The Ashita Project goes live!

[FNH]

I didn't see anything that answered why there can't be a simple zip file to download(with everything I need in one easy package). From a business perspective, if you want to "sell" something it needs to be easy to obtain. Especially if the competing product is easy to get. The general public is extremely lazy and if you really want

we plan to make Ashita one of the programs you come to for a rich gaming experience.

I'd recommend looking into a better distribution method. As it is now, the svn? seems alienating to the casual player who isn't into tech stuff and might be put off from trying to figure out which links they need to get everything. Also when the .exe flags their AV they don't know how to use. Just my 2 cents, but I think you could benefit from better merchandising.

[atom0s]

I didn't see anything that answered why there can't be a simple zip file to download(with everything I need in one easy package).

That would sound more like you are looking for something you want to read and not what is actually there. We use an SVN release system because of how our development is. We are not a laid back, updates will come in a full release two weeks from now, type team. We fix things nearly instantly as they are reported and we want people to be able to access that fix immediately. Not wait for a new release package after a set amount of bugs pile up. Using an SVN allows us to easily push these updates to our users.

From a business perspective, if you want to "sell" something it needs to be easy to obtain. Especially if the competing product is easy to get.

Again, we are NOT competing with Windower, this has been said 3-4 times now already in this topic. We are offering an alternative for players to use. We are also not a business. We are a team of friends that are making a public project as a hobby. There is no business aspect about it. It is something we enjoy doing, for free.

The general public is extremely lazy and if you really want
I'd recommend looking into a better distribution method.

As it is now, the svn? seems alienating to the casual player who isn't into tech stuff and might be put off from trying to figure out which links they need to get everything.

We have a wide range of testers, users, and enthusiasts that have been with the project from the start and up to the recent change to the svn system. None of them have had any problems with it and a large portion of them had no idea what SVN was either. It is not a hard system to grasp and we have an updater that can be used in-place of a real SVN client, so I see no hard problems obtaining the data.

We have yet to have a single person report or complain about not being able to get the project and test it out. So the casual public seems to be handling their own just fine.

Also when the .exe flags their AV they don't know how to use. Just my 2 cents, but I think you could benefit from better merchandising.

Not a single report has been given about any of our files flagging their AV either.



Simply put, we are not Windower. We are not a competing project. We are our own team and we have our own methods of doing things.

[Uselessaccount2]

Just started using Ashita and tried to run "runner" but came up with a message saying it uses Interface version 1.37, and I'm using 1.38. I assume all I have to do is wait for the update to the extension?

[Clinpachi]

I started using Ashita today mainly from the curiosity of this post, but the ability to not crash from dual box log glitches were a huge factor as well. I have to honestly say that my first impressions are quite good. While a fully functioning spellcast system is probably the deal breaker for most people (Until LuaCast is able to handle the role 100% and beyond), I feel that the long term capabilities of your project go well beyond anything yet seen from an extension(Plugin) point of view. The only downside I can see is that the advanced functions previously unseen on windower (such as Runner) would further people screaming bloody murder at the simplicity of things such as Tparty. Many do not consider the use of Windower a form of cheating or a major third party breaker, but Ashita and it's capability could be viewed very differently.

Things I enjoy the most is the little enhancements such as being able to change the font/positioning/color of plugin data such as Distance. Instead of being stuck with the white 0.0 in the top right corner, we have the ability to move and customize. While you can do that with only specific plugins on windower you appear able to add a touch of more customization to popular functions. Obviously as stated several times it's indeed not a competition versus windower but I can honestly say that a lot of windower functions and thoughts were carried over and improved on from the start. Considering windower is starting to show its age and the amount of plugin support or updates is reaching a snail pace, it's truly nice to see a project like this flourish and show great promise in several aspects.

My only concern is about Guildwork and the Guildwork plugin functions coming to Ashita. I don't know if your team or Stanislav would develop it or even be interested, but as time goes on the official LSC is near useless and never updated. The partnership between Guildwork and FFXIAH is exceedingly great for several reasons and I hope Ashita is able to figure something out with Guildwork as well.

