Going to make a healer for my second class - SCH or WHM?
Like it says above. Kind of on the fence about which to pick. I don't often play healers in MMOs, so the one which is easier to use is probably the one I'll go for.
I'd say SCH so you get SMN for free if you feel like changing to DPS later.
WHM is easier to heal with as they have regen and strong aoe but run into the issue of MP if you dont manage properly. They have a "Freecure" trait for a reason.
+Basically unlimited MP
+Succor is great for softening incoming AoEs
+Lustrate is a great non-GCD heal in a pinch that won't get reduced by Disease
+Fairy can solo-heal weaker stuff, allowing you to DD a bit
+Swiftcast battle Resurrection (WHM has this too but it's a more significant MP dent)
-No real good "oh shit" heals aside from Lustrate
-No "oh shit" group heals
-Fights with heavy DoT or positioning involved can heavily neuter the fairy's effectiveness
-No crowd control
-Can't cure debuffs until 40
+More potent heals and AoE heals
-Harder time managing MP
-??? (I haven't played much WHM; someone wanna expand?)
None really, the MP management is the big one. I've found enmity to be an issue with a less capable tank and/or party but I've not seen the SCH point of view on that.
On longer fights SCH can afford to throw in some offensive spells but WHM is often hard pushed since they need the MP which is a pity since Holy is a really good AoE ability (MP cost sucks though) and Stone II is about on par with BLMs Fire.
I guess you could say WHM only has 2 cross class abilities you will ever use (Swiftcast and Virus), everything else available to them I can't see a use for.
The Once and Future Wamoura
A reason a WHM wouldn't use Eye for Eye?
Hmm there are good points for both I see. Leaning towards SCH now because of the ability to change to SMN.
A related question - which class has hotbars which are easier to manage? I play an a controller and am still learning all the ins and outs of targeting, switching crossbars etc. Which class (job actually) has less buttons to press?
BG's most likeable Québécois
Originally Posted by Seravi Edalborez
WHM got shell
Managing Mp is not an issue once you get shroud of saints on whm. Use it when you are around 2500 mp (i have 4100 mp for reference) and then keep using on cooldown. Once you get to high HP tanks stoneskin + regen makes healing a breeze.
Professional opinion: level both, see which one you like better. Odds are, you will probably prefer playing SCH more than WHM for obvious reasons. With a game like this though, you are better off playing ALL classes/jobs to their fullest. It will make you the better player. I leveled Conjurer/WHM in 1.0 just to get it leveled, and did a couple of Primals on it just to fill in as healer a couple of times. I've yet to play it seriously in 2.0, although I did, like many others, jump on Arcanist/SCH/SMN right away.
Solo wise SMN was pretty lackluster, while SCH was a real blast to play in parties. I've seen SMN really shine as a standalone job DPS wise (not taking pet into account), but you gotta be on your shit. I intend to play both WHM & SCH to their fullest at one point, but I suggest leveling Conjurer first and then Arcanist.
I play SCH and not WHM, but if you are actively managing your pet, you need a lot of things at your disposal. Including the pet bar, I have four action bars on my screen (granted some of the actions are like chocobo mount, etc.). I'd have to think WHM is slightly less, if only because there's no pet bar. I haven't played on controller, but I'd also imagine that the mouse also gives you some advantage in being able to quickly place your pet and place your target areas for Shadow Flare or Sacred Soil.
Originally Posted by Berabouman
One thing that frustrates me to no end is why you can't issue commands to pet while your character is performing an action (you can't even move them with the Place command), but that's another conversation.
As far as the more general SCH vs WHM discussion, I think most people summed it up already. SCH is more of an anticipatory healer with the ability to prevent significant amounts of damage taken, and WHM is more of an "oh shit" healer. If your entire party takes a significant hit at once, it takes noticeably longer to recover everyone's HP to full while also keeping them all alive if you're on SCH (vs. WHM), and you really need to be on point while doing so. The two jobs are very complementary in 8 man groups, although there are also some situational merits in double SCH (full time Sacred Soil being the most notable).
Funnily enough I just posted about all this on my guild site. I tried to pull together the abilities so I could get my head around them. I am absolutely not 50 yet but I am a career healer from XI, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2 and Neverwinter so I like to think I have half a clue. At least from a starting viewpoint. I am on a fresh server and unlocked and played both.
