Learning Japanese, recommend some anime/shows

[Totien]

Hello BG.

I've begun doing something I've always wanted to do lately. I've been learning Japanese. Always spoke a little thanks to FFXI and karate, but never really LEARNED the language until recently.

I'm hoping some good anime or shows would help my retention, so I'm wanting some title recommendations. Right now I'm watching the original dub of BDz in English. Only other anime I'm familiar with is the OG Adult Swim stuff, which I liked.

Lastly, is this stuff available on torrents?

[Correction]

No one show is going to reinforce good conversational habits, and I often find better, proper spoken Japanese in J-Dramas than animated shows. I think we used to have a thread on j-dramas but it's ancient history by now.

[Yugl]

Do not use anime to supplement classes/learn JP. Many try to do this and they end up fucking up simple stuff or having weird grammatical issues because they hear anime statements without understanding certain slang or conjugations. TV shows can be fine if they're drama shows since they tend to have "normalized" dialogue. Music tracks are tricky because they're technically less true to standard grammar/syntax than anime, but when you sift through these issues, they become more valuable learning tools because you can repeat them, they require significant memorization (unlike anime), and they're good for remembering terms (If you need to remember the word for X, you can think of the track that states X and just pretend you're listening to that track).

That said, if you're just starting to learn JP, do not bother with these. Learn the language from scratch and pick these up when you're roughly 2 yrs into the learning process because they'll confuse more than they help before then. The best way to supplement JP lessons is to use online resources (This is especially true if they're using the standard Genki book, which tends to teach terms outside of their grammatical derivation).

[tancients]

Going to third what is being said. Better off reading books with inline furigana than anime, too. I'll have to dig around if you're interested, but there are some Japanese resources in English for learning Japanese that a lot of people refer to when I ask for some materials for people who know no Japanese. Tokyo newspaper or radio or something?

Years ago I learned using some elementary school resources, basically starting by using the language as a standalone, which made it harder to step into translating roles later on. Sadly those resources don't seem to be available anymore.

[Ayn]

There are some decent flash card like apps on the iPhone/iPad too. I'll dig around and see what they were.

[Tajin]

I prefer reading over video when it comes to learning a foreign language.

[Totien]

Tokyo radio and flash card apps sound most appealing so far. I don't know about newspapers or anything because I'm still in the auditory phase of learning. I've spoke a bit for a long time, but most of what I know are terms for punching kicking and blocking. Good points about the anime being too slangy to learn. That brings me to dialects tho. I want to make sure I speak and understand Okinawan Japanese, but I'm sure that's not what I'm learning. :/

[Abandon]

oh lord, okinawan JP? Why? I'm here now, what do you want with these people?

[Yugl]

I'm not really familiar with Okinawan dialect (Did you mean Kansaiben? Nvm...), but formal education will definitely teach you Tokyo style since that's the standard. Unless you're trying to translate ancient text (Like shit well before the Tokugawa period; think Kyoto capital), I wouldn't recommend varied accents. Many of them will fuck up your conjugation.

Just checked a bit of Okinawan dialect via wikibook and I would highly recommend you stay away from that. That shit is like wayyyy to the side. You would think the difference is simply conjugation, but they're definitely completely different terms.

[Seha]

I prefer reading over video when it comes to learning a foreign language.

Listening is extremely important if you ever want to talk to someone in that language. You might know how to read, but if your ears aren't used to the sounds you will have a very hard time understanding others even if you know the language.

[Viq]

I'm not really familiar with Okinawan dialect (Did you mean Kansaiben? Nvm...), but formal education will definitely teach you Tokyo style since that's the standard. Unless you're trying to translate ancient text (Like shit well before the Tokugawa period; think Kyoto capital), I wouldn't recommend varied accents. Many of them will fuck up your conjugation.

Just checked a bit of Okinawan dialect via wikibook and I would highly recommend you stay away from that. That shit is like wayyyy to the side. You would think the difference is simply conjugation, but they're definitely completely different terms.

While a different language, the same advice applies. I studied Korean in Gyeongsangdo (south east region), which has a very strong dialect. Classes were still taught in standard (Seoul) Korean, though. Dialects are almost always based around the standard form of a language. By learning standard first, the next step to mixing in a dialect is not that bad. Personally, now I can go anywhere in mainland Korea and not have to worry about accents or dialects too much, whereas if I had learned Gyeongsangdo dialect right off the bat I would be totally lost in a solid 80% of the country.

tl;dr - learning the standard of a language will make it easier to learn other dialects, but learning dialects first will make everything else harder.

[Deadgye]

Do not use anime to supplement classes/learn JP.

It's decent as a compliment, but definitely not a supplement yeah.

Learn the language basics first. After you have the basics down anime can help you with pronunciation, although the slang might confuse the shit out of you if you can't pick on the fact that it's slang or an accent.

[Totien]

oh lord, okinawan JP? Why? I'm here now, what do you want with these people?

