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  1. #81
    Running Hell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carth View Post
    To be honest, I'm not seeing how a PLD MT will beat a WAR MT in Coil with these changes myself. I can already see a solid defense rotation for Double Dreadnaughts in T4, (IB > Thrill of Battle/Foresight > IB > Vengeance/Awareness > IB > Infuriate > IB > etc), and Storm's Path is now essentially Rage of Halone without the enmity boost. Assuming PLD gets no changes, WAR is going to be top dog for awhile.
    Thrill of Battle/Foresight is basically no mitigation at all. Foresight is about 5% DR equivalent since it's 20% defense and Thrill of Battle is just a slightly better Stoneskin on a 2min timer. Once you use up the 20% HP it gives you, it doesn't really provide any other benefit aside from Lustrate. Makes me curious why they thought to extend the duration considering it doesn't really boost healing...

    While IB technically has higher uptime (assuming 8 GCD per usage including itself) there will still be relatively large periods of time where you will be taking full damage while working on your stacks again. If we use IB as 6s/20s uptime with it's 20% DR you're looking at an average of 6% damage reduction. Rampart is about 4.4% on average but PLDs also have the benefit of Shield Blocks which helps equalize the difference. Vengeance is about 3.75% on average v. Sentinels 2.22% but then again PLD has Bulwark for almost guaranteed blocks and that's pretty much the last of WARs mitigation.

    I'd say in practice they will be about equal with WAR being better for Spike damage that is predictable (being able to always have IB up for the hit) and PLD being better for sustained Spike Damage.

  2. #82
    Claustrum. Really?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterBob View Post
    That being said, I really wish the Coil actually dropped fucking tank gear so I could use some Allagan on my WAR. 5 weeks, no items
    Yeah, kinda sucks that the Myth pieces that offer the best upgrades are the pieces that aren't transferable between jobs. Like I know all my Myth has gone on PLD only gear rather than accessories which I could have used on WAR too. Was reluctant to pick up accessories though when Valor offered larger upgrades and Allagan accessories generally beat out Hero accessories.

  3. #83
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    Well Foresight is crap, but it's better to use it than not to use it, which is why I grouped it with ToB. That said, it'd actually be better to group ToB with Convalescence because they actually share the same recast and after the update, they'll share the same timer. I'm also one of the few WARs who have Monk leveled so I could apply Mantra's +5% onto that as well.

    That aside I forgot that PLD's shield is insanely strong in this game so I'll concede that point.

  4. #84
    a p. sweet dude
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    Foresight is currently more useful than Awareness right now because of the crit immunity applying to heals, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    It'll basically come down to IB being better to mitigate big fuck you abilities (Death Sentence, Mountain Buster, etc.) since you can better control when it will be up and have it up more frequently, but Rampart will be superior for situation where you take constant streams of high damage (4 stack Dread, Double Dread, High Stack Caduceus, etc.) Seems like a fair trade.
    IB's effect has potentially more uptime than Rampart. Rampart's effective uptime is ~22%. Assuming it takes approximately 20 seconds to build to Infuriated status, using only Inner Beast (nothing else consumes Wrath stacks except Steel Cyclone right?) you can have that buff up 30% of the time. Vengeance is also much more cooldown-efficient than Sentinel or Bulwark (which doesn't work on magic damage anyway).

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    IB's effect has potentially more uptime than Rampart. Rampart's effective uptime is ~22%. Assuming it takes approximately 20 seconds to build to Infuriated status, using only Inner Beast (nothing else consumes Wrath stacks except Steel Cyclone right?) you can have that buff up 30% of the time. Vengeance is also much more cooldown-efficient than Sentinel or Bulwark.
    I know, that's how I got my average DR%. 6s/20s is 30% uptime. 30% uptime with 20% DR is 6% DR overall. Rampart 20s/90s is ~22%. ~22% for 20% is 4.4% overall. Same deal with Vengeance v. Sentinel. The thing with Vengeance and Sentinel is PLD has Bulwark it can use after all is said and done. IB > Rampart, Vengeance > Sentinel, ? > Bulwark. Bulwark is a fairy potent mitigation skill for PLDs so I don't think it's safe to write them off yet.

  6. #86
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    With a Holy Shield +1/Allagan Round Shield, Bulwark is only an effective damage decrease of ~25% on physical damage only.

