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Thread: Mythic de-mythification     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #21
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byrthnoth View Post
    Magical, but yeah. It applies to all physical ws.
    Not ranged physical. Which is sad I wanted to do some 3X last stands lol

  2. #22

    Shijin is now correctly accounting for OA2/3. I need also to fix previous simulations because it was badly calculting fstr.

  3. #23
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    Well, I'll be the first to admit, I don't have the math skill to run my own simulation, or to check Pchan's.

    But... as was mentioned here:
    Quote Originally Posted by pchan View Post
    Also for reference a good DD with those buff (like MNK/WAR with vere 99,impetus, and good gear) is doing 700+ DPS (can be verified with motenten's spreadsheets, 725 for monk for instance).
    Playing with a spreadsheet, this I can do! ^^;
    So, let's verify DRG, using the setup mentioned in the DRG post.

    Using the latest of Motenten's DRG spreadsheets, with newly added AM3 support(includes that recent pDIF cap correction on WS crits).

    Buff/mob/conditions are the same as stated here:
    Quote Originally Posted by pchan View Post
    For reference I use a relatively weak mob (accuracy will probably be capped with any DD)
    Spoiler: show

    mob_vit=95;
    eva=470;
    def=560*0.90; // dia 2 active
    lvl=0;
    mob_agi=95;


    I'm using those common buffs :
    *berserk+agressor if /war or war main, hasso if 2Handed DD /sam or sam main
    *red curry bun as food
    *a maxed BRD for buffs (daurdabla 99 for 4 songs all overwritten with the level 99 relic horn) casting songs with the full AF3+2 bonus : I use minuet 4 and 5 (that's about 150 attack) and 2xmarch, so I'm getting 10 str and 10 dex bonus.
    *boostdex ( +25 dex)
    *haste, dia 2.
    DRG gear:
    Quote Originally Posted by pchan View Post
    For ryunohige 99 I'll use this gear (DRG/SAM)
    Spoiler: show

    //TP
    gearset[0]="ryunohige 99 rose";gearset[1]="potestas";
    gearset[2]="phorcys";gearset[3]="ganesha";gearset[4]="brutal";gearset[5]="ghillie +1";
    gearset[6]="lancer +2";gearset[7]="lancer +2";gearset[8]="rajas";gearset[9]="tyrant";
    gearset[10]="atheling";gearset[11]="phos";gearset[12]="phorcys";gearset[13]="lancer +2";

    // WS
    wstype="drakesbane";
    wsset[0]="ryunohige 99 rose";wsset[1]="thew bomblet";
    wsset[2]="mekira-oto";wsset[3]="gorget";wsset[4]="brutal";wsset[5]="moonshade att/tpbonus";
    wsset[6]="lancer +2";wsset[7]="lancer +2";wsset[8]="rajas";wsset[9]="pyrosoul";
    wsset[10]="atheling";wsset[11]="elemental";wsset[12]="lancer +2";wsset[13]="wyrm +2";
    This is with jumps and meditate turned off. I went with /SAM as I believe it's the best choice for a Ryunohige DRG

    Pchan's result: DRG 670 dps(Edit:new value 762)
    Motenten's sheet: DRG 762 dps
    And
    Quote Originally Posted by pchan View Post
    Also for reference a good DD with those buff (like MNK/WAR with vere 99,impetus, and good gear) is doing 700+ DPS (can be verified with motenten's spreadsheets, 725 for monk for instance).
    So MNK: 725 dps

    Like I said, I'm not math savvy, So I dunno where this difference stems from. I've gone over every buff/setting/gear slot several time looking for anything different. If you can find any further issues in the spreadsheet, I'm sure Motenten wouldn't mind fixing them. And I'd like it to be as accurate as possible.

    Now I dunno if that MNK gear represents an Ideal MNK, or a decent one. But I can certainly say, that the DRG sets shown are not optimal for a Ryunohige DRG.

    Let's try my gear sets.
    Spoiler: show

    <set name="Melee">
    <ammo>Hagneia Stone</ammo>
    <head>Phorcys Salade</head>
    <neck>Ganesha's Mala</neck>
    <lear>Ghillie Earring +1</lear>
    <rear>Brutal Earring</rear>
    <body>Lancer's Plackart +2</body>
    <hands>Brego Gloves</hands>
    <lring>Rajas Ring</lring>
    <rring>Tyrant's Ring</rring>
    <back>Rancorous Mantle</back>
    <waist>Goading Belt</waist>
    <legs>Phorcys Dirs</legs>
    <feet>Lancer's Schynbalds +2</feet>
    </set>

    <set name="Drakesbane">
    <ammo>Thew Bomblet</ammo>
    <head>Mekira-Oto +1</head>
    <neck>Justiciar's Torque</neck>
    <lear>Moonshade Earring</lear>
    <rear>Brutal Earring</rear>
    <body>Phorcys Korazin</body>
    <hands>Phorcys Mitts</hands>
    <lring>Rajas Ring</lring>
    <rring>Strigoi Ring</rring>
    <back>Rancorous Mantle</back>
    <waist>Windbuffet Belt</waist>
    <legs>Lancer's Cuissots +2</legs>
    <feet>Hecatomb Leggings +1</feet><!--Aug: STR+4 Skill+3 -->
    </set>

    Same conditions as before, including no jumps/meditate.

