Super Smash Bros.

[Cream Soda]

Dat monado jump

[samalis]

It's pretty basic from what I've seen. I doubt it'll even scratch the technical level of Melee, and it probably won't get to even Brawl level but close.

Rock has a few weird techs ATM, but that's all I could find (some weird pseudo-glide toss stuff). Some cool interactions and matchups though. It'll probably be more fun for doubles than 1v1s.

Let's not make the mistake of maining Ike again, k?

I never got into brawl, I mean I played it for a little bit with friends but got turned off from it. I recently went back to smash and played Melee on dolphin with netplay and fell in love with the game again (didn't have a local scene at all back in the day) and have experimented with PM a bunch. I am not knowledgeable in brawl at all and I know a lot of people on this forum played the fuck out of it.

Could you explain why Brawl is more technical? Curious in general so I could be more well informed. I know PM is definitely more technical then Sm4sh but I want to know how brawl is. I hear a lot of people saying its in between Brawl and Melee, but that is pretty much all I know since I didn't play Brawl that much.

[Not Kuno]

Is Palutena really that bad?

[Tokitoki]

I feel like it's too early to start ranking them. As someone said above, different playstyles will lead to different rankings.

[Genosync]

I never got into brawl, I mean I played it for a little bit with friends but got turned off from it. I recently went back to smash and played Melee on dolphin with netplay and fell in love with the game again (didn't have a local scene at all back in the day) and have experimented with PM a bunch. I am not knowledgeable in brawl at all and I know a lot of people on this forum played the fuck out of it.

Could you explain why Brawl is more technical? Curious in general so I could be more well informed. I know PM is definitely more technical then Sm4sh but I want to know how brawl is. I hear a lot of people saying its in between Brawl and Melee, but that is pretty much all I know since I didn't play Brawl that much.

Was trying to say that Melee is more technical than Brawl, and that even Brawl will probably be more technical than Smash 4. Smash 4's speed increases and hit stun changes however will probably make it edge out a little bit over Brawl in the competitive scene, however Melee is still going to be the one everyone talks about.

Brawl's got a decent bit of technical tricks and BS. DACUS, reverse DACUS, glide toss, platform cancels, edge cancels, IASA moves (I haven't seen any early interruptible moves in 4), tethers, chain grabs, SDI, etc.

Let's take Ike, for instance. There are three things Ike can do from that list:

1. Jab cancels: Ike's Jab1 and Jab2 can be interrupted before the move's animation ends. You can press down, then throw another jab out. So J1 > J2 > cancel > J1 > J2 > J3 works on most people that can't SDI perfectly out of it. Or you could repeatedly J1 someone into a wall (Kirk has a funny video of this on Green Greens back in the day).
2. Reverse DACUS: DACUS means Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash, and the most notable one is Snake's sliding along the ground with his mortar. While Ike doesn't get the distance that Snake, Sheik, Wolf, Wario, Jiggs get, you can reverse during your dash, input a jump to cancel the turn animation, and then input USmash to have Ike's sword go the opposite way it normally does. It's just a mixup but it's very useful for catching air dodges into the ground.
3. Glide Toss: Input a roll, and throw an item in any direction at the same time (cstick). A lot of characters can do this and get heavy horizontal momentum in a grounded state.

[Nitsuki]

Dedede losing chain grab makes me cry

[Xajii]

Was trying to say that Melee is more technical than Brawl, and that even Brawl will probably be more technical than Smash 4. Smash 4's speed increases and hit stun changes however will probably make it edge out a little bit over Brawl in the competitive scene, however Melee is still going to be the one everyone talks about.

Brawl's got a decent bit of technical tricks and BS. DACUS, reverse DACUS, glide toss, platform cancels, edge cancels, IASA moves (I haven't seen any early interruptible moves in 4), tethers, chain grabs, SDI, etc.