    Assuming a block rate of 28% with Holy Shield+1/Allagan Round Shield (10% base block rate plus 1% for every 10 points of Block Rate on the shield), and assuming the best case scenario of Bulwark being additive and not multiplicative, we have an effective block rate of 88%. Assuming a block strength of 28% (it's reasonably difficult to get enough STR to hit this), over 1000 hits for 500 damage each, Bulwark will mitigate ~25% of the damage done (880 blocks that reduce each hit by 140, so 123,200 damage blocked out of 500,000 damage total).

    So effectively, Bulwark is 5% less mitigation (at least, because again, it only works on physical damage) with a 60 second longer cooldown than Vengeance (and hilariously, it's 15% less than Sentinel with the same cooldown), which makes it barely more effective than Rampart for twice the cooldown and 3/4 the duration.

  7. #87
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    Thrill of Battle/Foresight is basically no mitigation at all. Foresight is about 5% DR equivalent since it's 20% defense and Thrill of Battle is just a slightly better Stoneskin on a 2min timer. Once you use up the 20% HP it gives you, it doesn't really provide any other benefit aside from Lustrate. Makes me curious why they thought to extend the duration considering it doesn't really boost healing...

    While IB technically has higher uptime (assuming 8 GCD per usage including itself) there will still be relatively large periods of time where you will be taking full damage while working on your stacks again. If we use IB as 6s/20s uptime with it's 20% DR you're looking at an average of 6% damage reduction. Rampart is about 4.4% on average but PLDs also have the benefit of Shield Blocks which helps equalize the difference. Vengeance is about 3.75% on average v. Sentinels 2.22% but then again PLD has Bulwark for almost guaranteed blocks and that's pretty much the last of WARs mitigation.

    I'd say in practice they will be about equal with WAR being better for Spike damage that is predictable (being able to always have IB up for the hit) and PLD being better for sustained Spike Damage.
    1) I'm not going to ask for them to take it back because there have been a few situations where I've had it up and eaten a massive spike damage JUST as it wears off that would have kept me alive had it remained on. Case-in-point: Death Sentence + 2k attack combo. 9.7k combined damage in an instant, and, had ToB still been up, I'd have survived it.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    With a Holy Shield +1/Allagan Round Shield, Bulwark is only an effective damage decrease of ~25% on physical damage only.

    Assuming a block rate of 28% with Holy Shield+1/Allagan Round Shield (10% base block rate plus 1% for every 10 points of Block Rate on the shield), and assuming the best case scenario of Bulwark being additive and not multiplicative, we have an effective block rate of 88%. Assuming a block strength of 28% (it's reasonably difficult to get enough STR to hit this), over 1000 hits for 500 damage each, Bulwark will mitigate ~25% of the damage done (880 blocks that reduce each hit by 140, so 123,200 damage blocked out of 500,000 damage total).

    So effectively, Bulwark is 5% less mitigation (at least, because again, it only works on physical damage) with a 60 second longer cooldown than Vengeance (and hilariously, it's 15% less than Sentinel with the same cooldown), which makes it barely more effective than Rampart for twice the cooldown and half the duration.
    I get that, but you have to consider Sentinel and Bulwark together if you are comparing them to Vengeance (at least as far as physical is concerned I'll grant you that). WAR has IB and Vengeance as direct damage mitigation cooldowns. PLD has Rampart, Sentinel, and Bulwark. See where I'm getting at? Rampart + natural Shield Block is comparable overall to constant IB spam, and Sentinel + Bulwark is comparable overall to Vengeance. Of course when it comes to magic damage this all goes out the window so...yeah that could become an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    1) I'm not going to ask for them to take it back because there have been a few situations where I've had it up and eaten a massive spike damage JUST as it wears off that would have kept me alive had it remained on. Case-in-point: Death Sentence + 2k attack combo. 9.7k combined damage in an instant, and, had ToB still been up, I'd have survived it.
    Yeah, don't get me wrong a buff is a buff just curious why they figured duration was the only area it was lacking instead of like adding a healing received bonus to it or better yet make it give a Wrath stack. *shrug*

  9. #89
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    peace out pld

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    The thing with Vengeance and Sentinel is PLD has Bulwark it can use after all is said and done. IB > Rampart, Vengeance > Sentinel, ? > Bulwark.
    If you consider Foresight and Rage of Halone debuff to roughly offset, then depending on the actual value of the Storm's Path debuff, SP could be your Bulwark equalizer. (or if you prefer, Path > Halone the-same-or-more as Bulwark > Foresight)

    If the duration is at least 10s, you can choose between fulltime Storm's Path debuff or fulltime Storm's Eye debuff; if it's 20s+ you can have both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    Thrill of Battle/Foresight is basically no mitigation at all.
    I think the plan for ToB is basically to provide a buffer zone of excess HP to reduce the impact of damage spikes. I don't think the problem was ever that healers are going OOM with WAR, so more/longer increased HP along with more +healrec (from part-time+15% to fulltime+20%) should make an impact.

