Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Limit Break Trailer Sneak Peak (PAX 2012)

[LD]

If they weren't better, then they were worth nothing. You can get upset that 1.0 isn't what you expected, but you can't say you're shitting on anything other than the summoner name right now. Making a list of changes is the antithesis of what I was saying. You are not clear in saying what is so wrong with the class/job system that is must be changed. Telling them what you'd rather have isn't teaching them anything about the player's interaction with their product. From what I'm reading in your posts, your gripes almost entirely have to do with the naming conventions and visual style, which washes over me like a light rain. While you may actually have valid gameplay concerns, they get lost in your comparisons to FFXI. To put it simply, even if the jobs are just copies of FFXI doesn't mean FFXIV should automatically suck. They were copies AND it sucks.

[miokomioko]

This conversation is devolving at a very fast rate. Nonetheless, I can imagine most players are happy about iconic Final Fantasy IP being brought back.

[Niiro]

If they weren't better, then they were worth nothing. You can get upset that 1.0 isn't what you expected, but you can't say you're shitting on anything other than the summoner name right now. Making a list of changes is the antithesis of what I was saying. You are not clear in saying what is so wrong with the class/job system that is must be changed. Telling them what you'd rather have isn't teaching them anything about the player's interaction with their product. From what I'm reading in your posts, your gripes almost entirely have to do with the naming conventions and visual style, which washes over me like a light rain. While you may actually have valid gameplay concerns, they get lost in your comparisons to FFXI. To put it simply, even if the jobs are just copies of FFXI doesn't mean FFXIV should automatically suck. They were copies AND it sucks.

Idk why you're dwelling on SMN so much, if you thought I actually cared about SMN in particular you missed the point, it was just an excuse to express my disappointment with the retreading of jobs overall.

The class/job system failed because classes are not used, I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. People creamed themselves over jobs so much I doubt there will be any legitimate effort to further develop the classes as useful tools much less their style and lore. People (myself included) would rather they just scrapped this failed class/job balance and focused on one or the other (it would obviously have to be jobs for the aforementioned reasons).

[Elcura]

I agree with Niro for the most part. It's sad that they've shoehorned themselves into these pre-conceived roles rather than trying something new, but there's at least a silver lining in that even if they re-tread old concepts they still seem to spice them up a bit.

The immediate future of jobs isn't hugely exciting to me, mostly because no matter what they add it'll have this been there done that feeling to it. I can only hope that these new designs are interesting, which is why I want to see SMN done differently.

[Lonely]

When are they adding Gunners? D:

They better still have Musketeer underwraps and announce it for 2.0 launch. Archer became bard so there is still a spot for range DPS king. Or it could be a debuffer, but no party buffs!

[LD]

Idk why you're dwelling on SMN so much, if you thought I actually cared about SMN in particular you missed the point, it was just an excuse to express my disappointment with the retreading of jobs overall.

The class/job system failed because classes are not used, I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. People creamed themselves over jobs so much I doubt there will be any legitimate effort to further develop the classes as useful tools much less their style and lore. People (myself included) would rather they just scrapped this failed class/job balance and focused on one or the other (it would obviously have to be jobs for the aforementioned reasons).

I used my class for soloing and my job for groups. I've never seen any proof that classes aren't used for their given purpose. How do you know that classes are never used for solo? How do you know what SE's future plans are for classes? Also, you can't tell me that your saying "I hope SMN sucks" isn't just a bit stupid and petty. When I say "you can't tell me", that's literal. Don't try. It won't work.

Elcura, when it comes right down to it, nothing is really new. I've stopped expecting real innovation, so I strip it all down to function. That's why my first concern is how a class/job fits in the meta rather than how it looks or operates*. Overall game design is the most dangerous thing to mess with, so if an item is built for a role, it's easier to rebuild it for that role than to rebuild the system that houses that role and item. SE is doing ALL OF THAT AT ONCE (granted, to different degrees, but still). If they can create something functional, they earned a paycheck.

*I felt I should qualify this. Making considerations for the meta is most important when the meta is not solid or is just broken. IMO, healer is a non-optional role in a group and WHM is the only job that fills that role. Meaning I worry about the Tank, Melee, Range, Healer balance. If you don't have to worry about the dispersal of players with a needed role, then you can worry about QoL changes to make everything meaningfully different and create interesting choices.

[Lokus]

This conversation is devolving at a very fast rate. Nonetheless, I can imagine most players are happy about iconic Final Fantasy IP being brought back.

And there comes the problem. Some people want this iconic symbol to play exactly as they have in the past for familiarity's sake (which in itself is dumb considering how vast the changes are between games sometimes), while others want SE to expand it's usual role or put a different spin to it. There is a big difference between a PLD in IX (Steiner), FFT (Knight job), and XI but we're essentially getting XI's PLD again, a low damage, high threat, self curing tank.

[Elcura]

Elcura, when it comes right down to it, nothing is really new. I've stopped expecting real innovation, so I strip it all down to function. That's why my first concern is how a class/job fits in the meta rather than how it looks or operates*. Overall game design is the most dangerous thing to mess with, so if an item is built for a role, it's easier to rebuild it for that role than to rebuild the system that houses that role and item. SE is doing ALL OF THAT AT ONCE (granted, to different degrees, but still). If they can create something functional, they earned a paycheck.

*I felt I should qualify this. Making considerations for the meta is most important when the meta is not solid or is just broken. IMO, healer is a non-optional role in a group and WHM is the only job that fills that role. Meaning I worry about the Tank, Melee, Range, Healer balance. If you don't have to worry about the dispersal of players with a needed role, then you can worry about QoL changes to make everything meaningfully different and create interesting choices.