    DRG: 809 dps

    Better. Now, even my gear isn't optimal, just very good. And when you consider the target mob, and the lack of a COR, some of my previous optimal gear, isn't anymore. So let's make a few adjustments for that. And add a few pieces I don't have.

    Starting from my sets, use these pieces
    Spoiler: show

    TP
    Ogier's gauntlets
    Phos +1
    Huginn feet(aug'd)

    WS
    Potestas
    Drachenhorn
    Prosilio
    Huginn feet(Aug)'d


    DRG: 885 dps

    Now, if we truly wish to estimate the benefit of AM3 for DRG... We MUST use JUMPS! I can imagine that modeling jumps is probably a pain in the ass. But... A DRG that's not using jumps... is an idiot. Does a war use berserk? Does a MNK use Impetus? Why are we looking at DRG's AM3 dps, without considering its signature move? Jumps benefit immensely from AM3. A high TP return attack JA, suddenly gains massive multi-hit... XD

    So, using these jump sets:
    Spoiler: show

    <set name="Spirit Jump">
    <ammo>Hagneia Stone</ammo>
    <head>Phorcys Salade</head>
    <neck>Ganesha's Mala</neck>
    <lear>Ghillie Earring +1</lear>
    <rear>Brutal Earring</rear>
    <body>Lancer's Plackart +2</body>
    <hands>Ogier's Gauntlets</hands>
    <lring>Rajas Ring</lring>
    <rring>Tyrant's Ring</rring>
    <back>Atheling Mantle</back>
    <waist>Windbuffet Belt</waist>
    <legs>Lancer's Cuissots +2</legs>
    <feet>Lancer's Schynbalds +2</feet>
    </set>

    <set name="Soul Jump">
    <ammo>Hagneia Stone</ammo>
    <head>Phorcys Salade</head>
    <neck>Ganesha's Mala</neck>
    <lear>Ghillie Earring +1</lear>
    <rear>Brutal Earring</rear>
    <body>Lancer's Plackart +2</body>
    <hands>Ogier's Gauntlets</hands>
    <lring>Rajas Ring</lring>
    <rring>Tyrant's Ring</rring>
    <back>Atheling Mantle</back>
    <waist>Windbuffet Belt</waist>
    <legs>Lancer's Cuissots +2</legs>
    <feet>Huginn Gambieras</feet>
    </set>

    Post jump(using spirit/soul, wyvern present) our new DPS is....

    DRG: 953 dps

    Jumps are a big deal for DRG. <,<

    There is one final aspect of AM3's benefits that hasn't even been mentioned yet. And it should be, to fully estimate the impact of AM3 in the given situation.

    DRGs have Wyverns. And they get AM3 too.

    AM3 benefits a wyvern in two ways. Directly, as he receives the multi-hit effect himself. And indirectly, via the increase in the DRG's ws frequency, causing a greater number of elemental breaths to fire.

    But... LOLwyverns.. right?

    Nope. Recall, the mob in question is not a major NM or HNM. It's a trash mob. A wyvern will have no trouble hitting it, and for decent dmg(for a pet). Breaths won't resist, and a mob like this shouldn't have breath dmg-.

    So, we're looking at a high multi-hit pet(whom I can spirit link haste/marches/minuet to. And has food via lancer body) rapid firing 400'ish dmg breaths every time the DRG WS's. Which is quite frequently, btw.

    The dps gain from this, would not be miniscule, I feel. Sadly, I have neither the means nor the skill to actually calculate the dps of an AM3, Ryunohige, DRG's wyvern.

    So.

    DRG: 953 +???(wyvern) dps.

    Oh.. Right. DRG w/meditate:965
    Hmm, and I never added angon, but whatever.

    EDIT: Found a mistake. Had march bonus set to 4 instead of 5. Rechecked and corrected dps values.