Rough spreadsheet on abilities they get which seem relevant are here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...FE&output=html
Curing stuff (my initial impressions):
WHM v SCH is interesting. Ultimately there's plenty of room for both. At 50, they get a lot lot closer. When looking at SCH you must include their pet which for healing purposes is Eos. Although I'd really, really like to try using the other one in 8 mans because I think the buffs to spell speed and ability speed might be useful.
WHM seems your traditional 'if it's broken, I can fix it'. Gets AoE cures and the ability to remove bad stuff far earlier than SCH. Has direct access to higher tier Cures whereas SCH has to have their base cure buffed. WHM gets a single target regen and a better Stoneskin.
Both get access to stoneskin and 'an eye for an eye'.
SCH does things a little differently. Eos gives you an AoE regen very early.SCH can reduce STR, DEX, INT and MND of a mob by 15% as well as being able to reduce the amount of HP recovered if the mob cures itself or is cured by other mobs. SCH also gets some big buffs to spell casting time and potency. For anyone who has played FFXI, SCH is the one who gets the effect of Afflatus Solace on cures. I.e. a barrier which absorbs the same amount of damage as you've cured except when you crit you get even more. SCH also gets an ability which gives you a 20% chance to reduce damage taken by 10%. Complicated but possibly worth it. Later though they get an ability which reduces damage taken by 10% in an area of effect. You also get abilities from your pet. So SCH doesn't get Proshell which WHM does, instead its fairy can put a magic defense buff on everyone in the party. SCH also later gets an instant heal which restores 20% of target's health.
Having played both so far (absolutely not an expert) SCH is far, far busier because the tools you have require more work but WHM is the better/easier healer. On trash, I feel that SCH is far more helpful. AoE regen keeps everyone topped up, SCH can drop a ton of effective DoTs and some of the other things SCH can do, help a lot. SCH also has far better MP management tools. It's very hard to run out of MP on SCH because of Etherflow and Energy Drain. MP is more of a problem for WHM.
I think that in the 40-50 phase, SCH will catch up a lot but in the 30-35 range WHM is better.
What I like is that SCH and WHM will obviously be able to complement each other in larger fights at endgame. WHM can power cure, SCH can push up cure potency, regens and reduce the damage taken by the group in several ways.
What I've found so far is I like SCH more because it keeps me busier but right now it can't do things as easily as WHM.
Virus/Fever is very short duration (12 seconds, on a 90 second recast) and needs to be used very pointedly to make a noticeable difference. Miasma is pretty situational, most bosses don't cure themselves. Fey Covenant (the magic defense) is 20 seconds on a 120 second recast, so 1/6 of the time at best vs full time with WHM (but again, they do stack). I think it's only 5% more than Proshell (Covenant is 20%, I think Proshell is 15%).
I like being on SCH a lot, but there are two times where it becomes difficult to control. Fairy dying is the most obvious one - when the fairy goes down, you have to bring her back ASAP, but you also need to keep people alive, which is a difficult cycle to break since the fairy is a strong contribution to the overall healing (even with Swiftcast, you still need to break your cure cycle for a moment to hit your abilities and reposition the fairy). The other one I mentioned above is when your entire party takes large AoE damage. It takes spontaneous spell selection and fast finger work with some combination of Succor, single target cures, Rouse, and Fey Illumination (assuming Eos) to quickly get people back to full health, whereas a white mage can more quickly recover with Divine Seal and Medica II/Cure III.
One thing to all potential SCH - do not start doing endgame at 50 without Swiftcast. Instant resummoning and battle raising are absolute necessities.
Yeah, I'm working on THM (20 so far) right now to get Swiftcast asap. It's just too useful.
DISLAMER: this is all opinion based on MY play experience.
Originally Posted by Seravi Edalborez
I have both at 50 and play both, so things i've noticed[using above post as base], i took out a few of the comments and changed others to match my play experience. As is right now I chose to play WHM on harder content, though imho whm+sch is the ideal situation for 8man heal combo:
Firstly a note on this as it's innacurate:
+Swiftcast battle Resurrection (WHM has this too but it's a more significant MP dent) -> this is identical on both classes, the MP dent is the same.