I'm blessed enough to be extraordinarily tech savvy so I wanted to say I completely understand/appreciate the use of SVN or even the updater as well as the bug tracking system your team has in place. Hopefully more people will become less irritable and give something new a chance with the system set in place, instead of complaining about things such as not using Git/Github ect. The amount of work and testing I'm sure has been arduous and painstakingly extensive so I just wanted to give my few thoughts and concerns, but I mostly wanted to say you guys are doing a great job and that I look forward to using Ashita now and in the future.

--Calnus of Siren (Formerly Clinpachi)

[atom0s]

Just started using Ashita and tried to run "runner" but came up with a message saying it uses Interface version 1.37, and I'm using 1.38. I assume all I have to do is wait for the update to the extension?

Yes, h1pp0 is the author of Runner so he'll need to update it to reflect yesterdays update to Ashita. He should get around to it sometime today.

I started using Ashita today mainly from the curiosity of this post, but the ability to not crash from dual box log glitches were a huge factor as well. I have to honestly say that my first impressions are quite good. While a fully functioning spellcast system is probably the deal breaker for most people (Until LuaCast is able to handle the role 100% and beyond), I feel that the long term capabilities of your project go well beyond anything yet seen from an extension(Plugin) point of view. The only downside I can see is that the advanced functions previously unseen on windower (such as Runner) would further people screaming bloody murder at the simplicity of things such as Tparty. Many do not consider the use of Windower a form of cheating or a major third party breaker, but Ashita and it's capability could be viewed very differently.

I think this is very true outlook on things currently and from the past, however people are unaware of all the things Windower does and has done behind the scenes with cheating. They're not the anti-cheating, picture perfect tool everyone knows and loves. I'm not saying this out of hate or trying to defame their project, but it is one of the sadder things to see the enforcement of non-cheating tools on their forums while their developers (past and present) all used Windowers plugin interface to their own advantages.

Instead of keeping things like this private, Ashita allows anyone to develop anything they want with the SDK being public. There is no reason to put on a fake mask and pretend to be something that we're not and try to control what people can/can't do when what is being done is already breaking the third-party tool rule by the game itself.

Things I enjoy the most is the little enhancements such as being able to change the font/positioning/color of plugin data such as Distance. Instead of being stuck with the white 0.0 in the top right corner, we have the ability to move and customize. While you can do that with only specific plugins on windower you appear able to add a touch of more customization to popular functions. Obviously as stated several times it's indeed not a competition versus windower but I can honestly say that a lot of windower functions and thoughts were carried over and improved on from the start. Considering windower is starting to show its age and the amount of plugin support or updates is reaching a snail pace, it's truly nice to see a project like this flourish and show great promise in several aspects.

The core of Ashita was always the main focus. Extensions are second. The jist is to fix the minor problems of the game and allow players to enjoy it with less of a hassle. Meaning the fixing of dualboxing, better controller support, and such. Then Extensions come into play. The collection of extensions that Ashita comes shipped with along with whats currently made are entirely out of request. We did not look at any of the extensions and say "Well Windower has it so we need it too.", each extension was purely on a request basis. Someone would ask in our IRC channel, "Hey any plans to make 'x' extension for Ashita? I really miss not having it" type thing. And from there we would make it. Then it would lead into, "Hey can you make it so I can do 'x' to this?" such as the font/position customization and so on.

Our project is not here to compete and is simply for an alternative choice.
The plugins people have come to love from one project will sooner or later be recreated in another because it has basically become a standard feature to them regardless of the context of the project. People want what they have had for so long.

My only concern is about Guildwork and the Guildwork plugin functions coming to Ashita. I don't know if your team or Stanislav would develop it or even be interested, but as time goes on the official LSC is near useless and never updated. The partnership between Guildwork and FFXIAH is exceedingly great for several reasons and I hope Ashita is able to figure something out with Guildwork as well.

Guildwork is entirely up to Stainslav and his team if they wish to allow us access to their API and client. We have nothing against them and what they do and wouldn't mind building a Guildwork plugin for Ashita if they wish us to. At this time neither of us has approached the other but this is another requested extension already from a handful of people. When things are more stable and settled down perhaps we'll seek out to contact them and see what will happen from there.

