2013 America (and Friends!) Gun Violence Thread No Plows Allowed!

[Mertron]

really? no one? makes me sad.

QUIT SPAWN CAMPING

[zoobernut]

You're going to have to elaborate.

Ugh if you can't even see the difference between your two posts that you wrote I really don't want to try to spoon feed you an explanation but I guess I will do my best.

Your initial argument is that the woman resorted to excessive force that was unnecessary and you felt sympathy for the burglar because he might have just been someone who had no malicious intent to the occupants. Your first argument has nothing to do with whether or not it is safe to have guns in the house and focuses on the chance that the burglar was just some kid who had a tough life and needed some cash. Your later statement has nothing to do with the back story of the burglar or how you feel bad that he was shot and is instead a gun control/ownership argument about how people are more likely to hurt themselves or family members rather than an intruder.

[Niiro]

Your later statement has nothing to do with the back story of the burglar or how you feel bad that he was shot and is instead a gun control/ownership argument about how people are more likely to hurt themselves or family members rather than an intruder.

This was never my argument, only a flippant remark regarding the unlikely hypothetical put forth by someone else.

So you're saying she should have found a way out of the house with her 2 kids or she should have hunkered down in hopes that the guy wasn't carrying a weapon? She should have given a guy that was breaking into her house the benefit of the doubt? Hoped he was only there for some electronics or cash? Are you a woman by chance? If no, are you married or do you have a girlfriend or know another woman that has kids? If so, have you ever smarted off to them or tried to put your hands on them to see how their mother would react? If not, give it a shot and see how quickly unglued they become. Also, once you realize that, then try and understand a woman at home with her 2 kids and her husband, the 'natural' protector of the home, being gone and all she has to fend off a possible attacker is a gun. Maybe she has shot the gun before and she's familiar with it or maybe not.

I guess I just don't understand where you are coming from.

I don't quite understand what you're arguing. If she had a gun she should have made the threat, locked herself in a back room, and waited for help or run away.

If she didn't have a gun, she should have made the threat, locked herself in a back room, and waited for help or escaped out of a window if possible.

The only difference is in the latter scenario getting out of the house would be more important since she doesn't have the gun as a last resort if the invader is crazy enough to stick around and try to rape and kill her and her children for kicks despite the fact that the police are already coming (aside from the fact that he thought the house was empty, that's a totally reasonable reaction because that's just, like, what all criminals do man).

What she actually did do put her and her children at greater risk than the above.

[liggy 0]

there is also the possibility that, in her case, being a woman, making yourself know would be disadvantageous as a burglar some cases would hear a women's "warning" and take it seriously as you would a 17year, old 4eye'd, 85, 5'3, honors student telling a bully he knows more karate than Chuck Norris to stop taking his lunch money.

Leading to various scenarios...

1. Burglars gets scurd and runs
2. realizes he has less time and does a quick smash and grab based on how long he things he has until the cops show and how far away this supposed woman with a gun is..(upstairs in a far off bedroom, ill just take the TV/laptop/someone worth money near the door or window i broke into. and book it)
3. calls her bluff about the gun but agrees he has little time before cops show.. if hes desperate grabs a weapon from around the house (knife, bat, poker from the fire place) and searches for the woman to make her show him quicker where the loot is or gets a quicky himself.
4. has accomplices search out woman while he does smash n grab or vise-versa (armed or not)


vs

1. guy things no one is home, snoops around, gets ambush
2. guy with accomplices.. guy gets shot from ambush accomplices run.
3. shoot out.
4. guy gets shit n leaves without stumbling on the woman

yes, there's some bias there, but i think there's some truth too.

regardless of intentions, wanting a few bucks to looking to cut up and rape some bodies is irrelevant.

If someone is desperate for a few bucks hearing a frantic warning from women or not in the house, all bets are off if he thinks he can beat the clock, esp if its an area with slow police repose. Desperation and the illusion of any kinda of advantage over someone or gain (bonus rape) or having a bitch lead you to the good loot saving him minutes of rummaging. i'll take camping out, tooooo many Ifs involved on if a suspect will run away, who hes with, motives and how desperate/prepared he is to chance not being able to one up him.

in this story he's lucky the cops were called before he got shot.

a "self righteous person" would just shot the burglar, burn him and have a beer.

[Byrthnoth]

But what if he had been a bath salt zombie in search of delicious faces that could take 6 shots and keep going?

How does that change the morality of the situation?

[Karasu]

But what if he had been a bath salt zombie in search of delicious faces that could take 6 shots and keep going?

How does that change the morality of the situation?

It's a good enough reason for extended magazines.

[Jaybar]

Who doesn't approach their own front door to see who is inquiring? How suspicious of society do you have to be?

