Attack and Defence update

[Guitarman]

Yeah it's definitely going to require rethinking how you play. I can't say I like this change, especially since I'm lowmanning 99% of the time, but what are you gonna do?

[Obsidian]

Use an Ochain!

[Guppy]

I've seen three pet job comments in this thread. Two of them are complaining that their pets can't get hate while you're complaining that your pet gets too much hate.

Well normally it would be easy to keep hate on a bst pet, or on yourself as a drg, so if enmity is suddenly more volatile and shifting between targets where it wouldn't have before, both jobs are going to notice it but they'd have opposite complaints.

Increased ping-pong volatility makes a lot of sense in explaining what BST and DRG players are seeing, with less enmity being generated by both player and pet. But unfortunately for SMN, mages continue to earn full enmity for non-melee actions.

[Guitarman]

Use an Ochain!

Trust me that's been on my mind since adoulin hit. but the thought of doing those trials makes my butthole pucker.

[Prothescar]

BLU is the answer to all of these concerns

[dasva]

BLU is the answer to all of these concerns

Diffusion Exuviation ftw right?

[mallister]

Thaumas/mandau/af3/etc apparently

that is how he was equipped; sorry if i was unclear. no legion gear, and pretty sure the mandood is 95 not 99.

[grevenilvec75]

Yeah it's definitely going to require rethinking how you play. I can't say I like this change, especially since I'm lowmanning 99% of the time, but what are you gonna do?

Go back in time and stop people from bitching about enmity.

[Obsidian]

Trust me that's been on my mind since adoulin hit. but the thought of doing those trials makes my butthole pucker.

Glad I got mine done months ago, because I doubt you're the only one considering it, and I don't envy anyone trying to do those trials now with even more competition.

[dasva]

Ok so tested stoneskin and refresh and haste and spectral jig... they all have the same enmity as before which is about 1/6 of a provoke so not exactly a big deal lol

[Kincard]

While I think they should readjust the enmity on static gains (ESPECIALLY cure V/VI) and continue refinement on the enmity system, I think it says a lot about the playerbase when all of a sudden WHMs are pulling hate for the first time in years and peoples' reaction to that is "THE GAME IS BROKEN" instead of trying to change their playstyle to accommodate the change. :/

[dasva]

While I think they should readjust the enmity on static gains (ESPECIALLY cure V/VI) and continue refinement on the enmity system, I think it says a lot about the playerbase when all of a sudden WHMs are pulling hate for the first time in years and peoples' reaction to that is "THE GAME IS BROKEN" instead of trying to change their playstyle to accommodate the change. :/

Haven't gotten to test it yet but they did say they were adjusting cure V but not VI since they posit that 6 should only be a backup. But yeah I'll leave that for another time since tranquil heart makes things annoying and doing regular cure enmity now... speaking of which wonder how many whms actually lvld healing skill to take advantage of it lol

[NynJa]

Ok so tested stoneskin and refresh and haste and spectral jig... they all have the same enmity as before which is about 1/6 of a provoke so not exactly a big deal lol

Did you test this on lv1 mobs or lv51 mobs?

[dasva]

Did you test this on lv1 mobs or lv51 mobs?

lvl 1. Fine I'll go test on something higher under the odd assumption that SE may have changed fixed enmity self buffs spells/jas into some complicated equation that relies on a mob that isn't being targeted on accident as crazy as that sounds. Might take awhile since a couple of my characters are gimpish so not taking dmg without sleep will be hard

Edit: Haste and stoneskin are still fixed enmity when cast onself with hate on an abyssea mob. So nope SE didn't do something really crazy without telling us

[Damane]

Diffusion Exuviation ftw right?

not really that, but my BLU is haveing hate and keeping hate alot against heavy DD without me intending to do so. I dont know how BLU magic enmity is (physical and magical) with add effects, but it seems to piss off mobs alot. especially sudden lunge and magic fruit

[RicFlair]

People are talking about WHMs pulling hate easily and adjustments to cure V only but iirc they also adjusted enmity from hp cured to match with the enmity nerf on Damage dealt. So I can't see whms having to be more cautious or playing much differently unless it's the beginning of the fight and you have to cure 500+ hp already. I havent tested it myself since my group has been hiatus playing with the new update but I'm just trying to seek clarity.