I'm blessed enough to be extraordinarily tech savvy so I wanted to say I completely understand/appreciate the use of SVN or even the updater as well as the bug tracking system your team has in place. Hopefully more people will become less irritable and give something new a chance with the system set in place, instead of complaining about things such as not using Git/Github ect. The amount of work and testing I'm sure has been arduous and painstakingly extensive so I just wanted to give my few thoughts and concerns, but I mostly wanted to say you guys are doing a great job and that I look forward to using Ashita now and in the future.

I have no issues with people stating their opinions about how we do things, and I do understand that most are used to one way of doing something.
But one of the issues seems to be people think we are the same thing as Windower, or we are competing which we aren't, in either aspect.

Our methods of handling things are in place because it is what we feel is best for our project. I think once people, if they do give the project a chance, will fit into things and accept them in due time. So far the 20+ people we have using Ashita daily are all happy with how things are being done and we haven't had any real complaints so far.

Thanks for the kind words.

[Mercilessturtle]

We use an SVN release system because of how our development is. We are not a competing project. We are our own team and we have our own methods of doing things.

Using subversion for development doesn't mean you have to use it for releases. That isn't what it is meant to be used for anyways. You can use whatever VCS you want for source control and still provide actual releases. And yes, you are competing with windower. Two applications designed to do the same thing are competing products.

[Matricide]

Using subversion for development doesn't mean you have to use it for releases. That isn't what it is meant to be used for anyways. You can use whatever VCS you want for source control and still provide actual releases. And yes, you are competing with windower. Two applications designed to do the same thing are competing products.

It's not for sale and it's not a monetary project. It's a hobby, a free one, that's being shared with the public.

[Mercilessturtle]

Uh huh? What part of what I said was that supposed to be a response to? It appears to be just some random statement that has nothing to do with anything?

[Kaces]

Instead of pointing out the pitfalls of the Windower crew's code of chivalry every other question, there should willed attempts to stay neutral if that is truly what you wish of the project. Your replies have had quite the undertone of hate and competition despite what you have been saying. I suggest short and concise replies as that would suggest you really "don't care." Someone had to say it, everyone seems to be overlooking it.

[FNH]

It's not for sale and it's not a monetary project. It's a hobby, a free one, that's being shared with the public.

It being free doesn't make it any less of a product they are trying to market.

[FNH]

Again, we are NOT competing with Windower, this has been said 3-4 times now already in this topic. We are offering an alternative for players to use. We are also not a business. We are a team of friends that are making a public project as a hobby. There is no business aspect about it. It is something we enjoy doing, for free.

You may not want to be but it is a similar product, which is competition. I think you read more into what I meant by business, and I know you aren't making money off of it (now). However, any hobby worth doing is worth doing well, and if you get enjoyment out of people using it, you would probably get more enjoyment out of MORE people using it.

We have a wide range of testers, users, and enthusiasts that have been with the project from the start and up to the recent change to the svn system. None of them have had any problems with it and a large portion of them had no idea what SVN was either. It is not a hard system to grasp and we have an updater that can be used in-place of a real SVN client, so I see no hard problems obtaining the data.

We have yet to have a single person report or complain about not being able to get the project and test it out. So the casual public seems to be handling their own just fine.

Alienating your customers is a quick way to turn your project south. How many people do you think have wanted to use it and got confused and decided not to because they didn't want to or were embarrassed to ask? Many times people lose customers because there is a lack of support in ALL stages of the process. Telling someone "It is not a hard system to grasp", is the wrong way to go, writing up a full step-by-step to put in your link would be wise since the first post directs to an older post about extracting from a .rar. A good rule of thumb is to make instructions, then dumb them down, maybe twice. Btw getting defensive over constructive criticism is ignorant. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm giving you some observations and tips that you might not get elsewhere; that could help with this program or one in the future since you seem to think business, marketing, and customer service have no relation to your programming.

Not a single report has been given about any of our files flagging their AV either.

Here is your first one then, Avast flagged it as a precaution due to the rarity and newness of the file.