Let's take Ike, for instance. There are three things Ike can do from that list:

1. Jab cancels: Ike's Jab1 and Jab2 can be interrupted before the move's animation ends. You can press down, then throw another jab out. So J1 > J2 > cancel > J1 > J2 > J3 works on most people that can't SDI perfectly out of it. Or you could repeatedly J1 someone into a wall (Kirk has a funny video of this on Green Greens back in the day).
2. Reverse DACUS: DACUS means Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash, and the most notable one is Snake's sliding along the ground with his mortar. While Ike doesn't get the distance that Snake, Sheik, Wolf, Wario, Jiggs get, you can reverse during your dash, input a jump to cancel the turn animation, and then input USmash to have Ike's sword go the opposite way it normally does. It's just a mixup but it's very useful for catching air dodges into the ground.
3. Glide Toss: Input a roll, and throw an item in any direction at the same time (cstick). A lot of characters can do this and get heavy horizontal momentum in a grounded state.

at this stage i feel like you are just talking out of your ass and making wild predictions with pessimism... the game hasn't even been released to the majority of the player base yet and you're saying omg there's no tech!!!11 it takes time to figure out tech, and people have already found some interesting things with vectoring, stun canceling, other strange movement options, etc. tech doesn't show up day 1. some games tech is still discovered years later...

[Genosync]

at this stage i feel like you are just talking out of your ass and making wild predictions with pessimism... the game hasn't even been released to the majority of the player base yet and you're saying omg there's no tech!!!11 it takes time to figure out tech, and people have already found some interesting things with vectoring, stun canceling, other strange movement options, etc. tech doesn't show up day 1. some games tech is still discovered years later...

I'm not saying there's "no" tech. I'm saying that there's probably more in Brawl.

I'm also saying Smash 4 is probably the better game vs Brawl, and that Smash 4 is not going to stand up to Melee in the competitive scene (and you would agree if you've watched plenty of footage).

And I'm happy with all of that. So maybe stop reading into what I'm saying, and look at it objectively instead of getting emotional.

[Madeline]

I don't think it's that necessarily so much as he's well rooted into the hardcore side of these games

It's just technical/hardcore talk.

Personally, I don't give a fuck about any kind of tier list. I play who I want, preferably against those who do the same. I hope there's some of those people here, as there's a lot of talking about tiers and who is/isn't worth using already. =p

It's hard to enjoy a match against someone who knows bloody everything when you're used to playing with friends. XD

That said, based midnight release. My body is ready.

[Xajii]

I'm not saying there's "no" tech. I'm saying that there's probably more in Brawl.

I'm also saying Smash 4 is probably the better game vs Brawl, and that Smash 4 is not going to stand up to Melee in the competitive scene (and you would agree if you've watched plenty of footage).

And I'm happy with all of that. So maybe stop reading into what I'm saying, and look at it objectively instead of getting emotional.

Well, I don't think there's any question that the game won't stand up to Melee competitively. We can tell that overall speed, landing lag, and basic overarching things like that + moving options simply aren't as designed for competitive play. Was never putting that into question.

My feeling having watched everything that's out there and played only the demo is that we will probably reach a Brawl level of unique tech just in different areas. Unfortunately, some of that tech is going to be lamer than Brawl - I really don't like special move canceling hit stun, for example - but other tech will probably open up new opportunities.

I'm not emotionally offended by anything you're saying, especially since I'm frankly not good enough at the games to care a great deal about whether one is more competitive than the other; but as a dedicated observer, I think it's silly ot say pre-US release of the 3DS version that tech won't match up to Brawl. It's not like Brawl's tech was all discovered right away.

[Meian]

Is Palutena really that bad?

You saw Aerolink play her? In what regards did he even make her look bad (minus that one Little Mac player haha)

We can tell that overall speed, landing lag, and basic overarching things like that + moving options simply aren't as designed for competitive play.

I don't see why not, the edge game is much better than it is in previous games.

I think it's silly ot say pre-US release of the 3DS version that tech won't match up to Brawl. It's not like Brawl's tech was all discovered right away.

