Mythic de-mythification

**Brutala** · 2012-09-09 06:34

Angon/wyvern aside, both Pchan and Martel are being unfair to MNK in a way other than not including the number of counters per second MNK would need to catch up to DRG and a realistic number of counters (note I do agree MNK does lose and counters aren't very important).

Pchan listed mustela for TP when he probably meant nomkahpa, causing the DPS he quotes from Motenten's sheet to be a LOT higher than what Martel was getting on it, Martel overlooked this, and both of them used inferior gear for the 21 level correction scenario in the relic/mythic thread.

Originally Posted by pchan

Also for reference a good DD with those buff (like MNK/WAR with vere 99,impetus, and good gear) is doing 700+ DPS (can be verified with motenten's spreadsheets, 725 for monk for instance).

MNK reference
//TP
Verethragna 99 x x Hagneia Stone
thaumas, Rancor, Max Brutal, Jupiter Pearl
Thaumas, Mustela, Oneiros, Epona
Atheling,Black,Tantra +2,Thaumas
//WS
Verethragna 99,Tantra Tathlum
Thaumas,Rancor Max,Brutal,Vulcan Pearl
Tantra +2,Heafoc,Rajas,Epona
Atheling,Wanion,Thaumas,Kacura +1

Following all of Pchan's OP word for word Motenten's sheet gives 679.7 DPS. But wait, that TP setup is only 223/256 gear haste, 114.1 delay when capped with MA would be 106.2. Using Nomkahpa hands instead that's fixed and Ddex is still 3 over cap so that jupiter might as well have 1 dex. DPS is now the quoted 725(.5), but it's still inferior (in Motenten sheet) to WSing in pyrosoul instead of rajas and moonshade instead of vulcan, which would give 731.2 DPS.

Level correction.

Originally Posted by Pchan

Using the same stats as the comparison of the mythic thread but 21 level correction ;
vere : 283 DPS
ryu : 274 DPS

Originally Posted by Martel

For the same comparison I'm getting;

MNK: 324
DRG: 590(w/ angon 650. w/o 530)

Odd that my MNK dps came out higher than yours this time, when it was substantially lower in the lvl0 no atk buffs sim.

changing the mob to lv120
Pchan's listed set with no changes: 329DPS 87.5% tp hit rate, 91% ws hit rate
same set with just gloves in tp set to nomkhapa: 343DPS 86% tp, 90% ws
set with my 3 changes above: 345DPS 86%DPS tp, 89% ws

Now for a set that actually makes some sense on a mob with an extra 84 eva.
Nomkahpa>tantra+2 and jupiter>hollow in TP
heafoc > myrmex in WS
That's 423 DPS, just barely capped both hit rate and ddex in tp and ws.

Not all of these are close to the quoted 283 or 324. What exactly did you guys do for MNK? Seems especially amazing that for DRG one of you got 274, the other 650 and 530. I didn't check the DRG sheet yet, but I'd bet Pchan has DRG lower than it should be because of non capped hit rate in his simulation, on top of cruddy no-angon ratio.

I come in expecting that someone is properly going about shitting on mythics by quantifying things like legion pull times vs locking/not locking buffs, embrava/adloq ticks, and the huge SAM and DRG JA advantages for getting AM3 up over each job in situations that might actually exist... and I find the smartest players forgetting glove names and neglecting delay reduction caps and hit rates.

Edit: checked DRG sheets and fixed some values. Turns out Martel didn't fully cap acc on DRG either. His listed set in the relic thread has uncapped WS acc on level 120 mob. The 530 without angon should be 552 just by WSing in AF3+2 hands, and that still isn't fully capped.

**pchan** · 2012-09-09 07:01

The dps I listed on the relic thread doesn't consider accuracy for either drg and mnk, and yes the gear in the op is not capped haste, it should be nomkahpa instead of mustela. I'm going to clarify and use a "good" though not "best" gear

Spoiler: show

is 720 dps.

As for counter I didn't bother including wyvern and other crap for drg so it's just fair. Counter generally amounts for 6-7% of total damage with a mob that has 4 seconds delay. Also for a second reference, ukko war with this gear

Spoiler: show

is also at 730 dps (exluding specific JA such as restraint and blood rage).

Also on the things of todo list, neither my calculation nor motenten's include the damage from the initial WS (which can also be different than the ws used for the next 1'30 minutes), so technically the DPS will notably increase.

