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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiarax View Post
    I regularly see <1k MBs. If my gf is solo healing on SCH they're generally ~3k ish since no SS from WHM. Either way old IB negated more than 20% every single time.
    Right, discount the SS because it has no bearing on a War vs. Pld issue. Also, regularly and generally are pretty much the same. Which is it? The highest I've gotten flipped for was 4.7, and the lowest, barring SS and obvious dodges, is 1.1 on a parry. Were you parrying your <1K MBs? I'm talking flat defense, not parry, because Plds can parry AND block. You say your normal is roughly 3k. A plds average in similar gear is far lower than 3k.

    @Foj: Ask if any coil-ready War asked for enmity buffs in any way, shape or form. SE's overreacting on that one, but it affects the standard coil War in no way, shape or form. What bads do with bad buffs is on them, not me.

  2. #122
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    I'm assuming the Overpower buff is just to reduce the amount TP used per fight. Steel Cyclone I would assume so it wouldn't be vastly overshadowed by the Overpower buff.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carth View Post
    I'm assuming the Overpower buff is just to reduce the amount TP used per fight. Steel Cyclone I would assume so it would've been vastly overshadowed by the Overpower buff.
    Allowing for more Steel Cyclone usage would have done the same thing and been more "complicated" due to hitting more buttons. The overpower buff was absolutely unneeded and I'd be surprised to see that buff go live.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by solipsism View Post
    Not really surprised that they're overbuffing the job. A lot of these changes are just unnecessary especially all the enmity buffs.
    The enmity buff is because WAR was behind on enmity generation to begin with (despite what everyone seems to think) and Overpower spam was an issue for WAR because it required using your main resource of TP for AoE threat. PLDs could spam Flash all day every day and still have TP for single target tanking where WAR had to hold back on Overpower or sub Flash themselves. Steel Cyclone should have always had enhanced enmity, it's worthless as it stands right now.

    As far as IB being a healing increase, that is only in a very sterile environment where your healers know exactly how much to expect your IB to heal you for and you can expect consistent crits on IB. If you IB and your healers are busy spamming cures on you the chances are very likely you will get overhealed wasting Wrath stacks and MP. If the healers are expecting you to cover a significant portion of your own HP but you fail to deliver a leet IB you'll be underhealed and run the risk of being floored. And because you used your Wrath stacks for a pitiful IB the emergency healing they do afterwards won't be as potent. I hear a lot of people say how amazing IB is because you can get these awesome 3k+ Burst heals on crit but that's only with Berserk and you have to pray the RNGod shines his favor on you with a crit. Sure I suppose you can only IB when Berserk + Inner Release is up but then you have to hope that you take significant damage during that time to warrant the use of your cooldowns.

    Maybe it's just me but I'll take stable healing over random strokes of epeen self-heals any day.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    Right, discount the SS because it has no bearing on a War vs. Pld issue. Also, regularly and generally are pretty much the same. Which is it? The highest I've gotten flipped for was 4.7, and the lowest, barring SS and obvious dodges, is 1.1 on a parry. Were you parrying your <1K MBs? I'm talking flat defense, not parry, because Plds can parry AND block. You say your normal is roughly 3k. A plds average in similar gear is far lower than 3k.
    Not even sure what your point here is...? Of course PLDs averages lower, but IB healing a further 1.3-3k was the great equalizer. If the SCH got a crit adlo and buster did 2k, we were suddenly healing back over 50% of it. 100% if we pop Berserk. More than a PLD could hope for. Now we IB first, wasting the 100% heal (you're getting prehealed anyway) and just giving us 20% DR to match PLD.

  6. #126
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    A 4.7K hit isn't a deal breaker in the least. I don't see why you keep bringing up Mountain Buster damage. Does PLD take less damage? Yes. WAR recovers HP faster and has a larger HP pool.

    Are they currently balanced? No. You're using the wrong example though. I couldn't tell you the right one, but it's certainly not Titan.

  7. #127

    The enmity buff is because WAR was behind on enmity generation to begin with (despite what everyone seems to think) and Overpower spam was an issue for WAR because it required using your main resource of TP for AoE threat. PLDs could spam Flash all day every day and still have TP for single target tanking where WAR had to hold back on Overpower or sub Flash themselves. Steel Cyclone should have always had enhanced enmity, it's worthless as it stands right now.
    Play with a decent warrior or something. If your warrior is generating subpar hate or not keeping AOE hate it's a skill problem and not a class problem.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiarax View Post
    Now we IB first, wasting the 100% heal (you're getting prehealed anyway) and just giving us 20% DR to match PLD.
    So before when you IB after MB it's not wasting heals even though the healers already have Cures lined up before MB even hits, but now when you IB before hand its wasting heals because healers are already healing you? Why can't you just have your healers not heal as much before MB? It's the same concept except new IB lets your healers heal less before (you still get healing from IB) and after (take 20% less damage so less healing needed after a big hit).