  4. #24

    I won't be answering because 1) his AM3 implementation is new so susceptible to have bugs still, and 2) crit pdif didn't cap at 3.0 for 2 handed DD so far on WS so it's quite a big deal 3) mine is still susceptible to have bugs though I tend to compare both spreadsheet value and my values and they are nearly identical for normal use (out of am3, mnk, pup at least). When I find a difference I dig in my code and his code to find the issues and that's how I found that he is overestimating Ukko's war by a substancial amount for instance - it's probably the case for all 2handed DDs using crit WS on which DRG mythic heavily relies.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pchan View Post
    I won't be answering because 1) his AM3 implementation is new to susceptible to have bugs still, and 2) crit pdif didn't cap at 3.0 for 2 handed DD so far on WS so it's quite a big deal 3) mine is still susceptible to have bugs though I tend to compare both spreadsheet value and my values and they are nearly identical for normal use (out of am3, mnk, pup at least). When I find a difference I dig in my code and his code to find the issues and that's how I found that he is overestimating Ukko's war by a substancial amount for instance.
    1) Certainly, there may be bugs in the AM3 workings. I was kinda hoping you'd investigate.
    2) He already corrected that issue, and I downloaded the new version and used that for my comparisons(I also stated this in my post)
    Quote Originally Posted by Motenten View Post
    Edit : yes melee crit ratio is capped at 3, but not ws it seems.
    Ah, yeah. Mistake. Fixed for drg, will fix on others as I get to them.
    3) Well, I appear to have a difference for you to look into, should you wish to do so.

  6. #26

    I corrected the fstr bugs. Also the total str calculation were especially on WS, and a slight bug in drakesbane too was found. So right now I have DRG at 762 dps.

  7. #27
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    I found a mistake I made in the settings for my comparisons. I had march bonus set to +4 instead of +5. Resulting in very slightly uncapped magic haste. Going to recheck and edit in corrected dps values.

    btw, the dps for the set you're using for drg, w/o jumps/meditate, comes out to 762 now. That matches your new drg value rather neatly, doesn't it?

    Edit: Values in other post now corrected

  8. #28

    If you cap attack somehow you can probably beat war during restraint. Motententen's SS give similar output to mine, it's not surprising even though I don't understand what he uses for oa2/3 values. Another difference is that I use exact pdif values while he uses cratio which in theory favors a bit crit at capped ratio.

  9. #29
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    Well, I'm certainly not capping atk in this scenario. Even using my ideal sets I'm 149 atk short in tp gear, and 198 short for drakes. Assuming I'm reading the data page right anyway.

    I'd need a COR to cap atk, even on a weak mob like this. If I get a decent chaos roll(+25%), then I cap both ws and tp. Pushes DPS up to 1035 using ideal sets and jumps. The original setup caps TP, but not ws, and moves up to 878 dps.

    This is why I'm glad I get 3 minuets and chaos roll in all my zerg events. Gives me a fighting chance to compete with other high-end DD.

  10. #30

    For drg lovers I have relic at 492 dps which mean the idiots that designed DRG need to stop doing video games. Probably less than a vere pup.

  11. #31
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    So, time for SE to buff DRG? XD

    Is that using stardiver? Using the original gearsets + 99 Gungnir and Stardiver I'm getting 491.898. Mind you, that's before adding ODD.

    99Gungnir
    Original gearset
    Stardiver+ODD(20%) 531

    Changing gears sets to What looked Ideal on short notice:
    Spoiler: show

    TP
    Rose Grip
    Hagneia Stone
    Phorcys
    Ganesha
    Brutal
    Ghillie +1
    Lancer +2
    Lancer +2
    Rajas
    Tyrant
    Atheling
    Phos Belt +1
    Phorcys
    Huginn Aug

    WS(Stardiver)
    Thew Bomblet
    Mekira-oto +1
    Gorget
    Brutal
    Moonshade AttTP
    Phorcys
    Phorcys
    Rajas
    Strigoi
    Atheling
    Ele.Belt
    Huginn Aug
    Hecatomb +1(Aug: STR+4 Skill+3)

    New DPS: 572

    Adding Jumps
    Sets:
    Spoiler: show

    Spirit
    Hagneia Stone
    Sceamol Band
    Ganesha
    Brutal
    Ghillie +1
    Lancer +2
    Ogier
    Rajas
    Tyrant
    Atheling
    Windbuffet
    Lancer +2
    Lancer +2

    Soul
    Hagneia Stone
    Sceamol Band
    Ganesha
    Brutal
    Aesir
    Lancer +2
    Ogier
    Rajas
    Tyrant
    Atheling
    Windbuffet
    Lancer +2
    Huginn Aug

    Post Jumps: 607 dps.

    Hmm, even after optimizing gear and adding jumps, kinda meh. Poor Gungnir.

    Adding Chaos roll: 655.
    And that does cap atk.

    Kinda sucks that it seems to take the best/hardest to get possible DRG weapon just to be competitive with other high end DD.

  12. #32
    An exploitable mess of a card game
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    Do Herja!

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    Do Herja!
    Herja's using the same gear as the final gungnir sets, cept I changed rose strap to dublus. With jumps.

    Herja's: 580 dps

    There may be some further possible changes to sets, but I dunno what would be any better. (Without dublus grip, it'd be 576 with pole, or 570 with rose)

  14. #34

    I used drakesbane but I probably should have done stardiver.

