Pope on gays: "Who am I to judge?"

[ringthree]

So, the Popester gave a pretty candid interview and this is the result:

The pontiff broached the delicate question of how he would respond to learning that a cleric in his ranks was gay, though not sexually active. For decades, the Vatican has regarded homosexuality as a "disorder," and Pope Francis' predecessor Pope Benedict XVI formally barred men with what the Vatican deemed "deep-seated" homosexuality from entering the priesthood.
"Who am I to judge a gay person of goodwill who seeks the Lord?" the pontiff said, speaking in Italian. "You can't marginalize these people."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3669635.html

I am not so fooled to think this is an open acceptance of gay people, but it's way better than the last Pope. This doesn't change doctrine, I believe, but I like this Pope way better than Darth Sidious.

[Kuya]

Well, it's something, i guess.

[Blubbartron]

Don't forget that this is the same pope that made it a crime to expose the rampant child rape in the church.

[ringthree]

Well, it's something, i guess.

As has been discussed here before, the Catholic church can be rather progressive at times. I don't think this is going to turn into some kind of declaration of doctrine, but it is a signal to the church and the bureaucracy as to the direction he is headed.

Sometimes making a conservative institution less conservative is a greater victory than making liberals more liberal.

As for hiding abuses, yeah, the entire church from top to bottom has no excuse.

[Ksandra]

Vatican has regarded homosexuality as a "disorder,"

Just as a note, this is incorrect. Though I don't nearly blame anyone for getting that impression.

The catechism states that homosexuality is not a sin, but homosexual acts (sex) is.

Some may think this is splitting hairs, but this difference is actually one of the major reasons why I am always spouting that the church should actually support gay marriage, and their attitudes towards gay is insanely wrong. To give a brief but not nearly complete reason to that conclusion: straight sex is also a sin. The only difference is, that it doesn't become a sin if married (and even then you could technically sin in marriage for being unchaste).

It's the same damn thing, and once the average catholic starts treating gays the same way they treat those that have sex before marriage (aka, don't give a shit), then I think we're going to start being in a good place.


Catechism notes:

The various forms of chastity

2348 All the baptized are called to chastity. The Christian has "put on Christ,"135 the model for all chastity. All Christ's faithful are called to lead a chaste life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.

2349 "People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single."136 Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in continence:

There are three forms of the virtue of chastity: the first is that of spouses, the second that of widows, and the third that of virgins. We do not praise any one of them to the exclusion of the others. . . . This is what makes for the richness of the discipline of the Church.137

2350 Those who are engaged to marry are called to live chastity in continence. They should see in this time of testing a discovery of mutual respect, an apprenticeship in fidelity, and the hope of receiving one another from God. They should reserve for marriage the expressions of affection that belong to married love. They will help each other grow in chastity.

Offenses against chastity

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

2355 Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. The one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.140 Prostitution is a social scourge. It usually involves women, but also men, children, and adolescents (The latter two cases involve the added sin of scandal.). While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure.

2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Now, obviously, I know some of the wording is going to piss some people off. Keep in mind the church has pretty much always been the idea of having ten million babies, so it sort of fits in that framework where homosexual sex cannot produce children. I think gay church marriage will never happen in my lifetime. But federal marriage is another matter, because it can help homosexuals follow all those ideas of chastity described in the marriage section.


[edit] As well, ring3 brings out a major point. The Church is a lot more progressive than some other Christian sects, but they are still slow as shit. This is actually pretty huge, and I am so glad things are going in this direction.


Now if only they would let priests marry again.

[ronin sparthos]

This is gonna get walked back or corrected just like the commentary on atheists.

Francis really is doing a great PR job wih the church though. Benedict is going to be sandwiched between two well loved popes remembered for child molestation cases and quitting. Sucks.

[Ksandra]

I read an article recently about how there's a movement (no idea how true this is btw) from the more evangelical sects to atheism and the more conservative sects.The reason being is that evangelical sects tend to have very old-fashioned thinking but try to balance it out with coffee tables and rock music in the church. Which younger people find to be a bunch of bs.

IF this is true, and the Pope knows this, it could be a reason why he's saying this stuff, because this is exactly what younger religious people (I think anyway) are looking for. A way to be religious, scientific, and nonjudgmental to their friends.

[ringthree]

This is gonna get walked back or corrected just like the commentary on atheists.

Francis really is doing a great PR job wih the church though. Benedict is going to be sandwiched between two well loved popes remembered for child molestation cases and quitting. Sucks.

Even if it is walked back, it's a signal. Since the Pope can't just dictate laws and even stuff in his own church as easily as in centuries past, he has to do things that he thinks are right within the bounds of his position.

As for the evangelicals, the Pope has blamed the Church internally for failing at preventing conversions. The Catholic church is a weird institution inherently incredibly religiously conservative without necessarily believing that conservatism must transfer over to social issues. He definitely is more like JP an less like the creepy one.

[Waraji]

This is gonna get walked back or corrected just like the commentary on atheists.

