All of the above - Alternative Energy Options

[Kryssan]

I agree. That's terrible. But it's going to happen though. Sorry I hate to seem so pessimistic but I'm a realist. The oil companies and politicians that are in their pocket have all the power and they are going to build it whether we like it or not. We are going to change the face of this planet, kill off countless species, and our children's, children's, children will have to deal with it. But here's the thing. Eventually the ecosystem will recover. I'm not justifying what ruined it I'm just saying. With radioactive waste though.. how to describe.. you have to think in the long term. And I mean really long term. Let's say 500,000 years from now. I'll be willing to bet that areas polluted with fossil fuels would have recovered by then. Not with radioactive contamination. You assume it's still going to be safely tucked away in it's warehouse somewhere. Who knows what can happen in the future? There could be a war, an earthquake that collapses the roof and crushes the containers letting the material out into the environment, even land deformations caused by continental drift that effect a underground facility. The point is, the lethality of the radioactive waste will outlast all this. So let's just say in a distant future the world is different and we only use clean energy and learn to not fuck up the world. Something could happen to one of those places that everybody has forgotten about and it's get's out into the environment. But hey, we'll be dead by then so who cares right?



That's interesting Kryssan. I have never heard that before. I would like to know the half life of naturally occurring fission material vs enriched uranium though.

Radioactive isotopes have existed on earth for countless millenia. If anything, future generations of life that far in advance will have found new uses for it. If you look at nuclear fuel storage, one of the reasons we don't simply bury it but go through an active containment stage is because we don't want to get rid of it. Fast reactors can use nuclear 'waste' material, and 'reactors' like NIF can burn it out to eliminate long lived particulate and at the same time create exotic material.

It does always come back to money though. In the short term, it is not being used; the current setup is 'thoroughly tested' by the past 50 odd years of operation whereas other setups aren't ( except fast reactors, which again, the Russians have been using for years, nay decades - they are the only country still, to this day, with fast reactors on the grid [ all other fast reactor units in the world are for testing only ] - but I suppose we should not be surprised that we're not adopting it widespread ). Moreover, particularly the US which is scared to death of proliferation, fuel is not recycled for reuse.


As to your last item there, I'm thinking you are confused. Enriched uranium is naturally occurring. Uranium that is enriched is just 'processed' to strip away as much of the U-238 as possible and leave behind U-235. 235 is a thermal fuel, which is the majority of reactor complexes. U-238 is a fast fuel, which is a minority - but it exists in nature as the majority. So when you mine Uranium, you get mostly 238, but also 234 and 235 while current thermal plant complexes desire 235 above all else, and you have to separate the 235 out which is called 'enrichment'; a higher percentage of 235 allows you to increase the 'lifetime' of a thermal fission plant. U-234* and 236 only exist in MOX fuels.

Edit: U-234 can be a naturally occuring impurity, but for most purposes in nature it exists as an extreme minority. U-234 'impurity' alpha particles have a limited purpose in providing source neutrons above fiducia level in thermal reactor complexes. You get a lot more 234 in MOX, and you only get 236 from waste / MOX. 236 is generally considered to be worthless waste.

[Abandon]

thanks to the navy, i understood that. kuddos

[Xno Kappa]

[Outlaw]

1. Where's the proof that the ecosystem "recovers" from the largest amount of pollution it has ever experienced and will have ever experienced because it's man-made and not naturally occurring?

The Yellowstone Caldera (supervolcano) has erupted multiple times in the last few million years. It was much worse than any oil spill. The last time it erupted it did this:

The current caldera was created by a cataclysmic eruption that occurred 640,000 years ago, which released more than 1,000 km³ (240 cubic miles) of ash, rock and pyroclastic materials.[59] This eruption was 1,000 times larger than the 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens.[60] It produced a caldera nearly five eighths of a mile (1 km) deep and 45 by 28 miles (72 by 45 km) in area and deposited the Lava Creek Tuff, a welded tuff geologic formation.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...aCreekTuff.jpg

The area in yellow was completely buried in a thick layer of volcanic ash and pyroclastic material.

2. Are you seriously suggesting we should be pursuing energy forms that will wreck everything in the environment within the next 100-200 years so that whatever monstrosity that exists on the planet 500,000 years from now doesn't have to deal with used fuel rods?