+Succor is great for softening incoming AoEs
+Lustrate is a lesser version of Bene, but can be used on multiple characters at the cost of abilities, more flexibility lesser heal, more often, imho better option then bene since the CD is entirely atherflow based.
+Sacred soil is great for softening big attacks that will require a top off, as well as reducing damage on melee.
+Eos Fairy can top off the party very well
+Selene fairy can give extra Damage to DD in a case where it is needed, while still topping off and helping heal.
+Adloquium in whm + sch setups is amazing on the main tank, since the extra 'shield' allows regen to tick the tank.
+Ado and Succor are able to 'overheal' and add extra hp to squishies that are expected to take more damage (dd tanking adds, or aoe)
-ohshi heals include Lustrate and swiftcast+Aloquium
-No "oh shit" group heals
-Requires effectively controlling fairy to be great (too many sch don't do this), this is a LOT of extra work
-No crowd control
-pet has a tendency to die in some fights.
-atherflow dependance for best abilities, sometimes puts you in bad situations.
+ More potent heals(cure II, and Divine seal)
+ Regen is amazing.
+ medica 2 -> best AoE top off skill, especially great in WHM+SCH 2heal combo.
+ Has single target Sleep for CC.
+ (benediction) - ohshi emergency heal button w/ no cd and no hate.
+ threat reduction from Shroud.
+multiple WHMs stack their hots.
+Stone 2 is amazing damage in cstance, and Aero can be tossed in to help out (in non-mp heavy fights) in healing lulls.
- Much Harder time managing MP, overhealing is a much bigger mistake to make because of this.
- On 'easier'(AK) content learning to switch between cleric stance at the right time can be a pain.
- higher overall enmity.
- no real way to reduce damage on squishy targets in the nick of time aside from swift+stone.
important cross class that hasn't been mentioned: anti-interupt from BLM. This is amazing for Post-2HR Aoe heal (like ifrit) where you would be interupted instead, medica 2 cast can start as soon as he lands and give you an extra aoe medica before people disperse. (WHM)
I think Miasma/II is worth an honorable mention for SCH CC ability.
For instance running the Palace, landing Miasma on the Flan boss as he's about to lock-on to a random party member essentially makes him harmless, by the time it wears his hate should be back to normal. Likewise it's also useful for the tonberry king if you're using the ignore adds kiting strategy.
Miasma II can make a cluster of boss adds a lot less dangerous real quick, slowing them down not only makes them easier to avoid but also easier for your DDs to AoE down since they're less likely to go running off and spread out.
It's quite a bit more specialized but can still be incredibly useful in certain situations.
What is this shell you guys speak of?
Protect for WHM (def+mdef)?
Whm has a trait that adds the shell effect to protect.
Whm trait adds magic protection to casting protect.
Anywho, I just hit level 50 scholar today, so i dont have experience with the harder fights yet but based on dungeon runs I feel like scholars compliment paladin tanks very good.
Some problem areas I noticed for myself were in the aurum vale and the dependency scholars have on their fairy. The first ochu boss always gives me problems because my fairy dies and trying to keep everyone's hp up is quite hard. The fight was actually a lot easier when the monk died, and I only had myself and 2 others to watch. Succor is good but the potency is quite shitty and this is where a whm with medica shines.
All in all, I'd imagine having 1 sch and 1 whm in a party is an ideal setup because they cover each others weaknesses.
It's also really annoying as SCH when there isn't a WHM. Because if someone still has Proshell from another group or something you can't overwrite it with Protect. And most people don't seem to realize you can right click the buff to remove it so I can put it back on instead of having it wear when you're about to eat 3k+. This is more for primals than say AK because speedrun sacpulls are a thing.
Originally Posted by Amiricle
1 WHM, 1 SCH is great (from the SCH perspective at least). SCH plays more of a cushioner role with Succor, Adlo, and whatever else. Typically has a little more spare time not-curebombing to apply DoTs as well, at least in 8man. I imagine 2 WHMs is workable or just as good. I would hesitate to take 2 SCH if I had the choice, especially in AoE-rape fights. If Adlo shield buff stacked per caster as regen/DoT effects did we might have something here, otherwise all we're really getting from this pairing is 1 of each fairy and maybe perma-Sacred Soil.