[Plow]

Based on the guy's behavior, he broke it only after he was satisfied the house was empty.

What portion of burglars (armed or not, alone or not) do you think are going to stick around to risk confronting an armed occupant and murdering them when the police are already on their way?


Statements like this come off as disgustingly self-righteous and more than a bit sociopathic.

Because you never did anything wrong in your whole life and you can't possibly conceive how someone desperate for money could do bad things it must mean that it's okay to kill them without a second thought. Even more, you're enthusiastic about it, about ending the life of someone who may not have any intentions of violence.

If the day comes when someone breaks into your house and you gun them down and they turn out to be some 90lb jackoff 15 year old from a broken and abusive home looking for any cash they can find, a person that would trip over their own feet running away at the mere sound of a voice threatening them to leave; if you can honestly tell me that such a person deserves to die for what they've done and that killing them wouldn't bother you in the least then I'm more afraid of you than I am of most burglars.

I will defend endlessly the need for responsibility, fair warning, etc.

But you're talking about a mother defending her children.

I'm not saying by any means that what she did was 100% right, simply that expecting such is unfair.

[Churchill]

I should start breaking into peoples homes because I need a quick buck.

Starting with everyone who is opposed to this great wife.

[quannum]

only if you scamper off at the sound of a frightened female voice.

[Churchill]

But I'll have my hooligan tools and a pistol, why would

OH WAIT

[kuronosan]

I can't be the only one that finds stories like this just a bit methed up. Burglar breaks in after he's satisfied that no one's home and gets shot by inhabitants he doesn't even know are there.

"I've got a gun the police are on their way" from down the hall the moment he got the door open and he would have booked it like 99% of people would. Nobody would fault someone for protecting their kids but it could have ended long before it came to shooting his face off point blank. It's one of those cases where the penalty for breaking and entering an empty house becomes death (guy survived by a total fluke in this case).

Uh don't break into houses? The guy was banging on the door and ringing the doorbell, not something you typically expect of a thief not expecting anyone to be home.

[archibaldcrane]

Niiro, there are thousands of people wrongly killed by homeowners-with-a-gun (relatives/friends/kids/etc) that you can use to point out the folly of home gun ownership if you wish, don't try to shit on the one time it fucking works.

[Jer]

Who doesn't approach their own front door to see who is inquiring? How suspicious of society do you have to be?

The story the radio had on this morning was that she looked out the window and saw the man holding a crowbar while he was banging on the door. She called hubby, who called the police. She hid inside with her kids, because there's a crazy guy outside with a crowbar outside. He breaks in, find them, mommy pumps him full of lead. They said she even kept trying to pull the trigger after all the rounds had been expended and the burglar is the one who had to tell her that she was out of ammo, stop firing, help, etc.

If the above story is true, I think she in the right. I meant, if somebody is beating on your door in the middle of the day with a crowbar, what's he going to say in the event that somebody answers? "Oops, wrong house, never mind the crowbar." Somebody was going to get hurt. Thankfully it was the intruder.

[Niiro]

I will defend endlessly the need for responsibility, fair warning, etc.

But you're talking about a mother defending her children.

I'm not saying by any means that what she did was 100% right, simply that expecting such is unfair.

I didn't mean to come off as criticizing the woman directly, rather lamenting how situations like this escalate when they don't have to and that in an instance such as this it essentially results in a death penalty for attempted burglary. When stories like this are portrayed in a positive light I just wish people took a step back and looked at the bigger picture before purporting incidents like this as a good example of how guns are or should be used effectively for self-defense.

I hardly expect people to weep for the criminal but at the very least look at the situation from his perspective. He spent a good amount of time knocking on the door and ringing the bell until he was satisfied that no one was home before breaking in. The woman inside hid with her children and based on his actions he wasn't aware of this, he went about looking for stuff to steal until he came upon them and was shot for it (by all rights he should be dead but he got lucky, as lucky as you can be after taking 5 shots to the head and neck at least). The woman acted out of fear for herself and her children and while I posed an argument that she could have used better judgement and likely avoided a violent outcome altogether that doesn't mean I think she should be criticized for doing what she felt was necessary.

The man survived and I assume will be charged with burglary, for which the specific charge and penalty varies quite a bit based on the circumstances (whether the perpetrator was armed, their intent, in some places even the time of day is taken into consideration) but in no situation carries a penalty of death. It's one thing to say that the woman's actions were understandably justified given the situation, it's another to say that the burglar deserved to be shot or killed (in this case almost killed) for a crime that carries consequences of no such severity. To not appreciate the distinction is hypocritical and completely dismisses the principle of punishment fitting the crime.