Again, be less defensive. If you weren't looking for feedback, what are you here for?

[atom0s]

Using subversion for development doesn't mean you have to use it for releases. That isn't what it is meant to be used for anyways. You can use whatever VCS you want for source control and still provide actual releases. And yes, you are competing with windower. Two applications designed to do the same thing are competing products.

I never said we did or didn't have to use it. It is what we chose to use because of how we wish to handle releasing updates.
There is nothing stated in any standard that says SVN (or any VCS) is specific to source code and not binaries either.

For our project it has been working fine and until now we have had no issues or real complaints about it.

Instead of pointing out the pitfalls of the Windower crew's code of chivalry every other question, there should willed attempts to stay neutral if that is truly what you wish of the project. Your replies have had quite the undertone of hate and competition despite what you have been saying. I suggest short and concise replies as that would suggest you really "don't care." Someone had to say it, everyone seems to be overlooking it.

I've only mentioned a "downside" to Windower once in this topic which was my most recent post. The context of the post was in relation to something that was said.
I'm not really seeing how this is "every other question".

and I know you aren't making money off of it (now).

Implying that we ever will? Ashita is free, and will always be free.

Alienating your customers is a quick way to turn your project south. How many people do you think have wanted to use it and got confused and decided not to because they didn't want to or were embarrassed to ask? Many times people lose customers because there is a lack of support in ALL stages of the process.

Given that we haven't had close to anyone besides you have a problem with things are being done I'd say the number is minimal or non-existent.

Telling someone "It is not a hard system to grasp", is the wrong way to go, writing up a full step-by-step to put in your link would be wise since the first post directs to an older post about extracting from a .rar.

The point being in my response was we have topics that explain how to get the release.
As for the old posts mentioning the original release method when development was slow, thanks for pointing those out. They'll be removed / edited to reflect the current method(s).

A good rule of thumb is to make instructions, then dumb them down, maybe twice. Btw getting defensive over constructive criticism is ignorant. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm giving you some observations and tips that you might not get elsewhere; that could help with this program or one in the future since you seem to think business, marketing, and customer service have no relation to your programming.

I'm defending our project, not the criticism. If the criticism is a valid point, it will be heard and adjustments can be made. But given your overview of our project so far is more in a sense of a business trying to sell a product, I personally disagree with most of your points. We have a topic that explains how to get the latest version of Ashita through SVN, as well as using the beta updater we have to pull the release without installing an SVN client. I'll add it as a link in the release topics though for those that don't understand it.

Here is your first one then, Avast flagged it as a precaution due to the rarity and newness of the file.
Again, be less defensive. If you weren't looking for feedback, what are you here for?

Does the AV do anything in regards to the file(s)? (Such as auto-quarantine, just a message of warning, auto-deleted.)
What file(s) are flagged and what are they flagged as / for?


I am not trying to come off as an ass when I respond to each of these, but it seems the only issue(s) people have are the differences in how we do things.
That's kind the point of our project is to not be the same thing.

Our release system is basically here to stay until we feel there is something better suited for how we do updates. Doing a full installer / packaged release does not fit with our development cycle and production so we do not feel it will ever be something we do again. But as said above in recent replies, SVN fits our method the best, currently. Allowing us to change 1 part of an entire release without having to repackage, reship, and remake a full release is much better suited for us.

I understand that everyone is used to how Windower does their releases in a full package (or just the hook only), and I think this is why this topic has basically turned into more of a discussion on how we release than the project as a whole. It is different, yes. It is a change from what people are used to. But it is how we are doing things.

[Zirael]

Guys, chill. Someone out there is taking their time and skill to try make playing this game more enjoyable. I'm happy people will have more choices on the matter. For some Windower will work out better, for others Ashita, or even vanilla. Put your wit into thinking up how to make this or that project better

[Mercilessturtle]

Put your wit into thinking up how to make this or that project better

That's exactly what is happening, read the thread. "Here's some trivially easy things you could do to make it so way more people would be able to try your app". Just because the response is a load of butthurt, doesn't mean the suggestions didn't happen.