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fojoop View Post
    Play with a decent warrior or something. If your warrior is generating subpar hate or not keeping AOE hate it's a skill problem and not a class problem.
    WAR generates less single target hate and the math backs this up. AoE Hate WAR is superior but requires using TP which is also used for their single target hate. If you have a situation where you need to spam AoE hate and then switch to single target WAR is at a disadvantage due to this. You also aren't building wrath while spamming Overpower so allowing you to stop AoE spam for a bit and switch to single target to build wrath is an advantage.

  10. #130

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    WAR generates less single target hate and the math backs this up. AoE Hate WAR is superior but requires using TP which is also used for their single target hate. If you have a situation where you need to spam AoE hate and then switch to single target WAR is at a disadvantage due to this. You also aren't building wrath while spamming Overpower so allowing you to stop AoE spam for a bit and switch to single target to build wrath is an advantage.
    No decent or good warrior I've ever played with has had threat, TP, or AOE threat problems. They always generate monstrous levels of enmity and keep everything glued to them and never complain. They rip AOE hate off paladins without even trying in coil, even with defiance OFF. Our warrior tank in coil always rips hate off the paladin in AOE situations and ends up tanking with defiance off 95% of the time. This is with him trying his hardest to not take hate and not spamming too much overpower, too.

    As I said, it's a skill problem.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    The enmity buff is because WAR was behind on enmity generation to begin with (despite what everyone seems to think) and Overpower spam was an issue for WAR because it required using your main resource of TP for AoE threat. PLDs could spam Flash all day every day and still have TP for single target tanking where WAR had to hold back on Overpower or sub Flash themselves. Steel Cyclone should have always had enhanced enmity, it's worthless as it stands right now.

    As far as IB being a healing increase, that is only in a very sterile environment where your healers know exactly how much to expect your IB to heal you for and you can expect consistent crits on IB. If you IB and your healers are busy spamming cures on you the chances are very likely you will get overhealed wasting Wrath stacks and MP. If the healers are expecting you to cover a significant portion of your own HP but you fail to deliver a leet IB you'll be underhealed and run the risk of being floored. And because you used your Wrath stacks for a pitiful IB the emergency healing they do afterwards won't be as potent. I hear a lot of people say how amazing IB is because you can get these awesome 3k+ Burst heals on crit but that's only with Berserk and you have to pray the RNGod shines his favor on you with a crit. Sure I suppose you can only IB when Berserk + Inner Release is up but then you have to hope that you take significant damage during that time to warrant the use of your cooldowns.

    Maybe it's just me but I'll take stable healing over random strokes of epeen self-heals any day.
    Even a baseline 1.3k heal (minimum it heals in my gear) would require 6-7 Cure IIs with the 15% increased potency to match (never happening, I can go in to it more if I have to). I'm not sure where this "hold on to wrath" train of thought ever came from but it was far from the correct way to play. The only time you don't blow your stacks is when you'll overheal or when something big like MB is coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    So before when you IB after MB it's not wasting heals even though the healers already have Cures lined up before MB even hits, but now when you IB before hand its wasting heals because healers are already healing you? Why can't you just have your healers not heal as much before MB? It's the same concept except new IB lets your healers heal less before (you still get healing from IB) and after (take 20% less damage so less healing needed after a big hit).
    A 100% heal isn't even enough to mitigate the entirety of the Rock Buster before MB. Healers are still gonna be topping you off for safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    WAR generates less single target hate and the math backs this up..
    I'd love to see this math. I don't even try to maximize enmity (alternate BB and SE combos after establishing enough) and no DPS could ever hope to rip hate off me. By the end of a Titan I will have over double the total enmity of everyone other than a SCH. Medica 2 happy WHMs will have more but dump it with SoS.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiarax View Post
    I'd love to see this math. I don't even try to maximize enmity (alternate BB and SE combos after establishing enough) and no DPS could ever hope to rip hate off me. By the end of a Titan I will have over double the total enmity of everyone other than a SCH. Medica 2 happy WHMs will have more but dump it with SoS.
    Was more WAR v. PLD single target hate. This is gonna be long so bear with me.

