Geomancers: Wielders of Nature's Force (03/21/2013)

[Spira]

This is what the Trolls and Mamool Ja do too...

It's also what I meant by this post. "Attacking everyone" isn't relevant or specific to the Lamiae. I don't know why you brought it up two times.

my point which your quote replied to (they attack everyone) was based on in-game lore / cutscenes when Aphmau says that Lamiae attack everyone. you interpreted it as in-game aggro mechanic.
i responded that you can infer lore from gameplay (the example of qiqirn supports this, since qiqirn are less hostile and do not aggro), but not all the time (besieged is a gameplay mechanic. lore merely states the beastmen attack al zahbi and will never go into technicalities like "its a Lv5 besieged!")

the trolls and mamool ja on the other hand do not attack everyone. the trolls' actions are governed by moblins and the mamool ja have their reasons for attacking Al Zahbi and taking the candescence out of their hands. And they didn't used to hostile anyway.

[Spira]

In which case all beastmen are alike in their desire in killing the Five Races because they aggro regardless of whether or not you're part of the Allied Forces, Conquest or Imperial Mercenaries. Meaning all beastmen which aggro exhibit the same behaviour you deem so heinous for Lamia.

If you really wanted to make a case for Lamia and Merrow being mindless killing machines, you should've used the fact the Empire created them to exterminate Epharamad and now that their job is done, they've turned against the Empire. (This contradicts my earlier statement, I realize, but I have the two competing thoughts in my mind and I'll have to check the cutscenes later cuz I'm tired as hell atm)

I feel I should point out that there's no real confirmation Poroggos are artificial beings, just that their is a legend about it and Professor Clarvauret named the monsters after the legend. (In fact if you want to argue a 'non-sentient' beastmen, Poroggo might be your best candidate, having no speaking roles whatsoever. Though, I feel they may have in that one ToAU quest I'll have to rewatch now. And before someone points out they cast magic therefore are intelligent: worms.)

Also the Lamia undead army being more sentient.... you're literally saying the undead zombified masses which are controlled by Lamia are more intelligent beings capable of rational thought. Antica are a hairier conversation, but they clearly have some degree of rational thought within the hive when deciding whether or not to join the Crystal War. Just as the Lamia made a clear and conscious choice to attempt to take the Astral Candescence and revive their slain enemies to do so.

I mean there's some clear lore contradiction when it comes to adventurers, yes. We are always the ONE who saved the world. YOU are always the fourth spitewarden, not your party members. YOU are the one Prishe mourns the death of against Shinryu. But arguing that because you can't receive Sanction means beastmen shouldn't aggro you is stupid. At that point, congratulations, there's a bunch of other adventurers walking around killing shit with the Empire's Sanction. There is no Geneva convention, you look like an adventurer, walk like an adventurer, talk like an adventurer, there's no reason for the Lamia to stop and go WAIT MAYBE HE ISN'T A MERCENARY. Just like when we go to Davoi we don't go "hold on bro, this Orcish Mesmerizer, he might not be so bad."

this is why i said sentience is an iffy indicator of hostility after i used it myself. and added that we all clearly have a different view on what defines sentience.

also, what you say is exactly the reason why I mentioned that gameplay isn't always indicative of lore. Sometimes they tie in, sometimes they don't. Clearly general gameplay system mechanics don't hold to be true, as you've mentioned. If it did then hey, maybe there IS a geneva convention! Bakgodek doesn't even bat an eyelid at you if you're next to him without an Allied Tag right? >_>

[Seha]

I love this conversation. /fangirl

[Spagnutty]

Qt ll ths rgung, vryn knws Mblns r th bst.

[Eurell]

Qt ll ths rgung, vryn knws Mblns r th bst.

[Spagnutty]

Noooo

[Kyte]

Gigas just seem derp. They aren't bright which means they find themselves on whichever side of the battlefield can convince them to smash some shit. Trolls seem to follow a similar behavior of being mercenaries but where the Gigas are hurr durr, the Trolls seem to have advanced skills with machinery, tools and siege equipment. Gotta be a bit smart to play PUP afterall.

The Gigas are implied to be a bit smarter than they appear- they're architects and builders responsible for Castle Zvahl.

1. Lamiae/Merrow - Hell-bent on killing enlightened races. Not exactly sentient.
2. Tonberry - Twisted Kuluu. Rancor, beyond reason.
3. Kindred - Servants of Odin. Evil.
4. Orc - Has an empire. Expansionist.
5. Yagudo - Theocratic. Views the rest as heathens.
6. Mamool Ja - Clever but used to bow to the empire.
7. Quadav - Generally peaceful but circumstantially hostile.
8. Gigas - Strong?
9. Antica - Hive mind.
10. Sahagin - Altana worshippers. Not much lore.
11. Troll - Mercenaries. Not too bright
12. Moblin - They don't disturb others. Mercenaries too.
13. Goblin - Generally neutral, traders and all.
14. Meeble -Only happen to be antisocial.
15. Qiqirn - they're almost totally friendly, in a mercenary way

This seems about right in terms of ranking, although I don't particularly agree with some of your descriptions. Sahagin are basically Vana'diel's equivalent of Green Peace- I would maybe put them below the Trolls. I would put Antica pretty far up there; despite the fact that maybe they don't fully understand their actions, what they do is pretty horrible. Bastok tried to at least put them to good use by giving them a different voice to answer to but that failed pretty miserably- implying that they have a natural tendency towards being horrible bastards.