Uh don't break into houses? The guy was banging on the door and ringing the doorbell, not something you typically expect of a thief not expecting anyone to be home.

Uh, how else would a prospective burglar go about checking if a house was occupied? Stake the place out? He's a petty criminal.

If he was there to hurt someone why would he go about rummaging through their belongings if he thought there were people in the house?

[Xno Kappa]

...but at the very least look at the situation from his perspective. He spent a good amount of time knocking on the door and ringing the bell until he was satisfied that no one was home before breaking in. The woman inside hid with her children and based on his actions he wasn't aware of this, he went about looking for stuff to steal until he came upon them and was shot for it (by all rights he should be dead but he got lucky, as lucky as you can be after taking 5 shots to the head and neck at least). The woman acted out of fear for herself and her children and while I posed an argument that she could have used better judgement and likely avoided a violent outcome altogether that doesn't mean I think she should be accused of any kind of wrongdoing.

Are you insinuating there's some kind of code of ethics for home burglaries the woman failed to follow?

Someone broke into her house with children present. You protect your family to the best of your ability. Anything else is speculative garbage no one logical would risk their kids safety for. What is difficult to understand about this?

[Callisto]

I've seen several police PSAs about handling home intruders by offering them sandwiches and hugs and asking them what exactly they were looking for when they happened to force their way into your home.

[Niiro]

Are you insinuating there's some kind of code of ethics for home burglaries the woman failed to follow?

Someone broke into her house with children present. You protect your family to the best of your ability. Anything else is speculative garbage no one logical would risk their kids safety for. What is difficult to understand about this?

It's one thing to say that the woman's actions were understandably justified given the situation, it's another to say that the burglar deserved to be shot or killed (in this case almost killed) for a crime that carries consequences of no such severity. To not appreciate the distinction is hypocritical and completely dismisses the principle of punishment fitting the crime.

.

[Plow]

I didn't mean to come off as criticizing the woman directly, rather lamenting how situations like this escalate when they don't have to and that in an instance such as this it essentially results in a death penalty for attempted burglary.

and I'm just saying that this is a bad example for you to use, because, as mentioned, it's a mother defending her children

it's simply nature, you don't threaten a mother and her children and expect anything less than the threat of death in response

[Nephlite]

The story the radio had on this morning was that she looked out the window and saw the man holding a crowbar while he was banging on the door. She called hubby, who called the police. She hid inside with her kids, because there's a crazy guy outside with a crowbar outside. He breaks in, find them, mommy pumps him full of lead. They said she even kept trying to pull the trigger after all the rounds had been expended and the burglar is the one who had to tell her that she was out of ammo, stop firing, help, etc.

If the above story is true, I think she in the right. I meant, if somebody is beating on your door in the middle of the day with a crowbar, what's he going to say in the event that somebody answers? "Oops, wrong house, never mind the crowbar." Somebody was going to get hurt. Thankfully it was the intruder.

I think (personally) people shouldn't pass judgement on an incident till the full story comes out. Tidbits of information without getting the whole picture will lead people to jump to whatever conclusion that fits their agenda on that particular day. Weather it be to bash gun rights or killings, you shouldn't just randomly say "Oh she wasn't justified". There's so little account of what happened; we could speculate all day as to what could have happened and play a thousand different scenario's. But what it really comes down to is you gotta put yourself in to that persons shoes. Can you honestly say under the exact same circumstances, you wouldn't have reacted the same? What if she did warn the guy? What if she told him at the door to fuck off and he came in anyways?

There's a reason Burglary/Breaking and Entering/Housebreaking is considered a Class A Felony in most jurisdictions. Hell here in D.C. (In Georgetown where the rich are FILTHY rich), they break in to your house, tie you and your family up and leave you there for a few days. One poor old lady died because she had no family to check on her and the only reason someone even found her dead was because her gardener came to the house to water the plants and found her tied up and beaten in her bedroom. Burglary in the District is considered a serious crime of violence. Maybe such crimes are prevalent in her neighborhood and people were getting hurt and she was already on edge because of it? Or maybe she (like 90-95% of the population of the world) don't have a John McClaine mentality and try to cowboy their way through life with shootouts and killing helicopters with cars?

This woman was probably scared out of her mind. Not to even fathom the fact that 1. Nothing like this ever happened to her so she probably didn't have a solid plan other than what she did and didn't think of the long term, or 2. All she saw when the guy opened the door was a guy with a weapon menacing her and her children? I know personally, my kids are everything to me. I could divorce my wife now and survive but without my kids, I am nothing. To even think someone (even a loved one) could ever hurt them or take them away from me, is unthinkable. I would die before I let something happen to them. Even if it means killing someone dear to me, I would do it without question, without hesitation, and with no mercy.