I've been studying Shito Ryu karate for nearly 15 years and would love to train in Shuri or Naha but I want to make sure I understand there because as I already understood it, Okinawan Japanese is radically different than Mainland Japanese.

I also want/need to study mainland Japanese because I have a career opportunity as a business analyst for the Japanese market if I can become more fluent.

[Sho]

Do not use anime to supplement classes/learn JP. Many try to do this and they end up fucking up simple stuff or having weird grammatical issues because they hear anime statements without understanding certain slang or conjugations. TV shows can be fine if they're drama shows since they tend to have "normalized" dialogue. Music tracks are tricky because they're technically less true to standard grammar/syntax than anime, but when you sift through these issues, they become more valuable learning tools because you can repeat them, they require significant memorization (unlike anime), and they're good for remembering terms (If you need to remember the word for X, you can think of the track that states X and just pretend you're listening to that track).

That said, if you're just starting to learn JP, do not bother with these. Learn the language from scratch and pick these up when you're roughly 2 yrs into the learning process because they'll confuse more than they help before then. The best way to supplement JP lessons is to use online resources (This is especially true if they're using the standard Genki book, which tends to teach terms outside of their grammatical derivation).

Sorry to burst ya bubble bro, but my colleague here at work specifically told me to "immerse myself into Japanese culture in any way you can if you want to learn, this including Japanese TV shows music and anime." He however said the VERY best way to learn is by visiting Japan for an extended period of time (3-6 months) or living there is the best way, because you would be constantly subjected to the language to live life daily. He's a native born Japanese fellow. He said alternatively it's exactly how he learned English -- by coming here to America to live and watching English TV shows all day (in conjunction with study books, materials, etc). He mastered English in about 2 years.

Not saying anyone should just solely sit around and watch anime and hope to learn the language based on that, but it's definitely a good idea to watch them so you can listen to the different dialects and slang terminology that's used today (as current anime do tend to use). Also as most already know without even knowing the language, it can be gender/class/age specific as well. Anime helps with that, even it's sometimes over glamorized.

[Yugl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa..._with_Japanese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_language#Grammar

That seems to be a few of the easy differences (Ones you can easily translate from standard to Okinawan). The tougher ones are going to be completely different statements such as these:
http://www.okinawan-shorinryu.com/okinawa/uchina.html

Sorry to burst ya bubble bro, but my colleague here at work specifically told me to "immerse myself into Japanese culture in any way you can if you want to learn, this including Japanese TV shows music and anime." He however said the VERY best way to learn is by visiting Japan for an extended period of time (3-6 months) or living there is the best way, because you would be constantly subjected to the language to live life daily. He's a native born Japanese fellow. He said alternatively it's exactly how he learned English -- by coming here to America to live and watching English TV shows all day (in conjunction with study books, materials, etc). He mastered English in about 2 years.

Not saying anyone should just solely sit around and watch anime and hope to learn the language based on that, but it's definitely a good idea to watch them so you can listen to the different dialects and slang terminology that's used today (as current anime do tend to use). Also as most already know without even knowing the language, it can be gender/class/age specific as well. Anime helps with that, even it's sometimes over glamorized.

This is missing the point. I didn't give him a "See no anime hear no anime" lecture. He requested anime for retention purposes and that's only effective if you have the basics (Not to mention, I'm not sure how you would even rank anime for that purpose). Even with the basics, you have to realize that repeating an anime is different from hosting experiences and that anime isn't the most effective tool for retention. Not to mention, if you happen to mimic the over-emphatic dialogue, you'll look like a fuckin' Japanese Richard Simmons/One of SE's annoying camera girls. None of that was akin to "Don't immerse yourself" but more inline with "Pointless when you don't have the basics and comparatively less effective than other means when you do have the basics."

[Seha]

if you happen to mimic the over-emphatic dialogue

lol, I don't always speak japanese, but when I do I moan and squeal.

[Correction]

I don't think TV is a bad way to immerse yourself as long as you have the mindset of critically analyzing the context of the conversation rather than looking for some habits to incorporate. Nobody would watch the 3 Stooges to get better at English, but it does paint a broad cultural picture of the use of the language in a certain setting. Japanese programming helped me immensely understand intonation and rhythm for effect, like how to be sarcastic or joke around and sound like it. It's great for naturalizing your use of the language past vocabulary building and sentence structure. Just don't think it's how actual human beings talk all the time or you'll turn into an asshole. Variety is key, if you can get local Japanese TV (the los angeles area has one free japanese language channel for example) it's a very valuable resource. If you're into torrenting japanese TV then you'll have access to a lot of music shows and j-dramas. Anything where there are interviews are great.

[Silenka]

Background: Studied Japanese on my own, getting much stuff wrong but at least building a vocab repertoire from age 13 to 17. At 17, took Japanese for 3 years at community college with a lax teacher in a class full of weaboos; learned almost nothing. Ended up going to Ohio State a few years later for my Japanese BA (OSU has quite a good Japanese program).
Watched anime, dramas and listened to Japanese music for all of those years, since I was 13 (I'm 28 now).