This. What I immediately thought to myself. For every good comment the pope makes, there is a back-pedal by the church on the subject. This thing is further emphasizing how little power figures of religious/political groups have over the masses. Obama: "Yes we can!", Congress/House: "Over Our Dead Bodies!"

[Hyan]

I think its pretty much bs how the church can change their views depending on what makes them more popular.

Vatican should keep being old-fashioned and dense so that people could see the stupidity of the religion and resign.

Here our interior minister says some stupid shit once in a while (first was "being gay is wrong" and the second was "abortion is wrong"), as the result like 10% of religious Finns resigned from the church in a matter of weeks.

[ringthree]

I think its pretty much bs how the church can change their views depending on what makes them more popular.

Vatican should keep being old-fashioned and dense so that people could see the stupidity of the religion and resign.

Here our interior minister says some stupid shit once in a while (first was "being gay is wrong" and the second was "abortion is wrong"), as the result like 10% of religious Finns resigned from the church in a matter of weeks.

This is kinda ranty, and when it comes to the Catholic church not really factual.

[ronin sparthos]

Even if it is walked back, it's a signal. Since the Pope can't just dictate laws and even stuff in his own church as easily as in centuries past, he has to do things that he thinks are right within the bounds of his position.

As for the evangelicals, the Pope has blamed the Church internally for failing at preventing conversions. The Catholic church is a weird institution inherently incredibly religiously conservative without necessarily believing that conservatism must transfer over to social issues. He definitely is more like JP an less like the creepy one.

A signal of what?

The desire of the Church to appeal to the changing demographics of Westerners who are shifting decidedly on the topic of LBGT rights?
A personal interpretation of scripture according to Francis himself?
PR spin to revitalize the Church in the wake of child molestation revelations?
A schism within the Church order?
All of the above?

Francis is definitely trying to shake things up within his organization but the "why" is what intrigues me. It's obvious the Church has taken a beating with regards to popularity among Western audiences and young people have been demoralized by an organization that isn't in the same century they reside in but are these steps towards legitimate reforms or just PR spin designed to move beyond an internal crisis?

Considering the glacial pace at which the Church moves with regards to changing stances, it's not unreasonable to be skeptical about anything coming out of their sources.

[Ksandra]

The desire of the Church to appeal to the changing demographics of Westerners who are shifting decidedly on the topic of LBGT rights?
A personal interpretation of scripture according to Francis himself?
PR spin to revitalize the Church in the wake of child molestation revelations?
A schism within the Church order?
All of the above?

Did you read my first post? What he says is not new to the church. The problem is the way others have twisted it.

As well, it should be noted he is a Jesuit.

[Hyan]

This is kinda ranty, and when it comes to the Catholic church not really factual.

Really, if a religious movement claims to be following the Bible and isn't old-fashioned, dense and completely conservative (like the Bible), they're lying to themselves.

Times change; the Bible doesn't. Christians should just keep waiting for the new, updated orders from God and deal with it. Instead of ignoring half of the book and only picking the bits that give them more sheep to take advantage of at any given time.

[Ksandra]

I think its pretty much bs how the church can change their views depending on what makes them more popular.

Read the full article, then read the catecism parts I posted, and tell me exactly how he has changed what the catechism has already stated.

[edit] this article basically talks about what I was saying above:

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...l10231474&lite

[Kuya]

Rather than whether this signifies real change in Catholicism or not, the real importance this news has, in my opinion, is how it might marginally help LGBT activism in the long run.

Discussion over whether the church is changing or not seems downright irrelevant to a non believer.

[ronin sparthos]

Discussion over whether the church is changing or not seems downright irrelevant to a non believer.

How the church sways determines the reactions of many secular/atheist organizations who are often at odds with the religious taking their marching orders from sources like the Vatican.

[ronin sparthos]

Did you read my first post? What he says is not new to the church. The problem is the way others have twisted it.

As well, it should be noted he is a Jesuit.

It's still an about face to the traditional outlook of his predecessors and other high ranking officials within the organization. Actual theology doesn't translate well to the ground level adherents so to hear the Pope is fine with chaste, homosexual priests is a big deal even if its always been buried somewhere in the rulebook Francis is familiar with. How many people have been beating down the doors with "Jesus said nothing about homosexuality!" only to be rebuffed with the same, tired OT passages?

I'm just intrigued with what Francis wants to accomplish. He's no Benedict but he's still limited by the inability to make major changes within the organization. He needs to maintain balance between traditionalists who have been bred to believe homosexuality is wrong (which justifies their discrimination) and the bleeding hearts who don't want to see LBGT individuals oppressed but need to reconcile their religious beliefs with doctrine.

Going too far in either direction has consequences for the organization.

[Ksandra]

Discussion over whether the church is changing or not seems downright irrelevant to a non believer.

In regards to LGBT rights, I agree. In regards to trying to come to terms with our differences, not so much.

[Kuya]

I mean, that for an atheist, the church getting friendlier with gay people is not gonna make you any less of an atheist.

The real value this news has lies in how it affects political strategizing for both LGBT and secular orgs.