    WAR (BB>BB>SE): This is assuming Maim is up fulltime and Storm's Eye debuff is up for 2 BB combos
    (((2 * (150 + 600 + 1400) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0333 + (83.33*1.074) * 1.0888) * 1.2 * 1.0488 * 1.0273 * .75 = 693.71 Average Enmity per GCD

    2 BB combos with Storm's Eye buff followed by the refreshing of the Storm's Eye debuff with maim still up. /.9 is the damage increase from 10% resistance down. 1.0333 is the average damage boost from Berserk for WS (20s/90s of 50% attack ~40% damage and 5s/90s of -100% damage = 8.88% damage up - 5.55% damage down for 3.33% damage up overall). 83.33 is the average auto-attack potency for all jobs revalued for 2.5 GCD speed. 1.074 is the damage increase from 2/3 uptime on Storm's Eye debuff for AAs (((1/.9)-1)*2/3 = .074) 1.0888 is the average damage increase to AAs from Berserk. 1.2 is maim buff which has 100% uptime. 1.0488 is the damage increase from Wrath Critical increase over baseline 5% crit. 1.0273 is the damage increase from using Inner Release whenever its up. .75 is damage penalty from Defiance.

    PLD (without WAR): Fight or Flight is used whenever its up and Spirits at Full Potency
    (683 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 = 718.37

    PLD (without WAR): Fight of Flight is used whenever its up and no Spirits
    (683 + 83.33 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 = 696.37

    +25 is the average damage increase from Spirit's Within per GCD(300 potency/30s = 10potency/s = 25potency/2.5s) Same for Circle (250/25s = 10/s = 25/2.5s) Chances are slim you can do every Spirit's at full potency so for the sake of argument I removed it completely in the second equation. 1.1 is average damage increase from FoF (30s/90s = .3333 * .3 = ~.1 > 10%) .8 is the damage penalty from Shield Oath.

    Now the only thing I can see making a difference is if Defiance and Shield Oath have different enmity multipliers (entirely possible) and if that's the case it would explain why WAR generates more hate than PLD even though by all means it shouldn't. If this was the case then I would have to agree that further increasing Defiance enmity multiplier is kinda silly on there part.

  13. #133
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    I can almost guarantee the enmity multiplier on Shield Oath is broken.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    I can almost guarantee the enmity multiplier on Shield Oath is broken.
    So I've heard, but I also heard they fixed it in a ninja patch at one point but never really bothered to verify as I didn't play PLD :\

  15. #135
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    With any luck, this is a trial balloon; Yoshi threw it out to get a reaction, and if it becomes clear that these changes are way over the top, he'll dial it back before 2.1 goes live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    With any luck, this is a trial balloon; Yoshi threw it out to get a reaction, and if it becomes clear that these changes are way over the top, he'll dial it back before 2.1 goes live.
    I think they'll buff paladins and then make them better than warriors, and this will continue from patch to patch just like WOW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    So I've heard, but I also heard they fixed it in a ninja patch at one point but never really bothered to verify as I didn't play PLD :\
    It became most obvious to me that something is broken when my FC did a 6 PLD Ifrit for giggles a couple weeks ago. I had Shield Oath up, everyone else was using Sword Oath, and I was continually losing hate to other PLDs when I should've always been at least 50% ahead of them (account for the 20% additional enmity you gain in Sword Oath because of the damage nerf). I will be stunned if they come out and say it's working correctly.

  18. #138
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    Whilst Shield Oath multiplier might not be correct, there definitely is some sort of bonus on it. I've seen 2 situations recently which seemed to heavily support this. A few weeks back I derped and forgot to put up Shield Oath in Turn 1, the result was that ADS adds went for mages after my initial action rather than staying on me (only time this has ever happened). Then last week my co-tank derped and forgot to put up Shield Oath for a Turn 2 run, the result was the Ballast NM and ADS itself both went for mages directly after pull (He pulled > BLM cast 1 spell > mob went for BLM). Again this has never happened on any of our runs before.

    Could be coincidence but just seems odd that both times we've had an issue with mobs going straight for mages on pop was when a PLD forgot to have Shield Oath up on the pull.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyage1970 View Post
    Was more WAR v. PLD single target hate. This is gonna be long so bear with me.