  11. #91
    Running Hell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    If you consider Foresight and Rage of Halone debuff to roughly offset, then depending on the actual value of the Storm's Path debuff, SP could be your Bulwark equalizer. (or if you prefer, Path > Halone the-same-or-more as Bulwark > Foresight)

    If the duration is at least 10s, you can choose between fulltime Storm's Path debuff or fulltime Storm's Eye debuff; if it's 20s+ you can have both.
    It's possible, but PLD also has access to Foresight so the difference might not be that substantial. I suppose it boils down to how much damage reduction 10% STR down provides and how potent Storm's Path will be.

  12. #92
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    If Virus is any indication, 10% STR is a hefty chunk.

  13. #93
    a p. sweet dude
    Pens win! Pens Win!!! PENS WIN!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    I get that, but you have to consider Sentinel and Bulwark together if you are comparing them to Vengeance (at least as far as physical is concerned I'll grant you that). WAR has IB and Vengeance as direct damage mitigation cooldowns. PLD has Rampart, Sentinel, and Bulwark. See where I'm getting at? Rampart + natural Shield Block is comparable overall to constant IB spam, and Sentinel + Bulwark is comparable overall to Vengeance. Of course when it comes to magic damage this all goes out the window so...yeah that could become an issue.
    I think the issue I have is that it takes two abilities from the job that's suppose to be king of damage mitigation to equalize one ability from the job that's supposed to be more risk/reward/damage.

    Also consider that shield blocks artificially reduce Paladin's Parry rate (not particularly important), and shield blocks are only ~4% more potent than a parry would be (28% to 24%), so assuming a block rate of 28% and a parry rate of 13% (I don't know the actual rate but DEX is non-existent on tank gear so it's probably almost floored), and that blocks process before parries:

    1000 hits for 100 damage each

    Shield: 7840 damage blocked
    Parry (13% of the remaining 720 hits): 2246 damage parried
    Combined: 10086 mitigated
    Total damage done before mitigation: 100,000

    Opposed to just parrying: 3120 damage parried

    So there's a ~5% advantage in PLD's favour against physical damage (shield+parry vs just Parry is ~7%, minus the difference between Rampart and Inner Beast Buff), which I'll argue end up being effectively neutral once you balance that against all the shit you can't block.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    I just want to soak up my first post-patch mountain buster. That's all I can think about doing right now. "COME AT ME, TITAN!"
    This. This all day. I was already thinking the first thing I would do on update day is queue up in a DF Titan and bring them to victory. I can't wait to *sunglasses* turn the tables. *drives off in a ferrari*

  15. #95
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    that was good

  16. #96
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    I seriously can't recall Mountain Buster being that dangerous on a WAR tank from a healer's pov and I'm talking Hoplite/AF WARs too.

  17. #97
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
    You were cold as ice.

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    I like how a lot of people are abandoning ship when it comes to PLD.

    It's not that bad guys, geez lol.

    I do believe SE went OD with the changes though; I would have just been happy with Defiance changes. Gift Horse, and all that.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocl View Post
    I seriously can't recall Mountain Buster being that dangerous on a WAR tank from a healer's pov and I'm talking Hoplite/AF WARs too.
    Tank dying on Titan is almost always a healer problem. Gear and being a PLD are just a higher safety barrier, with PLD (or a SMN/SCH) occasionally giving "lolmiss". When I tanked as WAR almost immediately after PLD I didn't really feel a difference.

  19. #99
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    I like how a lot of people are abandoning ship when it comes to PLD.

    It's not that bad guys, geez lol.

    I do believe SE went OD with the changes though; I would have just been happy with Defiance changes. Gift Horse, and all that.
    Let em abandon ship; they should have never played it in the first place. I know I don't want any flavor of the month bandwagoners in my FC, and luckily I don't have any.

  20. #100
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    Let em abandon ship; they should have never played it in the first place. I know I don't want any flavor of the month bandwagoners in my FC, and luckily I don't have any.
    read: "it's OK if one of the tank jobs is clearly inferior, as long as it's not my tank job"

    I hope you and other battered-wife WARs enjoy your time in the spotlight; everyone should have a turn. Just don't bring out your violins when the pendulum swings back, especially with this "These changes are totally measured and reasonable" act.

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