"The amount of enmity accumulation based upon how much damage players deal to a target and the amount of HP it can recover will be reduced when facing targets over level 50."

[Guitarman]

I havent tested it myself

Try it. If you have to cure aggressively a whm is going to run the risk of pulling threat now. Rolling CureIV/V with a single VI was getting my alt knocked around, even while our DD were ripping apart the newly squishy legion mobs. Ignore the warning if you want, but I'm just trying to warn people to use caution so their healers aren't eating floor not expecting a change.

[Taim Meich]

Regarding pet tanking, as a PUP:

- Maneuvers are the same DPS loss as before, but at least now they have the added benefit of extra enmity. That, plus damage alone makes keeping hate off the automaton pretty reasonable most of the time.

- An early enfeeble (Slow, specially, but that's probably me prioriticing the most eye-catching one) means mob to the automaton. If it casts Haste on you, it can get hate, too, but apparently to a lower extent. Now it is pretty much mandatory to hit a round or two, WS if possible, and/or throuw at least a maneuver before deploying the automaton to ensure the mob stays somewhat stable. That, or...

- Voke!! /WAR is still the sub to use. Tried /NIN at first but evasion is pretty shitty on most stuff, so shadows fly away easily (not to mention Mantids wiping 3 shadows per attack...). Subbing WAR, even if not using Berser that much, still gives many DD goodies, plus the invaluable provoke to get the hate planted on you.



tl;dr: Hate through damage alone is not possible anymore, mission accomplished!

[The Stig]

Just contributing here as opposed to the other thread where only 1 person responded:

Regarding BSTs and hate, Jormy was idle this morning so I took 2 BST with me to go kill it.

Had no hate issues, they meleed fine until HP went low due to AOE.

Unsure if it is specific (a lot of them) mobs that are broke or anything lol

It might not be anything specific but just the general you will gain less hate from dmg now on mobs higher than 51 and the higher potential dmg mobs can deal to us or our pets now taking hate away

So I did do some old but 51+ content with 2 BSTs over the weekend, and here are some more anecdotes:

Abyssea: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hazhdiha
2 BSTs fighting it, BST pet unable to keep hate reliably *(sheep/rabbit), it kept changing targets randomly, couldn't establish why -- the NM does attack rapidly and perhaps the damage is reducing hate, but even after 1000+ damage foot kicks the rabbits can't reliably keep it glued to them - multiple snarls were used to redirect hate

Abyssea: Dragua
Meleed for a bit until it got dangerous due to StonegaIV/Terra Wing spam

Abyssea: Ovni
Pre update I was able to solo it with 1 (raged) sheep with my little to no of my help. Post update unless I feed the pet (which I'm too cheap to do) it takes 2 sheep, and 3 sheep for a semi-afk fight. I know it takes reduced damage as the fight drags on but the defense update may have a play here.

Abyssea: Ironclad Executioner
1 BST fighting it, sheep/rabbit was able to keep hate consistently with no usage of snarl, until he fires his Arm Cannon which resets hate on primary target. Busting out 1500~2000 rampages (still working on ruinator ; ; ) takes no hate.

I wonder how this will change farming in Abyssea as a BST. I am extremely casual now and am working on things at a slow pace and it'd suck to now have to spend time forming a PUG or dragging my LS to help me with mundane things that I was once able to do on my own...

I think so far I can safely say nothing has changed. I only recently came back and been doing abyssea for stuff. For none abyssea:

Nyzul Isle Floor 20 Behemoth
2 sheep beating on it, both BSTs unable to take hate

Wanjaon Woodlands Hydra
2 rabbits, both BSTs beating on it, can't take hate

I'm aware it's not relevant content but it's stuff above 51! But under 99 -- I'm not geared/knowledgable enough to dip into Legion/Salvage2/Nyzul2

So in a way nothing seems to have changed (for myself and 2 ) aside from that dragon behaving weirdly (wiki doesn't suggest any special hate mechanics) - technically all hate is via damage (via the pet) in the given scenarios above with a Cure Waltz III every now and then.

[fantasticdan]

pup stuff

Is valoredge tanking more viable now, since his enmity (voke/flash/shieldbash) is JA based?