Yup, Palutena showed some of this and I am sure there are several others who have tech-y stuff

[Not Kuno]

You saw Aerolink play her? In what regards did he even make her look bad (minus that one Little Mac player haha)

I meant in regards to the tier list. Being on the absolute bottom had me worried a bit. Some others I like are pretty low, too.

I wonder if WiiU version will change/fix some of the competative side of things.

[Xajii]

man, tier lists mean so much nothing right now.. look at the comparison of melee tier lists between like 2004 and 2014 lol

[Elcura]

Tier list is just current, things change but generally if you pay attention you can figure out why people rank characters high and why your character ranks low. Still, letting tier lists affect your character choice is stupid. You always go with who you like or whoever feels best.

Then people figure things out, tier lists change and you try to figure out what happened yourself. By the end of melee/brawl I could play just about every character competently even if I only really focused on 2-3.

[Not Kuno]

I havent actually read/watched anything to stay spoiler free mostly. Only the demo. Ill still play who I like.

12 hours remain.

[Cream Soda]

First version update available in e-shop in case you want to get it before congestion tonight

[Meian]

I meant in regards to the tier list. Being on the absolute bottom had me worried a bit. Some others I like are pretty low, too.

I wonder if WiiU version will change/fix some of the competative side of things.

Was why I questioned this tier list because of certain extremes like her being on par with Ganondorf after seeing some plays by Aerolink in such a short amount of time. Sheik is definitely up there, she is like the next Metaknight but not at the same level he was in Brawl. JP probably do play differently and I cannot say for sure how good the JP competitive community is particularly in Smash 4.

[Meian]

Still, letting tier lists affect your character choice is stupid.

On the fence about that one, depends on the person. For me,when Brawl was around and I was fooling around with some of the chars I noticed I had done exceptionally well with Meta Knight prior to people finding out he was broken. Later on when I saw the degree of Meta Knight's brokenness and the mirror matches tournament games I watched throughout it left a bad taste in my mouth. While Meta Knight wasn't my main by any means even at the beginning, it did turn me away from him though I would play him casually when playing different characters. My main at the time was Ness which I did use competitively and used Wario as a backup for any difficult matches which generally involved Meta Knight (who luckily was pretty good in regards to tier list but not broken to the point you see him THAT often). It did sadden me when I would hear my Wario was better than my Ness because of him just being overall a better character which was why they are in different tiers of the tier list.

I knew some others though that had mained lower tiered chars and had done very well with them. Obviously, when it came to fighting certain top tier chars, they could not do anything about it. In some unfortunate cases, I saw them abandon who they really liked to play a higher tier char. In any game I never really liked the idea of picking the best just for the sake of winning but people do what they have to do to win. That's normal and I do not blame them for it but it isn't for me. More fun anyway to turn heads when they see some character they rarely see do really well. Would've rather they kept playing their favorite char and then switched to a counter pick if needed.

At the end of the day it becomes me seeing these top tier char mirror matches, especially Metaknight in regards to Brawl, that seem to bore me. When I saw that ZSS face that Metaknight in that one popular Brawl finals obviously the crowd favorite was the underdog ZSS. That is an isolated incident but I view this way in most matches not just finals be it my own or others in any game. I understand the thought of "I loved him before the game was out and before he was known to be broken" and do not blame them for that or picking a char because they can win a tournament regardless that your old favorite isn't as good as you'd like competitively, but I cannot really enjoy watching them, I rather watch said underdogs beat them and not just in finals. If Ness had been broken in Smash 4 I would be conflicted since I played him since N64, I may still play him but I would stick to a secondary or others I really liked as well for the most part.

Again, that is just me and I do not expect anyone to feel the same as me.

Edit: Damn, BG been acting up for me the past few hours, thought I saw another post after my last one so I accidentally double posted -_-

[Ratatapa]

First version update available in e-shop in case you want to get it before congestion tonight

I wonder if they fixed the giant yoshi bug

[Guitarman]

Is Palutena really that bad?

Seems like she is a solid counter to some characters.