CNN just now discovers that most athletes may not be getting good grades!

[Moss]

Who cares? If that's what they want to study, why shouldn't that be an option?

College is about learning for the sake of learning. It's about improving your understanding of the world, yourself, and whatever else you want to study. The degree may be useless (it's not really), but what was done to earn it is not. Even if the knowledge you gained will never earn you a single penny. It's not useless. Knowledge is power. A football degree WILL improve your life in some way. Just because there's no simple get degree -> get job doesn't mean it's useless.

They are already learning it by being a part of the athletic program. The entire point of this thread is they aren't "earning" anything because the athletic program's function is to keep them eligible by any means necessary.

[Meresgi]

Who cares? If that's what they want to study, why shouldn't that be an option?

Because most kids nowadays are told college is the answer to everything...but not how to arrive at the correct answer. A huge majority go to college because "Well I have to" and rack up shit tons of debt because "thats how it works" while getting degrees that are pointless because "why not?". I mean if the college offers a degree in something, you naturally assume that degree works in the real world...because you're fucking 19-22 and have no idea what the real world is. Hindsight and cynicism work looking at it from the outside, but the whole root of the problem is that colleges shouldn't be offering degrees in shit no one would ever take seriously...and adding a Sports degree that isn't in the line of Physical Therapy or Training is just putting more wood on the bullshit fire.

College is about learning for the sake of learning...but in Merica that learning costs a fucking shit ton and shackles you to debt for most of your adult life.

A football degree WILL improve your life in some way.

Name me one way lol. Broadcasters are usually journalists or ex-players from what I see. I guess you could coach?...at like a high school level? Even then I think Coaches need a degree in Physical Education

And you'll have a piss poor chance at employment when you can't even fill out the resume or read it without help.

[Acevalefor]

And you'll have a piss poor chance at employment when you can't even fill out the resume or read it without help.

Speaking of this, poor reading and writing skills are not limited to sports players. Anecdotal evidence here; I am currently in a 200 level writing class that requires weekly essays of 1000+ words on a given topic. We submit the essays in an online forum for the other students to review and critique. At least half of the essays are less than 500 words. The essays that do meet the word-count requirement are mostly superfluous sentences strung together with no coherent diction or observation of grammar rules. Of the 28 students in the class that submitted last week's assignment for review, only 7 of us received good reviews and good grades. That is 25%. This is a 200 level class. This means that they have taken and passed at least 3 lower level writing classes. Appalling.

The difference in this situation is that since there are no sports involved, the students that do poorly in these sophomore classes do not get pushed through. I still do not understand how they made it to the higher level classes in the first place with their poor, or worse, abysmal writing skills.

So, with that anecdote finished, I ask you; what is the difference between a student that is carried through all of his/her classes in Business Administration for the sake of sports eligibility (but still cannot read or write) and the student that takes classes specifically designed to teach him/her about the profession he or she is pursuing?

[Ksandra]

.

I was gonna post something about this last night but said "fuck it." But since you brought it up again:

Those degrees are not useless. Hell, in many respects they are more useful than say an English degree, simply because of their rarity. Think about it.

English degree'd person applies for an editing job, you can guarantee the 100+ other people applying also have an English degree. Nobody's degree is going to stand out outside of maybe where they got it from. (Harvard vs. community)

A Puppetry degree'd person applies for a puppetry job, and you can pretty much guarantee he's the only one with a degree. Now, that stands out. He has a huge edge over the other applicants.


Moving on:

You think that there are fewer job opportunities for sports players, and that simply isn't true. First, you should be looking at percentages. While there may be fewer sports slots in the professional league, there are also fewer students at the school for said sport. Take basketball. Each college usually has no more than 40 basketball players (men and women). But those same colleges will have 4000 English Majors. Not to mention, not every college has a basketball team (community/online) but most colleges are going to have a huge English department. Even though there are more English-related jobs out there, I would say that statistically speaking the chances of either of them getting the job they wanted is going to be close enough that this shouldn't even be a matter of discussion.

As well, you seem to be stuck in this idea that a sports degree is for nation leagues only. You don't get an English degree to get a job in English. You get it for English-related fields (journalism, editing, etc). I think a program for sports players that focuses on classes that will help them both if they get into a national league, and if they don't would be a lot more beneficial.

