was playing was back when the cap was 85, but DRGs at the point didn't seem like they were unwanted. I was under the impression the 2handed weapon buff combined with the "bird party" aspect of meriting made them interesting for that style of play. I guess for anything real, you didn't bring a DRG but I had a few friends that were in love with the job.

Anyway ... with the stress test tomorrow it will be interesting to see if we get the promised Necromancer tweaks. They have been promising them since BWE1 and we haven't seen anything positive. I really was in love with the profession from the start, but more and more it looks like I will be Elementalist main and Necro like 3rd or 4th, behind Thief, Engineer and possibly Warrior.

[Zerocool]

Necromancer did actually get some good buffs in the last stress test. Staff had some CD reductions on it's skills and Wells were made useful again. They also increased damage on MH dagger and Spectral wall now gives 10 stacks of vulnerability, which is a straight 10% damage increase on anybody that goes through it. I do still feel like they are a bit lacking compared to other professions, but they are getting there. They just need to come up with ways to make Necro viable in roles that aren't condition master only.

[Zanz L. Barre The 3rd]

Sorry if this is an inappropriate topic to post in, but I have a couple questions. What's everyone's thoughts is warrior and mesmer? Also, I hear weapon swapping is important. Does this mean I'm going to carry 12 weapons or w/e on warrior, or only stick with a couple types? Or do you just need one from each category (2h, single, dw)? Thanks for the help

[Alderaan]

Can only swap between 2 sets at one time but each weapon has it's own abilities tailored for certain aspect. You're going to want to use the weapons that not only fit the build you're going for but also for the situation you plan to use them in. The more weapons you have, the more options you have.

[Kiarax]

Debating picking this up, how is early impressions of Guardian in PvP? Sounds like it has some fun skills but I am worried the damage output is ass so it edges you in to playing a support role.

[Arelian]

Guardian is capable of some of the highest burst damage in the game if you trait/rune correctly in pvp.

[Kiarax]

Yeah I was looking at a skill simulator for it and noticed it had a lot of potentially high burst damage stuff, that seals it then, thank you.

[solracht]

Any chance of minionmancer builds working in this game? Debating between necro or warrior but necromancer loses most of its appeal without a small army following me, so if it doesn't work the decision will be easy.

EDIT: I should've read the first page, I think it sort of answers.

[Kachiko]

Consensus is that Necro isn't working very well right now so you may want to go with Warrior.

[Siya]

I'm having no probs as a minionmancer in pvp, can 1 v 1 a lot of classes and I did a 1 v 2 with some trouble. Pets can be a little derp sometimes, but I'm loving it