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  1. #41
    Masamune
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    O noooo.... what the hell at complicating things even further with anothe new term "SDT"....

    Just failed to simplify MDT+MDB and now you guys saying its actually SDT+MDT+MDB.... /stagger lol

  2. #42
    Masamune
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radec View Post
    "How do you find the places to check, Rad?"

    I try to only compare 2 things at once, so I have
    DMG12 = Floor(Floor((Floor(dINT*M)+V)*Thing1)*Thing2)
    DMG21 = Floor(Floor((Floor(dINT*M)+V)*Thing2)*Thing1)
    Then I run that over a large dINT range, usually 50-150, and look for all the spots where DMG12 isn't equal to DMG21. Adjust dINT so it lines up with one of those, and bam, instant test.

    Matlab:
    Spoiler: show
    Code:
    m = 1.5;
    v = 345;
    thing1 = 1.3;
    thing2 = 1.1;
    for i=1:100
        d(1,i) = floor(floor((floor(i*m)+v)*thing1)*thing2);
        d(2,i) = floor(floor((floor(i*m)+v)*thing2)*thing1);
        d(3,i) = d(1,i) - d(2,i);
    end

    Excel:
    Spoiler: show
    Code:
    A1 = dINT
    B1 = Floor(Floor((Floor(A1*M; 1)+V)*Thing1; 1)*Thing2; 1)
    C1 = Floor(Floor((Floor(A1*M; 1)+V)*Thing1; 1)*Thing2; 1)
    D1 = B1-C1
    
    repeat until dINT range is covered
    If i understood correctly, those methods are for determining a mob's INT from 2 observed damage values right ? If i'm correct i would rephrase that question-title : "How do you find the places to check, Rad?"

    Also for the Excel version, i'm having issues with built-in Solver, as it systematically fails when there is a single INT() in one of the formulas...
    How do you make Solver works ?
    I doubt Matlab has this problem but i don't have this software ;;

  3. #43
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    Somewhat random, but I had a thought last night about this. Impact might make it easier to sort out the effects of MAB (or it's potential /1024 value) because Summoner can cast it without MAB and it's a fairly high damage spell.

  4. #44
    TSwiftie
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    Twilight Cape is a separate term from Weather and Affinity. But I'm not sure where it lands in the equation.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masamune View Post
    If i understood correctly, those methods are for determining a mob's INT from 2 observed damage values right ? If i'm correct i would rephrase that question-title : "How do you find the places to check, Rad?"

    Also for the Excel version, i'm having issues with built-in Solver, as it systematically fails when there is a single INT() in one of the formulas...
    How do you make Solver works ?
    I doubt Matlab has this problem but i don't have this software ;;
    Well for the Excel try fixing FLOOR(A1*M ; 1) by putting FLOOR(A1*M, 1). Replace all ; with , instead.

    Excel is FLOOR(Number, Significance)
    Number = The number you want to floor
    Significance = To what place you want to floor the number (1 = Whole Number, .1 = Tenth Place, and so forth)

    Code:
    A1 = dINT
    B1 = Floor(Floor((Floor(A1*M, 1)+V)*Thing1, 1)*Thing2, 1)
    C1 = Floor(Floor((Floor(A1*M, 1)+V)*Thing1, 1)*Thing2, 1)
    D1 = B1-C1
    Try this and see if it works

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masamune View Post
    If i understood correctly, those methods are for determining a mob's INT from 2 observed damage values right ? If i'm correct i would rephrase that question-title : "How do you find the places to check, Rad?"

    Also for the Excel version, i'm having issues with built-in Solver, as it systematically fails when there is a single INT() in one of the formulas...
    How do you make Solver works ?
    I doubt Matlab has this problem but i don't have this software ;;
    I have the int before this step, I just use a dINT range to look for places to test.

    Next test once I log in is Staff Bonus vs SDT.

    I'll take a ghost, SDT = 50% to ice, and aquillo's staff for 1.15 mulitplier.