**pchan** · 2012-09-09 10:45

Kogarasumaru + tachi : rana
I'm counting overwhelm but not meditate obviously
Also accounting for ikkishoten and hasso zanshin.

Spoiler: show

756 DPS.

Spoiler: show

With tachi : shoha instead
same gear

799 dps

Spoiler: show

Need to double check the shoha calculation because I'm finding different value than motenten though.

**mdkuser** · 2012-09-10 07:18

Originally Posted by Brutala

Using Nomkahpa hands instead that's fixed and Ddex is still 3 over cap so that jupiter might as well have 1 dex. DPS is now the quoted 725(.5), but it's still inferior (in Motenten sheet) to WSing in pyrosoul instead of rajas and moonshade instead of vulcan, which would give 731.2 DPS.

it was a typo ( nomkhapa oviously). And rajas is better than pyrosoul on most set ups: pyrosoul increrases ws damage but rajas adds +0.4 tp on WS return on average which increases WS freq. The set up he gives is "base line" not optimized, the purpose is to math mythic, not empies. For his set up there are several improivements, like: tantra earring (since attack is capped and he chose moonshade: TP bonus for ws), khepri legs + max shura kabuto on ws etc. doesn't change dps much.( 720 ~730).

**EjinCaitsith** · 2012-09-10 07:43

Originally Posted by pchan

//TP
gearset[0]="kogarasumaru am3";gearset[1]="hagneia";
gearset[2]="unkai +2";gearset[3]="unkai";gearset[4]="brutal";gearset[5]="moonshade att/reg";
gearset[6]="unkai +2";gearset[7]="brego";gearset[8]="rajas";gearset[9]="tyrant";
gearset[10]="misuuchi";gearset[11]="phos";gearset[12]="unkai +2";gearset[13]="ace";

// WS
wsset[0]="kogarasumaru am3";wsset[1]="thew bomblet";
wsset[2]="mekira-oto";wsset[3]="gorget";wsset[4]="brutal";wsset[5]="vulcan";
wsset[6]="phorcys";wsset[7]="heafoc";wsset[8]="rajas";wsset[9]="pyrosoul";
wsset[10]="atheling";wsset[11]="elemental";wsset[12]="unkai +2";wsset[13]="saotome +2";

What's the point of all these comparisons if you're going to get the gear so mindbogglingly wrong for every job but MNK.

**pchan** · 2012-09-10 08:31

Stop being an idiot and give constructive feedback.

**LidenbokValour** · 2012-09-10 08:40

My constructive feed back is those SAM builds are terrible.

Interesting to see all this being done though, props to that.

Any chance of Tizona?

**EjinCaitsith** · 2012-09-10 08:57

My feedback: Stop posting results for jobs using moronic gear sets and conditions. Ask before you post DPS numbers when you have no clue how the job gears.

I like the premise of the thread, but your biased to somehow prove MNK is at the top is inane.

**ccl** · 2012-09-10 09:07

For sam optimal (or close to optima didn't look much into koga set) would be something like:

TP(am3 up)

Spoiler: show

Shoha with am3 up

Spoiler: show

with the condition you set in your OP this gave me, with motenten spreadsheet, 860 dps with AM3 up.(account for hasso/zerk/rcb/aggressor/march*2/min*2/boost str) no roll, didn't account for meditate.
888 with meditate.

EDIT: new dps number: 900 dps w/o meditate and 933 with meditate with the same gear on a clean spreadsheet.

**EjinCaitsith** · 2012-09-10 10:40

Based on the mob stats, I'd guess this is for ADL farming, in which case SAM also gets a 17% damage boost from Warding circle for everything but DL/ADL, which lasts for 4min30sec on a 5min recast.

**pchan** · 2012-09-10 11:06

Originally Posted by ccl

For sam optimal (or close to optima didn't look much into koga set) would be something like:

TP(am3 up)

Spoiler: show

Shoha with am3 up

Spoiler: show

with the condition you set in your OP this gave me, with motenten spreadsheet, 860 dps with AM3 up.(account for hasso/zerk/rcb/aggressor/march*2/min*2/boost str) no roll, didn't account for meditate.
888 with meditate.

Thanks for the input, apparently I'm guilty for using a gear that is 5% below optimal gear.