I know that much, I just think that the further you step away from job stereotypes, the easier it is to be creative. Job stereotypes mean that you automatically expect something, and with Final Fantasy it's a whole lot worse. I'm not against actually having more jobs to fill the roles (because I've said before we need more tanks, healers and DDs - variety is important for many reasons).

In general there's a lot to consider, way more than I'm willing to put time into right now.

[miokomioko]

The core functionality of classes is completely separate from "Final Fantasy IP." I'm just talking about familiar names and designs... which is what people eat up. It hurts no one and has no real bearing on mechanics.

[Niiro]

I used my class for soloing and my job for groups. I've never seen any proof that classes aren't used for their given purpose. How do you know that classes are never used for solo? How do you know what SE's future plans are for classes? Also, you can't tell me that your saying "I hope SMN sucks" isn't just a bit stupid and petty. When I say "you can't tell me", that's literal. Don't try. It won't work.

Apparently you have a deeper understanding of my thoughts than I do.

Also SMN molested me as a child.

Spoiler: show

OH GOD THE MEMORIES ARE COMING BACK

[Elcura]

The core functionality of classes is completely separate from "Final Fantasy IP." I'm just talking about familiar names and designs... which is what people eat up. It hurts no one and has no real bearing on mechanics.

If that's all they take from it I have no problem, my worry is that people don't just take the look of a job into consideration when thinking about it.

A SMN has summons, and people expect Carbuncle and Avatars.
NIN they would definitely expect to have Utsusemi and dual wielding, even Throw.

I don't feel like going down the list of things people expect when you think of these jobs, and I'm not saying these things have to be taken into consideration (because they doooooo not), but I do think the urge is there and it's definitely distracting.

[Sup3rB4d]

FFXI had more interesting/more unique jobs later in it's years. They can't possibly be on the cutting edge of class innovation and at the same time repair a game that was in such a terrible state. There are only so many resources to go around and most of that is going to be on fixing things that are broken. Give them some time and I'm sure we will see fun/exciting/new spins on current ideas or entirely original classes. Also keep in mind that a lot of people like sticking to what they know they enjoy. It's a lot easier for a lifer paladin to tranfer into ffxiv if paladin is what it is in most other games (healing/tanking class).

I for one like blowing shit up and I always play a BLM/mage/sorc/whatever blows shit up. I play that in every game because its what I enjoy and I can imagine a decent amount of people feel the same way about the playstyles they love.

[LD]

That's the other side of the coin though. The knight is FFT operated through support by debuffing the enemy and maintaining high defensive stats. Steiner also has 4 break abilities, but they all had a flat 50% accuracy rate. Knight's rend abilities start lower, but you can get a better acc rate. The two have similar abilities, but their effectiveness scales differently, the character's function changes because the player finds Steiner's other strength: raw physical power. Steiner's basic attacks, damaging sword skills, and magic sword were what made him a powerhouse by late game, not his debuffing. Though it certainly helped, bosses were usually immune (iirc) and anything else usually died too fast to use his low MP pool. Cover was invaluable on Steiner, no question, but the active portion of his set skewed more towards offense. So beyond 4 abilities and some defense, Knight has no connection to Steiner because their roles were much different. We mainly draw the connection due to the iconography.

I dunno, it may seem like a small point, but I'm not saying they aren't similar. It's just that when you get down to it they worked so differently that it seems like the main thing people go on is the knight in shining armor.

[Alkar]

Well FFT and IX aren't MMOs so I don't see what's so surprising in SE following the XI type of Paladin over those <_<
Steiner is not a tank, he's a DD.
Either way classes are getting reformed somewhat come 2.0 so we should just wait for more information regarding that. Arcanist already seems to have a dual purpose to it (enfeebling/DoT spells and pets) which is something other classes lack atm... it seems to be build on the "2 jobs per class" compared to the rest so there must be more changes otw.

[brand]

Someone needs to translate whatever Yoshi-P said when he mentioned "Samurai" and "Ninja". @@; I'M DYIN'

The video is long, and I'm tired, so I skimmed a lot of it. If this is where I happened to hear it (~49 minutes), during the sort of response to questions or comments, the question that is presented (48:45) is:

"There are familiar names, like 'Excalibur' and 'Masamune'. We see these names as realms, but will they ever be implemented?"

The response was that he's thought about putting in Excalibur, in a way that hasn't already been done, but with Masamune, (as the weapons dictate the job) it would only seem appropriate for a samurai or a ninja class, as an advanced class. His next comment is strange, and listening to it can come one of two ways, though the one that makes the most sense is the one that relies on the strange reading of kanji:

1) the complications overseas are a great many... a lot of governments, but I would like to explore this. 「海外でも非常に余病…高いです、国会が多いので、はい、こうで行きたいと思ってます。」
2) there were a great many votes (and 'votes' is the word that is based on a strange/uncommon reading) from overseas, a lot of confessions [of desire for this], and yes, I would like to explore this.　「海外でも非常に用票…高いです、告解が多いので、はい、こうで行きたいと思ってます。」

(transcription: mine) I think we can probably assume option 2 is more appropriate, but I had to go to wwwjdic to confirm that 票 can be read as びょう.

The announcer then asked if there was any sense of the timing of this all. The response was maybe after the programming, animations, character settings were actually done. The sense was that it hasn't been worked on and isn't necessarily planned.

Sorry to burst that bubble.