Now that you know where I'm coming from, I cannot tell you how important it is to take actual classes to learn the language properly. GOOD classes, not the crap I first took (though you're not likely to find a class quite as bad as those were). What I learned at Ohio State - which runs a difficult program taught by native speakers - not only cemented what I learned before, but also taught me new things as well as where I'd been going wrong previously. For example, it was the first time I learned that Japanese really DOES have an "accent" and that different words (such as ame [rain] and ame [candy]) can have a different intonation - and that their intonations are switched in Kansaiben. Until then I believed the common myth that Japanese has no accent or specific intonation despite listening to the language for years, also very few textbooks even go into that, much less highlight it or even mention it at all.

There are myriad things you can screw up learning on your own or with books alone. I think this conversation has been had here before previously but for someone like me at least, I much prefer to be taught by someone who knows their stuff solidly rather than rely on myself not to screw up or misunderstand what I'm learning. I've been in some really embarassing situations before with native speakers when I didn't understand some words I learned in books and mixed up meanings (for example I learned in a shitty book long ago that samishii meant cold, when it actually means lonely and suzushii is the word for cold). These kind of mixups can happen if your learning materials aren't good.

Anime, manga, dramas, variety TV, Jpop - these are great tools for reinforcing reading skills and listening comprehension. But being able to listen and hear and being able to regurgitate what you know is TOTALLY DIFFERENT! Cannot stress this enough. I'm awesome at translating Japanese to English, but you ask me to write something in Japanese from English and that is significantly harder. Speaking is all right since I did so much of it in classes (we were forced to basically since all our classes were in nothing but Japanese) but ability starts to flag when you don't have a conversation partner. The most important thing is to make sure you can both understand what is being said or written AND be able to talk/write back skillfully enough that your conversation partner doesn't just sigh and say "ah, jouzu desu ne" (ah, you're very good at Japanese - often code for "at least you're trying").

My favorite way of learning vocabulary and writing was to listen to songs and read along to the Japanese lyrics (kanji/kana lyrics, not just romaji). Copying them out in kana helped me learn to write kana faster, and reading translations of the lyrics when I was still not knowledgable enough to translate them myself taught me what the words meant, improving my vocabulary and comprehension. An added bonus from music is that it is MUCH easier to remember certain words in song than in speech alone. Can't tell you how many times I may have forgotten a word/thought I didn't know it and remembered it in song form. It's a really efficient and fun way of learning, I find. I would definitely apply this method to any language I'd learn.

As for Okinawan Japanese - it's not Japanese at all. It's not even mutually intelligible with standard Japanese and I don't think there are really that many speakers of it. Just taking from Wikipedia here, where Thank you is Arigatou in Japanese, in Okinawan it is Nifeedeebiru. So good luck with that. I would keep learning them separate from each other, ideally. They are not similar whatsoever. Actually, now that I think about it, I've seen episodes of variety shows where people who speak only standard dialect went to Okinawa and could not communicate with the older locals at all - they actually could not understand each other. Additionally, this isn't uncommon in Japan. If you go north to isolated towns in places like Aomori, you'll find people who can't mutually communicate with standard-speakers, too.

[edit] oh yeah, and anime isn't likely to teach you business language or proper manners. In fact, it won't teach you much of anything about how to actually ACT while in Japan/speaking to Japanese people. While Japanese expect foreigners not to know this stuff, I'd like to think that anyone who bothers to learn the language enough to communicate fluently would also bother with the cultural side of things. Long story short, if you start speaking like an anime character to Japanese people with pronouns like "ore" and "omae" and using direct-style speech all the time you're essentially being as rude as possible. You won't hear a lot of -masu form (the gold standard of politeness for verb endings) or keigo (polite speech) very much in anime. And learning when to use what is just as difficult and annoying as learning the words themselves. This is one thing books suck at teaching and a good class will help immensely with.

[Totien]

Thanks for the info guys. It seems I won't need to learn Okinawan afterall, cause looking at those links Yugl posted I see that the karate I know, having originated in Okinawa, doesn't use that language at all. >.>

I think the ideas I like the most so far are TV shows and music. Any recommendations?

[Yugl]

If you're just starting, use children's stuff (I don't remember the name of them personally, so you'll just need to look them up). When you get to the point where you learn honorific tenses, that's roughly a good point where you can use more enjoyable content. When you do reach that point, go with what you like since you're more willing to listen to/repeat that show or track. If you don't like what you're listening to, you may as well just study the normal way since the experience will be just as bland lol.

I honestly don't remember the shows I used other than Shinzamono and Aoi Tori, but you can pick out tracks from here since, to the right, they typically have lyrics listed (Romaji, Japanese, and English). Go through them, line by line, and you'll pick up vocabulary and conjugations. PMed a good guide as well (Very thorough for an online resource).