**ccl** · 2012-09-10 11:46

Actually I re-did it on a just download one and I got 900 dps w/o meditate and 933 with meditate with the same gear.

Anyway, how easy would it be to do the same rng mythic/relic ? Think you could math/make a rng one ? I wonder how it would compare to well geared dd since delayp update ect.

**pchan** · 2012-09-10 18:12

I am only doing melees. But anyway, considering the dps of koga 99 SAM, it's not beatable and it's also the only job where maintaining AM3 is possible.

**pchan** · 2012-09-10 18:33

Originally Posted by ccl

** gear suggestion including legion ***

with the condition you set in your OP this gave me, with motenten spreadsheet, 860 dps with AM3 up.(account for hasso/zerk/rcb/aggressor/march*2/min*2/boost str) no roll, didn't account for meditate.
888 with meditate.

Ok so I made it a point not to include legion gear to have a realistic comparison so I'm now using this better gear which is a a slight side grade :

Spoiler: show

Now getting 868 DPS same buff as the OP (boost dex not str)

Spoiler: show

**diasetsu** · 2012-09-10 19:00

Originally Posted by pchan

I am only doing melees. But anyway, considering the dps of koga 99 SAM, it's not beatable and it's also the only job where maintaining AM3 is possible.

Is this due to 180TP meditate?

**Dotsudoku** · 2012-09-10 19:05

Timed usage of jumps and meditate should match or exceed that, if that's his reasoning.

**pchan** · 2012-09-10 19:35

Care to explain how you'll get 300 TP faster than SAM ?

**diasetsu** · 2012-09-10 19:39

That is why I am curious, I think people forget that Meditate is not instant TP. Unless I'm missing something 180TP mediate takes 9ticks or 27secs. DRG w/ wyvern alive actually gets to 300tp faster than SAM, not sure on time difference when wyvern is dead.

If meditate is 20/tick, Koga SAM gets 72TP/tick melee@5hit build, 1.8hits/rnd, 90TP/tick melee@ 4hit build??
5hit= 92TP/tick= 587delay+120delay(meditate)=707delay??
4hit= 110TP/tick= 491+120= 611delay??

Numbers assume 0TP with 20TP and 25TP/hit. They won't be perfect numbers because I just speedballed it, so if someone notices I'm badly off on something please correct me.

With wyvern alive if Ryu DRG gets 1.71hits/rnd, then between their 2 jumps thats 1.71*20TP(don't know exact, just assuming 5hit=20TP)*5=171TP with JA delay of 180secs, no one can compete with that TP gain pchan. The remaining 129TP takes 395delay(not using meditate) for a total 575delay??

Med>jump>jump>melee would be 3ticks of med so 207TP @ 4secs JA delay= 240delay
93TP remaining= 285delay= 525delay total???

**Nightfyre** · 2012-09-10 20:24

Originally Posted by mdkuser

The set up he gives is "base line" not optimized, the purpose is to math mythic

Do I really need to point out the contradiction in mathing weapons costing half a billion gil with "baseline" sets?

Originally Posted by LidenbokValour

Any chance of Tizona?

I've got one done somewhere, I'll try and remember to post it here or in the BLU thread. Best I recall it didn't come out very far ahead even assuming no level correction, starting with 300 TP and disregarding rebuild time, and capped everything (to favor Requiescat).

EDIT: For clarity's sake, it did come out decently ahead in that comparison even with Almace getting AM3 as well. It's moreso that factors like reduced Ratio, increased monster AGI, and AM3 rebuild time will significantly impact Tizona's output.

**Martel** · 2012-09-10 20:42

Originally Posted by diasetsu

With wyvern alive if Ryu DRG gets 1.71hits/rnd, then between their 2 jumps thats 1.71*20TP(don't know exact, just assuming 5hit=20TP)*5=171TP with JA delay of 180secs, no one can compete with that TP gain pchan. The remaining 129TP takes 395delay(not using meditate) for a total 575delay??

Med>jump>jump>melee would be 3ticks of med so 207TP @ 4secs JA delay= 240delay
93TP remaining= 285delay= 525delay total???

Add 5 TP to the total. Lancer +2 feet, spirit jump TP bonus. Too bad it only works on the first hit.

Also, my jump sets are showing 1.812 hits/rnd in the spreadsheet(AM3+Mala+windbuffet+brutal). So, 181.2+5 for 186.2 TP, I think.

Thread: Mythic de-mythification

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