Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Fake]

While it sounds great, Ochain pld damage mitigation has never been an issue. Losing the status effect block alone negates any extra (and completely irrelevant) PDT gained.

The situations where pld is actually used is:

AA TT (if you take a pld ochain has an obvious advantage, any time you're in melee range ochain will block petrifty/paralyze from amon drive, when you're out of range you don't block anyway)
AA EV (you'll spend a shitload of time stunned and not blocking if you don't use ochain, none of its moves are bad except arrogance which shield has no bearing on, can also dispel reprisal)
AA MR (priwen probably has some benefit here for the first 75% but its so negligible why create a situation where pld needs x amount of haste to even see it)
AA GK (priwen wins if you actually use pld/rng, but you should be using 3 DD/nin and killing it a lot faster)
AA HM (some legitimate benefit from extra PDT, but again negligible due to survivability of pld not being an issue)
Nexus (magic damage primarily, hate gets so screwed up that maintaining perfect haste buffs on pld isn't primary concern)
Marjami (T1-3 do negligible physical damage regardless, T4 you tank with back to it, T5 you are better with Aegis below 50% and above its not dangerous)
Kamihr (Nothing dangerous from PDT perspective, Aegis on boss)
Ouryu (Negligible physical damage outside of flail, full dispel obviously makes priwen unviable)

Looking at the few areas pld is actually applicable, your limiting factor isn't raw PDT. If you don't have ochain then obviously priwen is the next best thing, but I can't see any justification for it if you do.

[Darkmagi]

The gear doesn't mean the player is good or bad. Common misconception since gaming existed. We all know this.

No amount of DT or HP+ is going to save you from a 3k Meteor from someone who failed to stun lahar, then that meteor. (except aegis, and/or a smart whm who sacro's, (yeah right)).

All you can do is stand there with your dick in your hand, in your dt set, and wait to die. While the whm has his dick in his hand.

Can't build tp while weakened if the spikes are up either, so no shoulder tackling. Pick up whms aren't good enough to cover your ass while you beat yourself to death on flame spikes, and the same guy would couldn't stun it sure as hell isn't going to dispel the spikes.

It's obviously a completely different game we all play here, you guys all have the best pick-up parties in the universe, with legit players and epic timing, no scrubs etc.

It doesn't matter how good you (I am) are, all it takes is one guy to fuck it up. So you replace him? With another fuck up, good job! replace him, joy another fuck up, ad-infinitium.

You're already banned because you're terrible, but 3k meteor with DT on?lolyou. you can 100% survive tojil meteor weakened even with proper sets and capped hp.

[dasva]

While it sounds great, Ochain pld damage mitigation has never been an issue. Losing the status effect block alone negates any extra (and completely irrelevant) pdt gained

While I agree the blocking all the status is primary your argument seems predicated on chosing between more dt and capped block rate. But as martels testing has shown it may be possible to get 100% block rate with priwen on the highest level non nms in the game that are peobably highest level mobs in game outside of VD battles probably. Assuming it does triple block rate under reprisal you shoudl cap block rate on anything anything ochain can get anywhere near the cap without reprisal on. In which case it's choosing better dt and phalanx over extra the mp thing on ochain. Now obviously as you stated any mob with even semi frequent dispels of any kind it will be a bad idea. Even if they miss the reprisal a ill timed dispel of haste or march would still hurt. But on other things it could have potential.

And of course the higher dt you get the more likely some of phalanx will go to waste which may limit priwens usefulness some. So sure you might not "need" that extra pdt indeed it might even do nothing but that doesn't mean you can't find a way to use it. If nothing else maybe allow yourself to gear more ddish combined with the extra spikes you might get another 5% dmg in!!! Heck maybe I can use my awesomely augmented kaiser schaller again

[Fake]

Any time reprisal is down its noticeably worse, far more than the difference between the two with reprisal up. My personal experience is that most high functioning groups usually feature substantial multi boxing, brd being the most obvious nomination, this usually leads to pld being at the bottom of the pecking order for songs (rightly so). Less accomplished groups are also likely to see significant downtime in buffs because most players are just plain bad.