No. I wish we weren't mining the sands. I don't want it to happen. But like I said it's going to happen. You can protest, write your congressman, etc all you want.. They won't do anything. I have no faith in our governments anymore. All I am saying is a area that has been contaminated with large amounts of radiation is more dangerous. Let's say a person temporally went to a area that has been polluted by the oil sands like a researcher evaluating the environmental impact. You could stay there for days and as long as you used simple precautions like not drinking the water and using gloves it is likely you won't get sick or have any permanent damage. But if a area was heavily affected by radioactive material (like Chernobyl) if you stay there is a high chance you are going to get cancer or affected in god knows what way. Also the area will be affected for a lot longer. The area around Chernobyl will be uninhabitable by humans for millions of years.

[hey]

But if a area was heavily affected by radioactive material (like Chernobyl) if you stay there is a high chance you are going to get cancer or affected in god knows what way. Also the area will be affected for a lot longer. The area around Chernobyl will be uninhabitable by humans for millions of years.

Sounds like the solution is to build more (new) nuclear plants to make sure that can't happen.

[Outlaw]

As to your last item there, I'm thinking you are confused. Enriched uranium is naturally occurring. Uranium that is enriched is just 'processed' to strip away as much of the U-238 as possible and leave behind U-235. 235 is a thermal fuel, which is the majority of reactor complexes. U-238 is a fast fuel, which is a minority - but it exists in nature as the majority. So when you mine Uranium, you get mostly 238, but also 234 and 235 while current thermal plant complexes desire 235 above all else, and you have to separate the 235 out which is called 'enrichment'; a higher percentage of 235 allows you to increase the 'lifetime' of a thermal fission plant. U-234* and 236 only exist in MOX fuels.

Yeah, I know it's natural. I was just talking about the processed 235. "Enriched" is just such a common blanket term that you hear all the time I'll catch myself using it. Still the prospect of one of the storage places being compromised and the stuff getting spread around scares the hell out of me.

[Mazmaz]

Why are you so scared of cancer? Everything gives you cancer and we'll probably find a cure for it soon.

[Stanislaw]

Sounds like the solution is to build more (new) nuclear plants to make sure that can't happen.

To be fair, there are more nuclear polluted areas made by atomic weapons such as the Semipalatinsk Test Site and its Lake Chagan, compared to areas polluted by nuclear power plants. Not to mention, there's been weapon-related accidents like the Palomares incident too.

Compared to the amount of pollution weaponized nuclear technology has caused, the pollution its more peaceful uses have created is tiny.

[Kryssan]

There are already fungi at Chernobyl that have adapted to feed on radiation.

The meltdown was less than 30 years ago.

1. Where's the proof that the ecosystem "recovers" from the largest amount of pollution it has ever experienced and will have ever experienced because it's man-made and not naturally occurring?
2. Are you seriously suggesting we should be pursuing energy forms that will wreck everything in the environment within the next 100-200 years so that whatever monstrosity that exists on the planet 500,000 years from now doesn't have to deal with used fuel rods?

Actually, depending on what theories you accept for abiogenesis, radiative energy from decaying and spontaneously fissioning actinides may have had a hand in the creation of life on Earth. So that 'monstrosity' could be argued to be us... though in that example, the timeline was much longer than 500k years.

'Bad for humans' does not mean 'bad for life'. We silly humans will engineer a far more creative and fantastic means to our demise. The current dice roll suggests it'll be biological or chemical in nature. In all honesty it amazes me that we haven't had a major biological contamination incident already with some of those lovely weaponized diseases, particularly after Project PAPERCLIP ( a shoutout to you, Plum Island ) and the fall of the Iron Curtain.

Edit: Before assertions are made, rest assured I do not believe in conspiracy theories. PAPERCLIP had some good results, but it had its share of bad apples. I call out Plum Island specifically because it was a biological research center utilized for many years by the government ( though I believe it is currently in mothball / shutdown status pending a sale that never occurred ) and if an incidental release had occurred on the island during its operation there are several populated areas within windfall distance. Coulda picked a slightly more remote location. I know if I had to choose which I lived near, I would always pick a nuclear power plant over an NBAF - and to my knowledge, there has never been a major release from an NBAF.

[BaneTheBrawler]

plum island is (Was?) scary as fuck whether you buy into the conspiracy theories or not