A few that stand out:

Physical Therapy classes: Not just to learn what to do, but how to do it to someone else. In general, I think it could go a long way for these players to really understand how their ACL's are getting torn and the proper steps to prevent it and take care of it. This can also lead towards them becoming a physical therapist if they don't get into the professionals.

Weight training: You think "no duh easy" but having this a part of their curriculum could help if they want to become physical trainers. Going into specifics of the difference between an NFL player and the average joe coming into a Planet Fitness and what to expect out of them kind of thing. (This can also cross over with the physical therapy, as many people with physical issues will also have a physical trainer.)

Nutrition: We've all seen it. Players who play professionally need ten million calories. And they eat like 5 pizzas a day to reach that. Then they stop playing professionally and explode. (There was an NFL player on The Biggest Loser a few years back that's a good example of that). This would go huge for their well being, and again, if they don't make it to the professionals, now they can become a nutritionist.

Education: At UConn, You can do an accelerated program in English so you can get both your degree and certification in 4 years (Instead of a degree in 4 and certificate in 1 1/2 years). You can't do that as a sports player. Why not offer that as an option? Even just having a few coaching classes can help if they end up becoming coaches themselves. Especially if they coach younger kids, as I have seen way too many coaches that have no idea how to handle kids, even if they know the sport. If they get into the professionals, it will help them also in understanding and working with the coaches they have.

Some of these may require them going back to school to finish getting certified (physical therapy?), but could help to make it they may only need to go back 1-2 years to get it. And considering if you are on a team, that probably means you are there with a scholarship so didn't pay your first 4 years anyway.

Honestly, these are the fields I see being the most common jobs for those that don't make it. Not business. These players are going to want to do something as closely-related to sports as they can. And classes such as these would help both in the professionals and outside (job prospects).

As for the business degree matter:

A business degree for a sports player, imo, is useless. Why? Because they barely go to class, they don't learn anything. And if the CNN article tells you something, a prospective employer is going to catch onto the "real" business major vs. the "fake" one the moment they read the cover letter. Business management requires a lot of letter writing, on average, these players just aren't going to cut it. Whereas, a gym looking for a physical trainer isn't going to give two shits if the guy can't write well. But when they see they were on a college team, and took training classes, they'll be all over that.

If a sports player gets a job in business with the degree, it's an almost certainty they would have gotten the job without it. And, again, I doubt many are actually trying to get into business when they don't make it.

[Meresgi]

Those degrees are not useless. Hell, in many respects they are more useful than say an English degree, simply because of their rarity. Think about it.

English degree'd person applies for an editing job, you can guarantee the 100+ other people applying also have an English degree. Nobody's degree is going to stand out outside of maybe where they got it from. (Harvard vs. community)

A Puppetry degree'd person applies for a puppetry job, and you can pretty much guarantee he's the only one with a degree. Now, that stands out. He has a huge edge over the other applicants.

I just don't get why you would get a degree in puppetry? Or a lot of preforming arts and some digital art. I feel like the money spent would be far better spent on having someone tutor you first hand instead of in a class room. Because you're also going to have to drop money on elective bullshit classes that teach nothing 99% of the time just to finish out your degree. It's all about where you are applying though so I won't say it's 100% worthless because I have no idea what a Puppetmaster would be looking for when hiring. Same thing for IT, i'm getting my Bachleors not because I want it, but because I need it incase it's a random HR person screening my resume and not someone who knows what the certs I have mean.

Also.

A business degree for a sports player, imo, is useless.

I disagree, because it's a fallback option. Your chances of making the pros from college level are slim to none so you should focus on an alternate plan. That's what most successful athletes have done, because even when you get in the pros, you only have ~5yrs of pure awesomeness before your body starts to go, your fan base dwindles, your team recruits new members who are younger and better...so the smart ones turn to business and start up clothing lines, grills, or whatever. Sure you can do it just on your own, but a degree in that shit will give you the knowledge to make it work. For every successful business these guys try, a hundred are failures and lose them millions.

[Ksandra]

I just don't get why you would get a degree in puppetry? Or a lot of preforming arts and some digital art. I feel like the money spent would be far better spent on having someone tutor you first hand instead of in a class room.