Poroggo - not much real lore to suggest where they would rank.

If I remember right, the story about them suggests that they would have potentially been just as friendly as Qiqirn, but Windurst decided that they hated them and attempted a genocide.

I'm kind of iffy on the Kindred. At one time I would have put them at number 1, but now I'm not too sure.

[Kincard]

If I remember right, the story about them suggests that they would have potentially been just as friendly as Qiqirn, but Windurst decided that they hated them and attempted a genocide.

Yeah, pretty much, the story basically goes that there was a PETA taru girl feeling bad about all the frogs getting trampled so she magicked Poroggos into existence, who were willing to live peacefully with the Tarutaru until they got all insecure and decided to kill all of them.

[Odin'sLaw]

Yeah, pretty much, the story basically goes that there was a PETA taru girl feeling bad about all the frogs getting trampled so she magicked Poroggos into existence, who were willing to live peacefully with the Tarutaru until they got all insecure and decided to kill all of them.

people think us Elvaan are bad, what race hasn't the taru's nuked first forgot to ask questions about?

[Hitou]

I've always said Taru are the most evil of the five races. They drove out/tried to kill off the poroggo. Their responsible for draining all the mana out of Saruta-baruta. Plus Shantotto. But she's a funny kind of evil.

To derail this thread even further, I'll rank the five races in terms of evilocity.

1.Tarutaru - Their cabbage patch kid faces hide their malicious intent.
2. Humes - Racist assholes that hate anything that's not hume. Cid's face alone puts them in this rank.
3. Mithra - I'd rank them lower (and not just because I play mithra) but the sin hunters are pretty much the worst people ever. Also Naja. Especially Naja.
4 Elvaaan - Exceedingly haughty but not generally evil. Though they did allow Tavnazia to be destroyed...
5. Galka - Full of wrath but rightfully so. Could argue shadow lord would rank them higher, but you kinda fix that... sorta.

As I typed this I thought of 100 reasons to rearrange the the list... Half the time the 5 races are worse than the beastmen lol.

[ronin sparthos]

The Gigas are implied to be a bit smarter than they appear- they're architects and builders responsible for Castle Zvahl.

I've never seen anything on the Castle being designed by Gigas, only being built by them which makes perfect sense if you're a race of simple-minded beastmen who pride themselves on fighting and strength.

As for the 5 races? None of them are inherently "evil" as most of their decisions are supposed to have analogs to how our "races" act in the real world in a political/moral sense. I thought Chains of Promathia already explained well enough that while each race has inherent problems that plague them there are numerous people that have been bucking that trend.

For every scumbag Hume working Galka to death in mines we see a shopkeeper peddling wares, some random knight protecting Jeuno or more recognizable characters like a Klara, a General Najelith or a Volker.

Then you've got people like Raubahn or Zeid who straddle shades of gray.

The same could be said about famous Galka NPCs like Ghatsad, Zazarg or Iron Eater.

[Rocl]

Isn't the Tarutaru flaw Fear? Seems their history is littered with examples of "we're worried about something hurting us, so we'll exterminate it before it can."

The Tarutaru flaw is being Tarutaru.

[Kincard]

people think us Elvaan are bad, what race hasn't the taru's nuked first forgot to ask questions about?

The scary part is that the Tarutaru girl that created Poroggos is referred to as a treasonist in Windurst's history. I like to imagine they just grabbed her and burned her at the stake afterwards or something similar.

Isn't the Tarutaru flaw Fear? Seems their history is littered with examples of "we're worried about something hurting us, so we'll exterminate it before it can."

Yeah, they're pretty consistent with each race's fatal flaw. Out of the 5 the two most destructive in a direct sense are cowardice and rage. Apathy and Arrogance are probably more likely to cause extensive destruction if its actually began. I don't think Envy has played as much of a role in the lore before. Mithras got cat privilege!

[Chamaan]

Hume aren't racist. We just don't give a shit about what our own enterprise does to anyone else, even other Hume. Apathy. "Oh we're going to destroy the environment with our boats? These delicious eggs are some turtle's babies? Galka want basic rights and equality? The solution to all these problems is to send more Hume orphans into the shakiest tunnels in Gusgen Mines because no 1 curr~"

[ronin sparthos]

All the more why Zeid was justified.

[noodles355]

This is the most interesting discussion I've read on BG in a long time <3

[Chrian]

And it all started with some sentient crystal

[Mairja]

I'm thoroughly impressed with you guys, knowing/remembering all this stuff

[Seha]

The lore of this game is complex and beautiful, I wish more people would appreciate it instead of spamming enter through quests and missions.

[Treize Kordero]

The lore of this game is complex and beautiful, I wish more people would appreciate it instead of spamming enter through quests and missions.

So agree!! I used to hate when people rushed me when doing CoP because I wanted to watch the CS and read dialog.