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Thread: The crafting thread.     submit to reddit submit to twitter submit to tumblr

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelan? View Post
    A 50% bonus on top of Inner Quiet as bad as piece by piece?

    nigga you crazy

    Great Strides+Innovation+Byregot's is the shit

    Byregot's > Innovation/Careful II/Ingenuity II >Comfort Zone > Reclaim > Waste Not II / Piece by Piece
    I remember experimenting with innovation a few times and I looked at my control before and after use and it certainly wasn't a 50% boost from what I remember.

    I never went back to investigate more to see what was up tho.

    Also Comfort Zone should be your first action so you start getting returns immediately and if you use Innovation first and get a Good proc after you wont get full use of TotT because you haven't spent 20 CP, and you probably don't want to start synthing yet because your other buffs haven't been applied yet either.

    CZ -> IQ are always my first 2 actions, with TotT being 2nd if Good procs.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    I remember experimenting with innovation a few times and I looked at my control before and after use and it certainly wasn't a 50% boost from what I remember.

    I never went back to investigate more to see what was up tho.
    Same. I had a feeling it was just BASE (IE no Inner Quiet, possibly no gear?) Control +50% but I have nothing hard on that. Hence my indifference towards it. It felt like "+1 IQ stack for 3 turns" for what I believe is the same cost as IQ.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    Also Comfort Zone should be your first action so you start getting returns immediately and if you use Innovation first and get a Good proc after you wont get full use of TotT because you haven't spent 20 CP, and you probably don't want to start synthing yet because your other buffs haven't been applied yet either.
    His list was not his action order (because you can't start out a synth with Byregot's), but rather his order of What LV50 Ability Is Best.

  4. #204
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    Ah, yea I read it wrong, was getting ability names mixed up in my head.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fereydoon View Post
    I didn't think Ingenuity I was potent enough to overpower Innovation like that, sad.

    Currently 40 GSM, current route is open with Inner Quiet > TotT if applicable whenever I can > Steady Hand > Spam Hasty Touch > Master's Mend II or Manipulation, depending on synth, Manipulation for 40's, MMII for 80s > Rumination at the end to hopefully get enough CP to MMI or Manipulation again to finish the synth, otherwise throw in progresses throughout the synth. Where can I be improving?

    Using my highest touch on Rainbows obviously.
    Any room for improvement?

  6. #206
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    If you have Waste Not I sometimes prefer to do this at the start

    IQ > Waste Not > Steady > Hasty x3 > (whatever)

    It's somewhat annoying if you get Goods after popping Waste Not though. Otherwise what you're doing is more or less what I'd do. I generally go for progress after the first Steady wears off because I'm very forgetful about it. The "big change" to a crafting routine comes when/if you get Byregot's Blessing, imo. Then it's a balance between.

    -Do I just need a little more push to max quality (Byregot's)
    -How much has the RNG been screwing my Touch success (Rumination or fuckitByregot'sanyways)

  7. #207
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    Other than eventual Byregot's, biggest improvement I could see would be going to get Steady II. But uggggh CLN.

  8. #208
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    uggggh CUL*

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seravi Edalborez View Post
    If you have Waste Not I sometimes prefer to do this at the start

    IQ > Waste Not > Steady > Hasty x3 > (whatever)
    Use Steady Hand before Waste Not. Steady is 4.2 CP/turn, Waste Not is 14 CP/turn, so you don't want to burn a Waste Not turn activating Steady. Plus, if you use Steady > WN, you wind up with 4 turns with both active; the other way gives you 3 WN + 5 Steady.

  10. #210
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    I went over earlier why "wasting" a turn of Waste Not doesn't actually cause any waste if you do it right (and you concurred).

    Waste Not -> Steady hand is the perfect example of how to do it properly.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    uggggh CUL*
    I hate myself for wanting to type CUL first and somehow thinking I was wrong and typing CLN.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    I went over earlier why "wasting" a turn of Waste Not doesn't actually cause any waste if you do it right (and you concurred).