Priwen demands a higher level of support which seems like the opposite direction you'd be aiming for when using pld.

[Toth]

Hello, everyone.

Rest assured that the development team has not forgotten about pets, nor are they ignoring your feedback. Everything is being taken in and considered for adjustments.

The first adjustment that they are planning, as we mentioned previously, is the addition of food that will affect both the master and the pet. Amongst this new food, there will be accuracy enhancing food, much like sushi, that will increase the accuracy for both the master and the pet. These new foods will be added in the next version update.

Also, due to the fact that pets cannot receive enhancements from songs and such, the development team is planning to make the effect received from food higher for pets than what the player receives.

Before any further adjustments are made, we’d like to start by implementing this first and monitoring the situation for a while. After the version update is live, please be sure to try out the food and let us know your feedback.

This could be a huge boon for PUPs if true. My automaton still can't hit VD AAs for anything worthwhile

[Podginator]

This could be a huge boon for PUPs if true. My automaton still can't hit VD AAs for anything worthwhile

That addressed one of my major concerns for that announcement, at least we get master acc too.

I'd really like they to get a defensive boon, too, though.

[Martel]

Any time reprisal is down its noticeably worse, far more than the difference between the two with reprisal up. My personal experience is that most high functioning groups usually feature substantial multi boxing, brd being the most obvious nomination, this usually leads to pld being at the bottom of the pecking order for songs (rightly so). Less accomplished groups are also likely to see significant downtime in buffs because most players are just plain bad.

Priwen demands a higher level of support which seems like the opposite direction you'd be aiming for when using pld.

For those who do have Ochain, there's the option of swapping back to Ochain should reprisal/marches go down. This is, of course, accompanied by the usual annoyances involved in swapping shields. Loss of TP, and wiping aftermath. But then, both of those only affect PLD DPS. And well.... PLD dps. ; ; It shouldn't be difficult at all to automate the shield swaps in gearswap, including a control toggle for when you don't want to lose TP. Linking the shield change to a buffchange rule would make swapping shields after gaining, or losing reprisal near instant. Would be hard for a single mob to slip anything in that gap. Hordes of mobs, perhaps, might manage it.

Hmmm. Perhaps a request should be made to SE, to remove the TP/aftermath penalty on changing shields. For weapons, and sub weapons, this has always made sense. But shields? There's really not any need for that. And it's not like it'd be a coding challenge. Ammo and Instruments are already exempt when switching to another item of the same class...

Still, the viability of this hinges on if additional shield skill+ will cap Priwen block rate with Reprisal up. Other wise you've got that chance to get one shotted by an unblocked hit. And status could possibly get though.

[FaeQueenCory]

Hmmm. Perhaps a request should be made to SE, to remove the TP/aftermath penalty on changing shields. For weapons, and sub weapons, this has always made sense. But shields? There's really not any need for that. And it's not like it'd be a coding challenge. Ammo and Instruments are already exempt when switching to another item of the same class...

It's probably just a if;then code... Or at least that's what I would have done... And since as you pointed out, it already works that way for ammos... No reason it couldn't be copypasted into the sub category.

Also, in regard to Priwen's usefulness: looks like it's going to be a LOT better in May... Cause Reprisal's cap is turning into HPx2....
And als0: why has no one pointed out the very derp obvious? Ochain + reprisal >> Priwen + reprisal
Because if Reprisal using Priwen can easily cap block rate... Wouldn't then Ochain's stupidhigh natural block rate be pushed to the absolute 100% just like Priwen's under Reprisal?
Basically: sure Priwen is great and it's a good "I don't have Ochain" shield... But... Won't Ochain and Aegis ALWAYS be the top just due to their "overcapping" nature?