    Thing1 = 1.15
    Thing2 = 0.5

    Ghost will have (Random number here) 40 int, I'll find this with things like thunder3, aero3. 2-3 different spells, enough to get a single possible int value without killing the target.

    I run that on dINT from 1-100, and find for Blizz3:

    Spoiler: show

    A*B, B*A, difference between them
    Code:
    184   185   186   187   188   189   189   190   191   192   193   194   194   196   196   197   198   199   200   201   201   202   203   204   205   206   206   208   208   209   210   211   212   213   213   215   215   216   217   218   219   220   220   221   222   223   224   225   225   227   227   228   229   230   231   232   232   234   234   235   236   237   238   239   239   240   241   242   243   244   244   246   246   247   248   249   250   251   251   252   253   254   255   256   257   258   258   259   260   261   262   263   263   265   265   266   267   268   269   270
    184   185   186   187   187   188   189   190   190   192   193   194   194   195   196   197   197   198   200   201   201   202   203   204   204   205   206   208   208   209   210   211   211   212   213   215   215   216   217   218   218   219   220   221   221   223   224   225   225   226   227   228   228   229   231   232   232   233   234   235   235   236   238   239   239   240   241   242   242   243   244   246   246   247   248   249   249   250   251   252   252   254   255   256   256   257   258   259   259   261   262   263   263   264   265   266   266   267   269   270
    0     0     0     0     1     1     0     0     1     0     0     0     0     1     0     0     1     1     0     0     0     0     0     0     1     1     0     0     0     0     0     0     1     1     0     0     0     0     0     0     1     1     0     0     1     0     0     0     0     1     0     0     1     1     0     0     0     1     0     0     1     1     0     0     0     0     0     0     1     1     0     0     0     0     0     0     1     1     0     0     1     0     0     0     1     1     0     0     1     0     0     0     0     1     0     0     1     1     0     0


    First difference is at dINT=5, then 6. I'll be at ~90 INT base, so I'll look for something in the 50-70 range. Here, dINT = 61, 62, 69, and 70 would work (236/235, 237/236, 243/242, 244/243 damage depending on order)

  7. #47
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    Confirmed Staff before SDT

    Blizzard3, Thundersday, Aquilo's Staff. MAB +50 (36 trait + 10 merits + 2 arcane cuffs, 98+12 INT for test spell)
    Bogy is Gusgen has 33 int (Fire3 in 100INT, +50 MAB did 592)
    dINT = 77
    Staff > SDT results in 375DMG
    SDT > Staff results in 373DMG
    Tested to 375, Staff comes before SDT

    Confirmed Affinity before SDT

    New bogy, Fire3 did 597. INT is 31.
    Blizzard3, Thundersday, Varuna's Staff(DMG+5). MAB +50 (36 trait + 10 merits + 2 arcane cuffs, 98+3 INT for test spell)
    dINT=70
    Affinity > SDT results in 414DMG
    SDT > Affinity results in 412DMG
    Tested to 414, Affinity comes before SDT

  8. #48
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    Confirmed Staff before Affinity

    Pachypodium in Abyssea-Tahrongi has 61 INT (100INT +50MAB for me, Fire3 = 529, fire2=258, fire=111)
    Using Atma of the undying (20% DMG ice affinity)
    dINT = 44, MAB = 50 (98+7 int, aquilo's, arcane cuffs. Blizzard 3)
    Affinity > Staff results in 798DMG
    Staff > Affinity results in 796DMG
    Tested to 796, Staff comes before Affinity

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirschy View Post
    Twilight Cape is a separate term from Weather and Affinity. But I'm not sure where it lands in the equation.
    Turns out, no.

    Blizz3 on lvl0 mandies, 6INT. I'm in 93+7 from hailstorm, on thundersday.

    Blizz3 lands for 530 Damage, which lines up with a single 1.15 multiplier but not 1.1*1.05 or 1.05*1.1.