    Waste Not -> Steady hand is the perfect example of how to do it properly.
    Sure, if you want to lock yourself in to wasting any reds that pop.

    The reason why you use Steady first is that it allows you to activate any TotT procs without immediately killing your Waste Not efficiency. And if you don't get a red, then you're still good.

    Basically, Steady > Waste Not is 4.2 CP efficiency loss with 0 red proc and 11.6 CP efficiency gain with 1 red proc, while committing you to 1-2 standard turns worth of durability loss (15-20).
    Waste Not > Steady is no CP efficiency loss with 0 red proc, 1.8 CP efficiency gain (or, 20 CP efficiency loss) with 1 red proc, while committing you to 3 standard turns worth of durability loss (30-35).

    Furthermore, if you activate Waste Not first and get a red on the next turn (before Steady), you're screwed no matter what. You either throw a heap of CP in the trash or are forced to burn durability on non-Steadied Hasty Touches.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    Sure, if you want to lock yourself in to wasting any reds that pop.

    The reason why you use Steady first is that it allows you to activate any TotT procs without immediately killing your Waste Not efficiency. And if you don't get a red, then you're still good.

    Basically, Steady > Waste Not is 4.2 CP efficiency loss with 0 red proc and 11.6 CP efficiency gain with 1 red proc, while committing you to 1-2 standard turns worth of durability loss (15-20).
    Waste Not > Steady is no CP efficiency loss with 0 red proc, 1.8 CP efficiency gain (or, 20 CP efficiency loss) with 1 red proc, while committing you to 3 standard turns worth of durability loss (30-35).

    Furthermore, if you activate Waste Not first and get a red on the next turn (before Steady), you're screwed no matter what. You either throw a heap of CP in the trash or are forced to burn durability on non-Steadied Hasty Touches.
    gonna show my ignorance here, what is this "red" you're referring to?

  14. #214
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    Red is the glowball's color when condition is Good.

    I typically pop WN once and never again so I'm only concerned with getting the full efficiency (rather, using only 3/4 dura-lowering actions with it) out of it once. If I get a WN > Good I typically just do some Touch, Ingenuity, then work on Progress now instead of later. Speaking for */** at least.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    Sure, if you want to lock yourself in to wasting any reds that pop.

    The reason why you use Steady first is that it allows you to activate any TotT procs without immediately killing your Waste Not efficiency. And if you don't get a red, then you're still good.

    Basically, Steady > Waste Not is 4.2 CP efficiency loss with 0 red proc and 11.6 CP efficiency gain with 1 red proc, while committing you to 1-2 standard turns worth of durability loss (15-20).
    Waste Not > Steady is no CP efficiency loss with 0 red proc, 1.8 CP efficiency gain (or, 20 CP efficiency loss) with 1 red proc, while committing you to 3 standard turns worth of durability loss (30-35).

    Furthermore, if you activate Waste Not first and get a red on the next turn (before Steady), you're screwed no matter what. You either throw a heap of CP in the trash or are forced to burn durability on non-Steadied Hasty Touches.
    You're assuming you always want to activate TotT on Goods.

    Generally I use them for quality, especially when skills are active. If I get a good after activating Waste Not but before Steady I just use Basic (or standard, depending on the synth) for the higher success rate.

  16. #216
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    Given that I generally use Waste Not at the beginning of a synth (particularly on 40 durability synths), Inner Quiet hasn't pumped my control yet, so I don't think a +quality action on a Good is worth it. In the scenario you just outlined (Good proc after popping WN), you're essentially choosing to spend 38 CP on a 150% quality/70% success (or 52 CP/188% quality/80% success) synth with no control bonus from IQ. There's no way I'm taking that deal.

    My overall point is that Steady first allows more flexibility.

  17. #217
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    Got some new data for you guys regarding "Progress" from Synthesis actions. NOTE: I have had somewhat limited time, so this data is a little low on samples, which means for some parts of it I have not entirely nailed the formulas to my satisfaction. They should at least be generally accurate until I can improve on them though.