[dasva]

And als0: why has no one pointed out the very derp obvious? Ochain + reprisal >> Priwen + reprisal
Because if Reprisal using Priwen can easily cap block rate... Wouldn't then Ochain's stupidhigh natural block rate be pushed to the absolute 100% just like Priwen's under Reprisal?
Basically: sure Priwen is great and it's a good "I don't have Ochain" shield... But... Won't Ochain and Aegis ALWAYS be the top just due to their "overcapping" nature?

Sounds like you are referring to the very old theory that certain shield types had block rates that could never be overcome outside of aegis/ochain. That no longer seems to be the case if ot ever was. Previous tests may just not have been good enough. Pretty sure martel has shown 100% block rate on lower level studf with killedar. So if they are all blocking 100% the highest block dmg would win which would priwen I think though aegis is rely high too. But then aegis blockrate against high level stuff is horrible. But you bring aegis for other reasons

As far as the support comment I believe we are all aware that without support priwen is meh. Of course without proper support so are all your dds. And I suppose you could assume a multi box brd that can only march the dds but that's not really a problem with priwen but your group. More a matter of knowing how to work with what you got than this is just not good

[Martel]

I
And als0: why has no one pointed out the very derp obvious? Ochain + reprisal >> Priwen + reprisal
Because if Reprisal using Priwen can easily cap block rate... Wouldn't then Ochain's stupidhigh natural block rate be pushed to the absolute 100% just like Priwen's under Reprisal?
Basically: sure Priwen is great and it's a good "I don't have Ochain" shield... But... Won't Ochain and Aegis ALWAYS be the top just due to their "overcapping" nature?

Because Priwen has 22% MORE dmg reduction on block. Priwen at 100% block rate is waaaay stronger than Ochain is at the same 100% block rate.

Ochain, -66% dmg reduction on block.
Priwen, -88% dmg reduction on block.

So, sure, Ochain caps easier. But when both are capping, Priwen reduces far more dmg.

Actually, Priwen doesn't even need capped block rate to achieve higher overall dmg reduction. At 75% block rate it matches 100% block rate Ochain. Btw, reprisal up Priwen had 85% block rate on lvl 126 mobs(and 98% rate on 109 mobs). With just base skill+merits. I still need to test with some skill+ and see if I can cap.

[shepardG]

Any time reprisal is down its noticeably worse, far more than the difference between the two with reprisal up. My personal experience is that most high functioning groups usually feature substantial multi boxing, brd being the most obvious nomination, this usually leads to pld being at the bottom of the pecking order for songs (rightly so). Less accomplished groups are also likely to see significant downtime in buffs because most players are just plain bad.

Priwen demands a higher level of support which seems like the opposite direction you'd be aiming for when using pld.

Initially I didnt agree with you, but then you said this and I definitely agree with you.
@byrt yeah i am not a smart man, I really dont have anything else to get with those plates, and having a burtain (soon) and a 99 aegis/ochain/ragnarok/excal would sorta be my thing. Its really just the "gotta catch em all" thing. (I really dont enjoy playing bard, its lvl 78 I yhink, and I got no room to really add in another jobs gear)

[shepardG]

Whats the lowest recap you can get on reprisal with and without songs?

[dasva]

Whats the lowest recap you can get on reprisal with and without songs?

I'll assume by no songs that means no embrava too. Pld gets very little fast cast gear sadly Kinda depends on subjob but assuming you don't do something like /rdm or /sch withwithout fast cast roll off the top of my head (can't get to a comp right now) probably around 50 sec with capped magic/gear haste. With just capped gear haste and haste spell probably around 90-100 sec. If you went /rdm with perfect fast cast/haste and +duration set you might be able to full time it with just haste buff.

[Tarage]

This could be a huge boon for PUPs if true. My automaton still can't hit VD AAs for anything worthwhile

Now I'm going to have to start caring about food again...

[Lyramion]

As someone who doesn't play PLD: What's needed to keep Reprisal up full time ? Is it possible? PLD fastcast sets ?