  15. #35
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    Ignoring the fact that it's DRG for a moment, Gungnir seems like a complete waste of time if you have access to Odin V2. Even on harder content, DRG's accuracy is the least of its concerns, so the extra 30 acc doesn't seem terribly beneficial.

  16. #36
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    Problem is SE intentionally made DRG's damage weaker than other DDs since it has a pet(which on weaker content, hits for 100-120ish with 350 damage breaths) but on harder content hits for 30-50ish with 100 damage breaths. The concept of DRG probably had it so that DRG's weapon skills and normal hits were weaker than a Warrior or Dark knight's due to no berserk or last resort but the wyverns auto attacks were meant to compensate(they have about 280 delay so they roughly hit twice between one of our swings) and the 300ish damage on breaths were supposed to indirectly increase our WS damage. I think SE wrongly overestimated the Wyvern's contribution to DRG's damage and figured if you add the Wyvern's DPS with the DRG's it would be competitive. On lower content this is entirely true(in NNI my wyvern was hitting for 120ish a hit) but not the case due to pet attack and level correction as well as mobs having ridiculous Breath damage taken% on higher content.

  17. #37
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    This is what my wyvern manages in Mul. From a 6 mul parse. And this is with spirit linking frequently to buff.

    Code:
    Damage Summary
    Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg   Absorbed Dmg
    Lumiere                  24662     0.46 %       18908           0        5754           0           0          0              0
    
    Melee Damage
    Player            Melee Dmg  Abs'd.Dmg   Net Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss    M.HR %   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi  M+0.Avg  M-0.Avg
    Lumiere               18908          0     18908   76.67 %     278/85   76.58 %   77.13 %     0/129    67.09    67.84
    
    Ability Damage
    Player                  Abil. Dmg  Abs'd.Dmg   Net Dmg    Abil. %  Hit/Miss    A.Acc %    A.Low/Hi    A.Avg
    Lumiere                      5754          0      5754    23.33 %     252/0   100.00 %       0/383    22.83
     - Flame Breath              3227          0      3227    56.08 %     113/0   100.00 %       0/383    28.56
     - Frost Breath              1536          0      1536    26.69 %      95/0   100.00 %       1/127    16.17
     - Lightning Breath           991          0       991    17.22 %      44/0   100.00 %       4/149    22.52
    Average breath dmg... 22. I'd get more outta the lil bastard if he'd shut his mouth and melee. The long JA delay on breaths kill his melee dps. And the breaths do crap.

    Whatever SE may have originally intended for the wyvern to do dmg wise.. he ain't doing a damn thing in endgame content. The only reason anyone bothers to keep the thing out and alive is for spirit/soul jump enhancements and the occasional restoring breath.

  18. #38
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    SE's response would be "Merit Strafe lol"

    But seriously you know shit is bad when 22,000 damage is less than 0.5% of total damage. On paper that sounds like a lot of damage over time but in reality it's nothing. If you multiplied that damage by 10x it still would be pretty meh.


    ==Edit==

    Didn't realize you wrote 6 Mul's...damn nevermind ._.

  19. #39

    This is why my goon is retired =(

  20. #40

    Conqueror, king's fury
    gear
    Spoiler: show

    //TP
    gearset[0]="conqueror 99 am3";gearset[1]="white";
    gearset[2]="phorcys";gearset[3]="rancor";gearset[4]="brutal";gearset[5]="ravager";
    gearset[6]="adaman";gearset[7]="ravager +2";gearset[8]="rajas";gearset[9]="pyrosoul";
    gearset[10]="atheling";gearset[11]="phos";gearset[12]="ravager +2";gearset[13]="ravager +2";

    // WS
    wstype="kingsjustice";
    wsset[0]="conqueror 99 am3";wsset[1]="ravager";
    wsset[2]="mekira-oto";wsset[3]="gorget";wsset[4]="brutal";wsset[5]="moonshade att/tpbonus";
    wsset[6]="phorcys";wsset[7]="ravager +2";wsset[8]="rajas";wsset[9]="pyrosoul";
    wsset[10]="atheling";wsset[11]="windbuffet";wsset[12]="warrior +2";wsset[13]="gigantes";


    750 DPS

    Spoiler: show

    global dps : 750.424495
    acc average : 0.950104
    wsacc average : 0.949909
    critical rate -melee : 0.300125
    critical rate -ws : 0.000000
    critical rate -global : 0.174594
    melee ratio : 0.431105
    melee dmg p/s : 323.511863
    WSdmg p/s : 426.912633
    round per WS avg : 3.226921
    avg Ws dmg : 3339.988237
    avg punch incl. KA and DA : 456.226676
    ws att avg : 1308.552500
    avg hits per round : 1.719202