[Kohan]

Guys, chill. Someone out there is taking their time and skill to try make playing this game more enjoyable. I'm happy people will have more choices on the matter. For some Windower will work out better, for others Ashita, or even vanilla. Put your wit into thinking up how to make this or that project better

While I am not a full-fledged software developer myself, I am involved in a variety of other things that are related, including scripting and distribution, and some code review. I've also done assistant production/project management work on a variety of software titles from a number of companies. Before that, I made a living researching the nuances of the video game industry, and coming to fully understand everything from high level conceptualization to product delivery.

Why did I give you my life story in response to this post? Well, you're advising the normal posters to "chill," and while they're being rather blunt, I disagree that they're acting inappropriately. Additionally, as someone who has worked alongside designers, developers, and all of their related kin, I have to say that I agree with them completely. I mentioned this in brief to atom0s a few days ago in BG Chat, and I suppose a variation of it bears repeating here.

It doesn't matter that this product is not literally being sold. It doesn't matter if you want to claim you're not competing with Windower, as you are. Stating that you aren't comes across as putting your head in the sand, as well as disingenuous, since—as someone stated—a product that supplies similar functionality and can or must be used in place of the other is a competing product, period. You can say that this is not true until you're blue in the face, but that will always be incorrect. You are a developer in your day-to-day job, are you not? If whatever company you worked for released software that replicated/mirrored another program's functionality, either entirely or in part, and did not work in tandem, you would be competing with the software originally released. That's how it works, and that holds true whether you're making money or not.

Additionally, competition leads to inspiration, whereas a lack of variety leads to stifling. There's nothing criminal nor particularly drama-inducing about stating, "we're competing for expanding users' third party options in the FFXI community." If you believe that's dramatic, I would wonder why. It's simply doing business. If the Windower community feels intimidated, the appropriate response would be to enhance their product appropriately. They, like you, do not and should not have a monopoly on the options available to users. You've said that you want to open up more options, and that's wonderful. It's why I'm so excited about this project.

Just as well, dismissing users' concerns regarding accessibility isn't smart end user treatment. It's all right if whatever you're doing is more convenient for you, but you are not making this for you. If the early adopters haven't had a problem with it, that's most likely due to the fact that they're interested in scripting for it, and/or are accustomed to using fledgling software. This doesn't mean that your current model will be practical for widespread adoption and usage.

These criticisms aren't inappropriate, and I don't believe they should be stymied. This is a product that is directly competing with Windower, which will ideally ultimately provide far more functionality. That's the truth. And if the users are the ones to be using it, their concerns need to be addressed.

[Vyvian]

I thought I'd throw in, I wanted to see what this was about so I downloaded the updater atom0s mentioned that doesn't require using SVN and its so simple you can use it like an installer. Download it, put it in a folder where you want the program to end up, run it, and choose "Update all files" and everything is downloaded for you. Then you just set the config file and run it.

After the update I ran the updater again and it showed me every file that was out of date, and I hit Update all files again and the old ones were replaced.

[Mojo]

The idea of using an SVN is, imo, superior and simpler than other methods. I think the best solution at this point would be to make some minor changes to the updater atom0s wrote (i.e., turn it into an application launcher and enforce updates before proceeding.) Right now it's still easy to use. You download the updater and click update and the entire application is downloaded to that folder. Could even expand it a bit to handle member extensions downloading.

[atom0s]

The idea of using an SVN is, imo, superior and simpler than other methods. I think the best solution at this point would be to make some minor changes to the updater atom0s wrote (i.e., turn it into an application launcher and enforce updates before proceeding.) Right now it's still easy to use. You download the updater and click update and the entire application is downloaded to that folder. Could even expand it a bit to handle member extensions downloading.

The loader is something we plan on recoding to include the updater.
But it wont be mandatory to update if that becomes the case.

As per-requested, you can now read a detailed install guide here:
http://www.ffevo.net/wiki/index.php/Installing_Ashita

And an FAQ here:
http://www.ffevo.net/wiki/index.php/Ashita_FAQ

[Dew]

Is there an extension similar to StatusTimer?

[Uselessaccount2]

I would love it if there was something similar to IME (that let's you type in Japanese) that windower uses.