[FaeQueenCory]

Sounds like you are referring to the very old theory that certain shield types had block rates that could never be overcome outside of aegis/ochain. That no longer seems to be the case if ot ever was. Previous tests may just not have been good enough. Pretty sure martel has shown 100% block rate on lower level studf with killedar. So if they are all blocking 100% the highest block dmg would win which would priwen I think though aegis is rely high too. But then aegis blockrate against high level stuff is horrible. But you bring aegis for other reasons

As far as the support comment I believe we are all aware that without support priwen is meh. Of course without proper support so are all your dds. And I suppose you could assume a multi box brd that can only march the dds but that's not really a problem with priwen but your group. More a matter of knowing how to work with what you got than this is just not good

I was just using Aegis for the overcapping mechanic it has. Not the block rate.
And I was more referring to the fact that shield skill can't get so high as to provide a 100% block rate. (which even now is still true.)
However, I'm not really all that surprised that iLv shields can get close to 100%... Because of all that shield skill bonus they provide translates into a huge blocking increase than what they would normally have of that shield type.

Because Priwen has 22% MORE dmg reduction on block. Priwen at 100% block rate is waaaay stronger than Ochain is at the same 100% block rate.

Ochain, -66% dmg reduction on block.
Priwen, -88% dmg reduction on block.

So, sure, Ochain caps easier. But when both are capping, Priwen reduces far more dmg.

Actually, Priwen doesn't even need capped block rate to achieve higher overall dmg reduction. At 75% block rate it matches 100% block rate Ochain. Btw, reprisal up Priwen had 85% block rate on lvl 126 mobs(and 98% rate on 109 mobs). With just base skill+merits. I still need to test with some skill+ and see if I can cap.

The bold is what I as after with my questioning. A direct hard comparison.
Though your other statements make me wonder something else: DT is still capped at -87.5%... And doesn't block reduction contribute to this cap? SO if a PLD has capped PDT... won't the block reduction not really be a thing that's different? (cause even -66% is more than -37.5%)
Of course I'm not 100% sure if it contributes to the total damage taken reduction... but iirc I think it does.
SO... would the block reduction.... just kinda free you up for less PDT gear? (not that Ochain doesn't already if I am remembering correctly.)

This has been very helpful... I already love the model and wish it had been used for something useable... I think I might just have to go in for this.... (all my free space! lol)

[Martel]

Block damage reduction is a completely different term than PDT. This becomes instantly obvious is you watch a few blocked hits with 0% PDT, then equip 68% PDT, and watch the DMG get much lower.

So, the maximum dmg reduction for a PLD goes like this. base dmg * block dmg- * pdt

so lets say, a 300 base dmg hit.

300*0.22=66
66*0.32=21

21 dmg left from a 300 dmg hit. The rest of which would get eaten by phalanx.

This comes to a total of -93% dmg reduction(before phalanx)

[Kyte]

As someone who doesn't play PLD: What's needed to keep Reprisal up full time ? Is it possible? PLD fastcast sets ?

I can get pretty close to fulltiming it with /SCH, Haste, and Marches, and I'm definitely missing some fast cast stuff.

Is Palisade's blockrate increase known?

[dasva]

I was just using Aegis for the overcapping mechanic it has. Not the block rate.
And I was more referring to the fact that shield skill can't get so high as to provide a 100% block rate. (which even now is still true.)
However, I'm not really all that surprised that iLv shields can get close to 100%... Because of all that shield skill bonus they provide translates into a huge blocking increase than what they would normally have of that shield type.
)

I'm not sure that has been conclusively proven or how reprisal factors in. I picked out aegis since you suggested it still be preferable because of this so called overcapping but it's blockrate is so horribad you wont see it so it doesn't matter.

[dasva]

I can get pretty close to fulltiming it with /SCH, Haste, and Marches, and I'm definitely missing some fast cast stuff.

Is Palisade's blockrate increase known?

Was it wearing off early or were the marches gimped? Because just capped magic/gear haste alone with no fast cast or arts or anything will get it under a minute