    I never got a 5% bonus from cape without a 10% bonus from weather as well though, so it might be possible there is a point where cape*weather = 1.15 but cape alone isn't =5%

    Related tests
    Day+weather is 1.2, not 1.21 (Thunder3+Obi+Day+Storm = 570 dINT=87 MAB+0)
    Day+Weather+Cape is 1.25 (Thunder3+Cape+Obi+Day+Storm = 595 dINT=87 MAB+0)

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masamune View Post
    O noooo.... what the hell at complicating things even further with anothe new term "SDT"....

    Just failed to simplify MDT+MDB and now you guys saying its actually SDT+MDT+MDB.... /stagger lol
    Sahagin take 50% DMG from water and they gain shell from their TP move (TP move could be labeled incorrectly though). Without the shell move: Water 50% Aero 100%; With the shell move: Water 25% Aero 50%. Assuming the shell move is 50%, that works out as 1.5*1.5.

    Possible Objections and why these objections are not valid:
    1. The shell MDT could be 25%: If that were the case, and it were additive Aero would not take 50% DMG
    2. MDT doesn't cap at 50%: It would then be 100% MDT
    3. It's actually MDB that is reducing your damage by 50%: Radec did the test so he can probably find evidence to refute that; if not, just do another test since it's easy

    Also, compilation of OOP (Order Of Operation) so far:

    SDT > DY/Weather/Twilight Cape > MAB
    SDT > MDT
    Weather > MAB
    Staff > Weather
    Affinity > Weather
    Staff > SDT
    Affinity > SDT
    Staff > Affinity

  11. #51
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    3. It's actually MDB that is reducing your damage by 50%: Radec did the test so he can probably find evidence to refute that; if not, just do another test since it's easy
    This is possible, but is an easy test to do (with LS atm, will post it later if no one else tries - dispel a sahagin whm so no shell, then start with an MDB value appropriate for the level - MDB+12 seems likely for the sahagin in yuhtunga)

    Determine int using nonwater spells, if you can't line up a value, change MDB until you can. Ideally done using 0 MAB so only term altering damage after dINT*M+V is MDB.

    Nuke w/ Water now, 3 possible cases
    1. SDT is actually MDB for a single element, so (dINT*M+V)*(1/(1+SDT+MDB)) - in this case, SDT would be 100.
    2. SDT comes before MDB, (dINT*M+V)*SDT*(1/(1+MDB)) - SDT is 0.5 here
    3. SDT comes after MDB, (dINT*M+V)*(1/(1+MDB))*SDT - SDT is 0.5 here

  12. #52
    TSwiftie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radec View Post
    Turns out, no.

    Blizz3 on lvl0 mandies, 6INT. I'm in 93+7 from hailstorm, on thundersday.

    Blizz3 lands for 530 Damage, which lines up with a single 1.15 multiplier but not 1.1*1.05 or 1.05*1.1.

    I never got a 5% bonus from cape without a 10% bonus from weather as well though, so it might be possible there is a point where cape*weather = 1.15 but cape alone isn't =5%

    Related tests
    Day+weather is 1.2, not 1.21 (Thunder3+Obi+Day+Storm = 570 dINT=87 MAB+0)
    Day+Weather+Cape is 1.25 (Thunder3+Cape+Obi+Day+Storm = 595 dINT=87 MAB+0)
    I just looked at my test, my problem was using Tier II spells(lower damage) and the wrong order of operations =/. Sorry about that, and thanks for correcting me.

  13. #53
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    MDB and MAB are in the same floor operation, but MAB/MDB is not rounded to X.XX before multiplied to existing damage.