    WAR (BB>BB>SE): This is assuming Maim is up fulltime and Storm's Eye debuff is up for 2 BB combos
    (((2 * (150 + 600 + 1400) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0333 + (83.33*1.074) * 1.0888) * 1.2 * 1.0488 * 1.0273 * .75 = 693.71 Average Enmity per GCD

    2 BB combos with Storm's Eye buff followed by the refreshing of the Storm's Eye debuff with maim still up. /.9 is the damage increase from 10% resistance down. 1.0333 is the average damage boost from Berserk for WS (20s/90s of 50% attack ~40% damage and 5s/90s of -100% damage = 8.88% damage up - 5.55% damage down for 3.33% damage up overall). 83.33 is the average auto-attack potency for all jobs revalued for 2.5 GCD speed. 1.074 is the damage increase from 2/3 uptime on Storm's Eye debuff for AAs (((1/.9)-1)*2/3 = .074) 1.0888 is the average damage increase to AAs from Berserk. 1.2 is maim buff which has 100% uptime. 1.0488 is the damage increase from Wrath Critical increase over baseline 5% crit. 1.0273 is the damage increase from using Inner Release whenever its up. .75 is damage penalty from Defiance.

    PLD (without WAR): Fight or Flight is used whenever its up and Spirits at Full Potency
    (683 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 = 718.37

    PLD (without WAR): Fight of Flight is used whenever its up and no Spirits
    (683 + 83.33 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 = 696.37

    +25 is the average damage increase from Spirit's Within per GCD(300 potency/30s = 10potency/s = 25potency/2.5s) Same for Circle (250/25s = 10/s = 25/2.5s) Chances are slim you can do every Spirit's at full potency so for the sake of argument I removed it completely in the second equation. 1.1 is average damage increase from FoF (30s/90s = .3333 * .3 = ~.1 > 10%) .8 is the damage penalty from Shield Oath.

    Now the only thing I can see making a difference is if Defiance and Shield Oath have different enmity multipliers (entirely possible) and if that's the case it would explain why WAR generates more hate than PLD even though by all means it shouldn't. If this was the case then I would have to agree that further increasing Defiance enmity multiplier is kinda silly on there part.
    Not discounting your numbers but that's also ignoring Unchained, which stacked with zerk/IR can be insane bursts of enmity (900+ BBs on crit in my current gear, I know you have significantly more STR too). Numbers also get a little skewed (for both classes) because you're applying buffs to the entirety of a rotation averaged out. In reality you'll be using Berserk and IR (stacked when possible) on the 2x BB portion of your combo to give it the most weight. IB is another wrench in the numbers that's not really possible to calculate out. Timed properly it can be an increase in enmity but the opposite can hold true too if you break rotation for it.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    It became most obvious to me that something is broken when my FC did a 6 PLD Ifrit for giggles a couple weeks ago. I had Shield Oath up, everyone else was using Sword Oath, and I was continually losing hate to other PLDs when I should've always been at least 50% ahead of them (account for the 20% additional enmity you gain in Sword Oath because of the damage nerf). I will be stunned if they come out and say it's working correctly.
    Actually if you wanted to account for the 20% damage nerf in Shield Oath you'd need 25% additional enmity 1/.8 = 1.25

    Now that I think about it, a popular theory was that the enhanced enmity from the stances was just there to offset the damage reduction. If I remove the damage reduction from the equations above I get:

    WAR: 925.75
    PLD w/Spirits: 897.96
    PLD n/Spirits: 870.46

    This falls more in line with people's experiences and would explain why the 6 PLDs with Sword Oath would generate more hate than you in Shield Oath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiarax View Post
    Not discounting your numbers but that's also ignoring Unchained, which stacked with zerk/IR can be insane bursts of enmity (900+ BBs on crit in my current gear, I know you have significantly more STR too). Numbers also get a little skewed (for both classes) because you're applying buffs to the entirety of a rotation averaged out. In reality you'll be using Berserk and IR (stacked when possible) on the 2x BB portion of your combo to give it the most weight. IB is another wrench in the numbers that's not really possible to calculate out. Timed properly it can be an increase in enmity but the opposite can hold true too if you break rotation for it.
    True enough, but if we're talking endgame scenario such as coil I doubt you'll be wasting Wrath Stacks on Unchained instead of IB for survival. Same with Berserk and Internal Release, I would assume you'd save them specifically for emergency IBs when you get low on HP rather than keep them off cooldown as it's not really an issue for either tank job to hold hate if they know what they are doing and the DDs use quelling strikes as necessary.

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