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  1. #41
    D. Ring
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    Quote Originally Posted by miokomioko View Post
    Holmgang is only an oh-shit button if there just happens to be an add within 6 yalms that is also susceptible to the effect. How often is that in the grand scheme of things really?
    The don't-die effect is almost certainly going to be attached to the self-debuff (bind), so you don't need an add. The only shitty part about it is you're only free to use it when you know that you won't need to be moving/turning for the next 6 seconds.

  2. #42
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Why would you need a nearby add? Why wouldn't you just use it on whatever the thing is that you're tanking (that's trying to kill you)?

  3. #43

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    Then I guess it's a good thing WAR has more self-healing tools and (even more) increased healing received?
    That's not even the point as usual. PLDs oshit button is a fuckload safer than WARs, it doesn't make Hallowed Ground obsolete or inferior in the least bit because Hallowed Ground is still better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    The point is that now WAR has an ohshi- button, a bunch of damage mitigation added, extra enmity to help deal with the potential problem of their other chains interfering with the enmity output of spamming BB chain, and apparently the same damage output as before. So we'll see if this is enough to push WAR to 1.0 why-does-PLD-exist status.
    We'll all be smart to ignore this part of your so-called point.

  4. #44
    the whitest knight u' know
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    Why would you need a nearby add? Why wouldn't you just use it on whatever the thing is that you're tanking (that's trying to kill you)?
    It's been a while since I've actually played WAR on anything more than trash, but isn't the Holmgang effect completely fully-resisted by most (if not all) bosses? (Minor reading around came to that conclusion.)

    I suppose I'm looking at this from a specific angle where job balance matters most (boss fights) and not just on swarms of trash.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by miokomioko View Post
    It's been a while since I've actually played WAR on anything more than trash, but isn't the Holmgang effect completely fully-resisted by most (if not all) bosses? (Minor reading around came to that conclusion.)
    It also places a self-debuff (bind) on you (even if the target resists their bind), which is likely where the don't-die effect will be tied to.

  6. #46
    the whitest knight u' know
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    That's where I disagree. Regardless of what how it's currently worded in the dev comment, the whole flavor of Holmgang is a face-off/duel. I can't imagine it will end up translating to an "Okay, I'm bound and invincible over here, regardless of what you're doing." They could be fucking with how the debuff mechanic works to avoid that very thing, I don't know. I would not be surprised because it would otherwise be something way too comparable to the final Lv.50 PLD ability while on less than half the recast.

  7. #47
    Running Hell
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    I'm mostly curious about whether the Draw-In effect on it will be tied to the Bind. Or if it will be similar to the Fluid Aura knock-back effect where Knock-back can happen even if bind doesn't stick. Also what the Draw-In will work on if it is a separate effect.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    I'm mostly curious about whether the Draw-In effect on it will be tied to the Bind. Or if it will be similar to the Fluid Aura knock-back effect where Knock-back can happen even if bind doesn't stick. Also what the Draw-In will work on if it is a separate effect.
    I can't say I have a whole lot of experience with it, but what gets hit with the knock-back but resists the bind? Nothing comes to mind for me. The last time I've thought about Fluid Aura was when a healer lamenting the fact that they couldn't send Dullahans flying.

    I know the bind can be resisted if it's already built up a resistance due to someone spamming Bliz2 or something, but since the Holmgang debuff is unique, I don't think that would apply.

  9. #49
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    That's not even the point as usual. PLDs oshit button is a fuckload safer than WARs, it doesn't make Hallowed Ground obsolete or inferior in the least bit because Hallowed Ground is still better.
    Which is why HG's recast is more than twice as long.

    The point is that now WAR has an ohshi- button, a bunch of damage mitigation added, extra enmity to help deal with the potential problem of their other chains interfering with the enmity output of spamming BB chain, and apparently the same damage output as before. So we'll see if this is enough to push WAR to 1.0 why-does-PLD-exist status.
    We'll all be smart to ignore this part of your so-called point.
    Because a can't-die ability on 3min recast, increased damage reduction (likely fulltime), increased enmity across the board, and increased damage output are not germane to the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by miokomioko View Post
    That's where I disagree. Regardless of what how it's currently worded in the dev comment, the whole flavor of Holmgang is a face-off/duel. I can't imagine it will end up translating to an "Okay, I'm bound and invincible over here, regardless of what you're doing."
    Why (or even how) would a "cannot drop below 1HP" status on you be tied to a debuff on a boss?