    Did 2 checks for this:
    Does MAB after MDB?
    dINT = 64, +7MAB(Novio), +12MDB on target (lvl30ish sahagin whm)
    Blizzard3
    floor(floor((floor(64*1.5)+320)*1.07)/1.12) = 397
    floor(floor((floor(64*1.5)+320)/1.12)*1.07) = 396
    Did 397, MAB could come before MDB, but


    floor((floor(64*1.5)+320)*1.07/1.12) = 397 as well.

    dINT=61, +7MAB(Novio), +12MDB on target (lvl30ish sahagin whm)
    floor((floor(61*1.5)+320)*1.07/1.12) = 392
    Note: if you floor MAB/MDB to the X.XX place it ends up being 0.95 rather than 0.95535714... and the result is 390. "After calculating the ratio of MAB to MDB, this term is truncated to two decimal places"(Wiki, May 4th 2011) is definitely incorrect.
    floor(floor((floor(61*1.5)+320)*1.07)/1.12) = 391
    Did 392, MAB and MDB are both accounted for during the same flooring stage.

    If you treat MAB and MDB as 107 and 112 respectively in the above examples, rather than 1.07 and 1.12, all forms (MAB > MDB, MDB > MAB, MAB/MDB > nothing) come out equal to each other, and to (MAB/MAB>nothing).

    As at least most people I've worked with use MAB as a 1.XX (so they can skip the /100 calculation later, when doing by hand), leaving the calculation in the same step works best for me.

  14. #54
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    Code:
    dINT   INT*2   PlusBase   Option1P1   Option1P2   Option2P1   Option2P2   Difference
    1      2       551        430         370         475         371         1
    2      4       553        432         372         476         371         -1
    3      6       555        433         373         478         373         0
    4      8       557        435         375         480         375         0
    5      10      559        436         375         481         375         0
    6      12      561        438         377         483         377         0
    7      14      563        439         378         485         378         0
    8      16      565        441         380         487         380         0
    9      18      567        442         381         488         381         0
    10     20      569        444         382         490         382         0
    11     22      571        446         384         492         384         0
    12     24      573        447         385         493         385         0
    13     26      575        449         387         495         386         -1
    14     28      577        450         387         497         388         1
    15     30      579        452         389         499         389         0
    16     32      581        453         390         500         390         0
    17     34      583        455         392         502         392         0
    18     36      585        457         393         504         393         0
    19     38      587        458         394         506         395         1
    20     40      589        460         396         507         396         0
    21     42      591        461         397         509         397         0
    22     44      593        463         399         511         399         0
    23     46      595        464         400         512         400         0
    First three columns: Base damage at different dINT values
    Next two columns: MDT > MDB
    Next two columns: MDB > MDT
    Last column: Shows if there is a difference in damage

    Since WHM Elementals have 16 MDB and Shell IV gives (56/256) resistance, this tests the order of operations.

    MDT = Base*(200/256)
    MDB = Base*(100/116)

    Note that the (100/116) was not floored because Radec found that it is not floored in other tests. When I checked, I got 395 at dINT=19. Hence, MDB > MDT.

    Charged Whiskers
    DEX=74
    INT=97
    Elemental's INT=78
    Prior to dINT*TM, the damage is 549

    So far, SDT > Weather > MAB/MDB > MDT
    Still looking for magic burst.

    Edit: Further tests showed MAB/MDB to be the same item (Or at least both precede MDT). I added MAB to the set up and received a number at dINT=13. I then matched the MAB and added 10INT to get the exact number at dINT=23.

  15. #55
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    Magic Burst > MDT
    Target: Light Elemental at Sky
    * Known MDB 16 (I used 16MAB to counter this)
    * Shell IV
    * INT=78 (Checked using normal CW)

    Stats
    DEX=73
    INT=101
    MAB=16
    CW Damage: 753

    2-Step Skillchain: Savage > Cannon > Charged Whisker

    Locate 753 on this chart at dINT=23 and you find that Magic Burst has to precede MDT.