    Pulling from my findings on quality, I decided to start with the assumption that Progress is equal level synths (ie. the crafter level and synthesis level are the same) is a linear function. As with quality, I predicted the results is then multiplier by some modifier for any level difference. Unlike quality, there is some sort of boost at play for recipes below your level as well as a penalty, so I looked at both.

    What I've found so far is that for equal level synths, the progress equation best fits a linear model with the following formula:

    Code:
     y = 0.2097 * x + 1.6203
    R-squared = 0.9994 (base on 20 samples)
    On visual inspection though, using this exact formula did not coincide with 2 of my results, based on rounding (IE. the predicted progress was 20.513 but in game it was 20). When I modify the linear regression to the following, all the data points I found coincide with rounded expected values:

    Code:
     Base.Progress = 0.21 * (Craftsmanship) + 1.6
    Additional data points will be helpful to refine the formula (especially more data points between 150 and 275 craftsmanship), but I believe this is at least a good fit for now. It's difficult to get exact figures because the game rounds progress and we only have 2 digits to work with, but adding more samples at different crafting levels should help further.

    As far as the level difference multiplier, it appears to be a piecewise function with linear parts that are approximately as follows:

    Code:
    Level.Corrected.Progress = Base.Progress * (1 + Level.Correction.Factor)
    Level.Difference = Crafter.Level - Synth.Level
    
    For -5 <= Level.Difference <= 0,
      Level.Correction.Factor = 0.10 * Level.Difference
    For 0 < Level.Difference <= 5,
      Level.Correction.Factor = 0.05 * Level.Difference
    For 5 < Level.Difference <=15,
      Level.Correction.Factor = (0.022 * Level.Difference) + 0.15
    I am fairly confident that formulas for -5 to +5 level differences are accurate, but the area after +5 levels is sketchy and I'll need to get more data to refine the functions.

    After level 15, it levels off even more, reaching Level.Correction.Factor of 0.50 at +20 levels and eventually capping at about 0.55 at a point 25-30 levels below you. I did not test many recipes this far below because finishing them or HQing them is not challenging, though I suppose I could go back and test some more for the sake of completion.

    So, what does the piecewise correction factor mean in simple terms? Here's a summary:
    • For every level a recipe is above you, up to 5 above, you take a 10% penalty to progress.
    • For every level a recipe is below you, up to 5 below, you gain a 5% bonus to progress.
    • For every addition level greater than 5 level below you, you gain another 2-2.5% (needs refinement) bonus to progress, until 15 levels below you.
    • After 15 levels, it continues to gradually increase until around 55% bonus, but I did not get enough data to find a true formula.

    Coincidentally, this means that for level 55 recipes, Ingenuity II is a 130% bonus to progress, since it moves you from a 50% penalty (0.5 factor) to a 15% bonus (1.15 factor) and Ingenuity I is a 100% bonus (50% penalty to neutral). Both are also a 33% boost to quality gains, since in my last set of testing I found that quality has a 5% penalty per level for recipes above you but you do not get a bonus for being higher level than the synth (1/0.75 = 1.333).

    Again, let me know if anything seems way off and I'll check it out further. One thing I'm looking into doing is gradually adding crafting materia I to figure out some more specific cutoffs and reduce the effect of rounding, but that'll have to be a little while.

  18. #218
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    Innovation seems to apply the bonus to your base control. If innovation applied to your Inner Quiet gains, it would be on par with Bryegots. I only use it if I'm burning CP for a big Strides-Advanced Touch finisher with a ton of IQ procs and want that extra step in case I get a Good quality for it.

  19. #219
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    I usually want steady/waste to be synchronized, so I always use steady first

  20. #220
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    Hoooooleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssshhhiiiiiittttttttt son.

    Found the lvl 25 CUL level for chamomile tea, by a stroke of luck I happened to have a bunch of chamomile from when I was out doing BTN class quests (I just gathered a bunch on a hunch basically) and the other 2 ingredients I could get from NPCs.

    9 HQ tea for 3 turn-ins makes 75k (+~30k from making them) per leve, run upstairs, get leve again, repeat.

    This isn't gonna be so bad after all.