    Seems pretty straightforward to have Holmgang give you a unique (de/)buff that indicates that you are bound and cannot drop below 1HP.

    I would not be surprised because it would otherwise be something way too comparable to the final Lv.50 PLD ability while on less than half the recast.
    That's specifically the point of this WAR boost.

  10. #50
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    (double)

  11. #51
    the whitest knight u' know
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    That's specifically the point of this WAR boost.
    Overall, yes... but it's a bit off-kilter on this specific comparison (invincibility ability).

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    I can't say I have a whole lot of experience with it, but what gets hit with the knock-back but resists the bind? Nothing comes to mind for me. The last time I've thought about Fluid Aura was when a healer lamenting the fact that they couldn't send Dullahans flying.

    I know the bind can be resisted if it's already built up a resistance due to someone spamming Bliz2 or something, but since the Holmgang debuff is unique, I don't think that would apply.
    It might have just been a resist then, but I do recall seeing Fluid Aura knock mobs away and them immediately come running back. I wanna say the spiders in Turn 4 resist bind but can be knocked-back though considering all the shit going on at that point I might have just missed the bind effect.

  13. #53
    Claustrum. Really?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    Hallowed Ground is 10s invincible on 7min recast.
    Holmgang will be 6s can't-die on 3min recast.
    As a PLD I think I'm more butthurt over Vengeance and Inner Beast.

    Vengeance is what? 30% DT for 15 seconds on a 120 second recast compared to Sentinel's 40% for 10 seconds on a 180 recast.

    How frequently can you build Wrath and spam Inner Beast? Enough to rival Rampart? I think someone said every 20 seconds or so in another thread? That would mean it works out better than Rampart (Active 30% of the time compared to 22.2%)

  14. #54
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    I fully expect PLD changes as well. Just not as many, so don't count those chickens yet.

    I expect changes for most jobs, actually.

  15. #55
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    it's 20s to build full wrath, not including single wrath boosters like berserk/vengeance, and the obvious full booster infuriate

  16. #56
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    As a PLD I think I'm more butthurt over Vengeance and Inner Beast.

    Vengeance is what? 30% DT for 15 seconds on a 120 second recast compared to Sentinel's 40% for 10 seconds on a 180 recast.

    How frequently can you build Wrath and spam Inner Beast? Enough to rival Rampart? I think someone said every 20 seconds or so in another thread? That would mean it works out better than Rampart (Active 30% of the time compared to 22.2%)
    If mobs and players have similar AA speed, then Vengeance also essentially adds Sword Oath during its duration. Not bad for a mitigation ability.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meresgi View Post
    PLD does require less skill, but WAR doesn't require a ton so it's not like there's a huge gap between the 2. Game itself doesn't require much skill to begin with lol.

    Also wtfomgloveit @ these buffs. I was expecting something lackluster, but these are very nice and will make me go back to WAR over my PLD, which I was only playing to make it easier on the healers anyways.
    That's similar to saying WHM requires zero skill compared to Scholar, which I would also disagree with. Seems silly to compare the two in such a no-wiggle room manner.

  18. #58
    Old Odin
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisada View Post
    it's 20s to build full wrath, not including single wrath boosters like berserk/vengeance, and the obvious full booster infuriate
    ^ This, so new IB is basically 6s Rampart every 20s at worst.

  19. #59
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    Quote Originally Posted by FHT View Post
    WP @ Pudding, I use it when its chasing another player after Targeting it.
    Garuda HM, you can lock Chirada/Suparma away from the fight while the party beat down the other copy

    These two fights are enough for me to call it useful, especialy because it can change a situation or save a life

    edit: also work on Boss 2 in AK if you use it to counter repel.
    So pre-endgame content. I had forgotten all about that stuff (semi-serious). Try it in coil and see if it works. >_>

  20. #60
    Running Hell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    If mobs and players have similar AA speed, then Vengeance also essentially adds Sword Oath during its duration. Not bad for a mitigation ability.
    Sort of, Vengeance still has the 25% damage reduction applied from Defiance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seravi Edalborez View Post
    ^ This, so new IB is basically 6s Rampart every 20s at worst.
    It'll basically come down to IB being better to mitigate big fuck you abilities (Death Sentence, Mountain Buster, etc.) since you can better control when it will be up and have it up more frequently, but Rampart will be superior for situation where you take constant streams of high damage (4 stack Dread, Double Dread, High Stack Caduceus, etc.) Seems like a fair trade.