    Code:
    TM   Base   dINT   INT*TM   PlusBase   Bonus1   Bonus1|2   Bonus2   Bonus2|1   Difference   Bonus1   Bonus2
    2    697    1      2        699        908      709        546      709        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    2      4        701        911      711        547      711        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    3      6        703        913      713        549      713        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    4      8        705        916      715        550      715        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    5      10       707        919      717        552      717        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    6      12       709        921      719        553      718        -1           1.3      0.78125
    2    697    7      14       711        924      721        555      721        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    8      16       713        926      723        557      724        1            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    9      18       715        929      725        558      725        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    10     20       717        932      728        560      728        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    11     22       719        934      729        561      729        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    12     24       721        937      732        563      731        -1           1.3      0.78125
    2    697    13     26       723        939      733        564      733        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    14     28       725        942      735        566      735        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    15     30       727        945      738        567      737        -1           1.3      0.78125
    2    697    16     32       729        947      739        569      739        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    17     34       731        950      742        571      742        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    18     36       733        952      743        572      743        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    19     38       735        955      746        574      746        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    20     40       737        958      748        575      747        -1           1.3      0.78125
    2    697    21     42       739        960      750        577      750        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    22     44       741        963      752        578      751        -1           1.3      0.78125
    2    697    23     46       743        965      753        580      754        1            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    24     48       745        968      756        582      756        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    25     50       747        971      758        583      757        -1           1.3      0.78125
    2    697    26     52       749        973      760        585      760        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    27     54       751        976      762        586      761        -1           1.3      0.78125
    2    697    28     56       753        978      764        588      764        0            1.3      0.78125
    2    697    29     58       755        981      766        589      765        -1           1.3      0.78125
    2    697    30     60       757        984      768        591      768        0            1.3      0.78125

  16. #56
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    Magic Burst > MDB

    Same mob as in previous post.

    Stats:
    DEX=73
    INT=92
    MAB=0
    CW DMG=797

    Check chart for dINT14 and you get that when you have Magic burst before MDB

    Code:
    TM	Base	dINT	INT*TM	PlusBase	Bonus1	Bonus1|2	Bonus2	Bonus2|1	Difference	Bonus1	Bonus2
    2	684	1	2	686	891	768	591	768	0	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	2	4	688	894	770	593	770	0	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	3	6	690	897	773	594	772	-1	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	4	8	692	899	775	596	774	-1	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	5	10	694	902	777	598	777	0	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	6	12	696	904	779	600	780	1	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	7	14	698	907	781	601	781	0	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	8	16	700	910	784	603	783	-1	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	9	18	702	912	786	605	786	0	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	10	20	704	915	788	606	787	-1	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	11	22	706	917	790	608	790	0	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	12	24	708	920	793	610	793	0	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	13	26	710	923	795	612	795	0	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	14	28	712	925	797	613	796	-1	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	15	30	714	928	800	615	799	-1	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	16	32	716	930	801	617	802	1	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	17	34	718	933	804	618	803	-1	1.3	0.862068966
    2	684	18	36	720	936	806	620	806	0	1.3	0.862068966

  17. #57
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    Multiple Target Damage Reduction

    before MAB
    Firaga3
    +50MAB, 104INT, vs 2x 6INT tiny mandragora
    882 DMG, would be 883 after MAB

    Before Affinity
    Firaga3
    Agni's Staff+2(DMG+5), +50MAB, 101INT, vs 2x 6INT tiny mandragora
    1138 DMG, would be 1140 if after affinity

    Before Staff
    Aeroga3
    Auster's Staff, +50MAB, 99INT vs 2x 6INT tiny mandragora
    916 DMG, would be 918 after Staff

    Multiple Target reduction appears to be the first step after M and V calculations

  18. #58
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    Strange results, in light of -V spell multiplier being 2.2995-2.2999 - aja spells and impact actually use 2.3, when compared to 2.299_

    Also: Aeroja is not a 2.333 multiplier, but the V value is 848 (not 844 from wiki). Impact is V = 943.

    Tests:
    Aeroja - +50MAB, using V = 848
    Code:
    dINT   DMG
    118    1678
    119    1681
    120    1686
    M=2.2990-2.2999 would give 1684 for dINT=120
    M=2.333 would give 1684 1687 1690 for the 3 dINTs shown.

    Impact - +51 MAB, using V = 943
    Code:
    dINT   DMG
    129    1870
    130    1875
    131    1878
    132    1881
    M = 2.2990-2.2999 gives 1873 for dINT = 130

    Fire5 +50MAB
    V = 785
    Code:
    dINT   DMG
    95     1504
    96     1507

  19. #59
    An exploitable mess of a card game
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    13,258
    BG Level
    9
    FFXIV Character
    Gouka Mekkyaku
    FFXIV Server
    Gilgamesh
    FFXI Server
    Diabolos

    Magic Burst > Day/Weather

    Code:
    TM   Base   dINT   INT*TM   PlusBase   Bonus1   Bonus1|2   Bonus2   Bonus2|1   Difference   Bonus1   Bonus2
    2    697    1      2        699        908      998        768      998        0            1.3      1.1
    2    697    2      4        701        911      1002       771      1002       0            1.3      1.1
    2    697    3      6        703        913      1004       773      1004       0            1.3      1.1
    2    697    4      8        705        916      1007       775      1007       0            1.3      1.1
    2    697    5      10       707        919      1010       777      1010       0            1.3      1.1
    2    697    6      12       709        921      1013       779      1012       -1           1.3      1.1
    2    697    7      14       711        924      1016       782      1016       0            1.3      1.1
    Mob: Light Elemental
    * INT=78 (Seems to be the case with the one closest to the entrance to Valalalla w/e it's called)
    * MDB = 16

    Thunderday + Obi

    Stats
    DEX=73
    INT= 84
    MAB=16

    dINT is 6, so if you look at 6, it will either be 1013 or 1012. The damage came out to be 1013, so bonus 1 (Magic Burst) came before day bonus.

  20. #60
    An exploitable mess of a card game
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    13,258
    BG Level
    9
    FFXIV Character
    Gouka Mekkyaku
    FFXIV Server
    Gilgamesh
    FFXI Server
    Diabolos

    Elemental Staff (Non-Magian) > Magic Burst

    Same Mob as before
    Stats
    DEX=78
    INT=90
    MAB=16
    Obi Bonus

    Code:
    TM   Base   dINT   INT*TM   PlusBase   Bonus1   Bonus1|2   Bonus2   Bonus2|1   Difference   Bonus1   Bonus2   Bonus 3   Bonus1|3   Bonus3|1   Bonus2v1   Bonus2v3   Diff
    2    724    1      2        726        943      1037       798      1037       0            1.3      1.1      1.15      1084       1084       1192       1192       0
    2    724    2      4        728        946      1040       800      1040       0            1.3      1.1      1.15      1087       1088       1195       1196       -1
    2    724    3      6        730        949      1043       803      1043       0            1.3      1.1      1.15      1091       1090       1200       1199       1
    2    724    4      8        732        951      1046       805      1046       0            1.3      1.1      1.15      1093       1093       1202       1202       0
    2    724    5      10       734        954      1049       807      1049       0            1.3      1.1      1.15      1097       1097       1206       1206       0
    2    724    6      12       736        956      1051       809      1051       0            1.3      1.1      1.15      1099       1099       1208       1208       0
    2    724    7      14       738        959      1054       811      1054       0            1.3      1.1      1.15      1102       1102       1212       1212       0
    2    724    8      16       740        962      1058       814      1058       0            1.3      1.1      1.15      1106       1106       1216       1216       0
    2    724    9      18       742        964      1060       816      1060       0            1.3      1.1      1.15      1108       1108       1218       1218       0
    2    724    10     20       744        967      1063       818      1063       0            1.3      1.1      1.15      1112       1111       1223       1222       1
    2    724    11     22       746        969      1065       820      1066       1            1.3      1.1      1.15      1114       1114       1225       1225       0
    2    724    12     24       748        972      1069       822      1068       -1           1.3      1.1      1.15      1117       1118       1228       1229       -1
    2    724    13     26       750        975      1072       825      1072       0            1.3      1.1      1.15      1121       1120       1233       1232       1
    2    724    14     28       752        977      1074       827      1075       1            1.3      1.1      1.15      1123       1123       1235       1235       0
    dINT=12. 1229 DMG on Elemental.