Because they want to? As I said, applying for a puppetry job with a puppetry degree is going to really really stand out (when I went there, I think only 4 colleges in the US offered it, dunno if that is still the case).

I do remember that two(?) of the puppetry majors ended up being on some kid's tv show with lions (forget the name of the show). I have no idea if those degrees helped them have the edge in getting the jobs, but I would imagine it definitely helped them at least get the interview.

[edit] If I remember right, too, the program had them taking a lot of theatre-related classes (costuming etc.) so they weren't JUST taking puppetry classes. That way they could also be learning other areas of theatre in case they couldn't get a puppetry job.

[ronin sparthos]

some kid's tv show with lions (forget the name of the show).

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...psc538d598.jpg

My work here is done.

[Ksandra]

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...psc538d598.jpg

My work here is done.

haha ya that was it!

[Moss]

You are conflating a ton of different arguments.

Those degrees are not useless.

Hence the quotation marks. Some are still less practical or versatile than others depending on your intended career field. This isn't the argument, anyway.

You think that there are fewer job opportunities for sports players, and that simply isn't true.

32 NFL teams. 53 roster spots on each team. ~1700 NFL jobs.

125 Division 1 teams. 85 players on scholarship and 20-60+ more that aren't. That's 10,625 Division 1 scholarship football players, which I would guess an average of 2500 (25%) are graduating each year and eligible for the draft or free agency. Then take into account that the best players rarely play 4 years and enter the draft early. It is an extremely exclusive and aggressive profession.

If you have data to back up your assertion that English majors have a harder time finding employment than NFL prospects I would love to see it. Even if an English major doesn't get his first choice of job, he has many other options with that degree. If you don't make the NFL, your fallbacks are the Arena league and CFL, which pay enough to support a person but not enough to live on once playing days are over. This is extremely important when the average NFL career is 3-6 years (the NFLPA and NFL argue about this number).

Physical Therapy classes, Weight training, Nutrition, Education

Um, these already exist... most fall under the umbrella of a Kinesiology major, which many athletes major in.

These players are going to want to do something as closely-related to sports as they can.

A business degree for a sports player, imo, is useless.

If a sports player gets a job in business with the degree, it's an almost certainty they would have gotten the job without it. And, again, I doubt many are actually trying to get into business when they don't make it.

Please stop making baseless assertions.

Why? Because they barely go to class, they don't learn anything. And if the CNN article tells you something, a prospective employer is going to catch onto the "real" business major vs. the "fake" one the moment they read the cover letter. Business management requires a lot of letter writing, on average, these players just aren't going to cut it.

This is the point of the thread! There is a systematic weakness in the system that pushes these athletes through sports programs from AAU to High School and to college, mostly to the benefit of the athletic program. The elite few that make it in the professional league profit greatly from this system (except for the ones that have no idea how to handle ridiculous amounts of money, but that is a separate issue). What's worse is that these guys didn't gain anything from their free four year education because it was all handed to them.

[Ksandra]

Hence the quotation marks. Some are still less practical or versatile than others depending on your intended career field. This isn't the argument, anyway.

Then stop bringing it up as a defense.

32 NFL teams. 53 roster spots on each team. ~1700 NFL jobs.

125 Division 1 teams. 85 players on scholarship and 20-60+ more that aren't. That's 10,625 Division 1 scholarship football players, which I would guess an average of 2500 (25%) are graduating each year and eligible for the draft or free agency. Then take into account that the best players rarely play 4 years and enter the draft early. It is an extremely exclusive and aggressive profession.

Again, you are saying sports players CAN ONLY be in the nfl to have something job related, and yet English majors can get any job-related. You are pigeonholing one and not the other to make your argument. It weakens your argument.

If you have data to back up your assertion that English majors have a harder time finding employment than NFL prospects I would love to see it.

except I never said that, gg. I said it was a lot closer than you think.

Even if an English major doesn't get his first choice of job, he has many other options with that degree. If you don't make the NFL, your fallbacks are the Arena league and CFL, which pay enough to support a person but not enough to live on once playing days are over. This is extremely important when the average NFL career is 3-6 years (the NFLPA and NFL argue about this number).

Again, the whole fucking point to creating a sports degree IS so that sports players can have many other options to fall back on BESIDES professional sports while still having them be closely related to sports. You see the problem between the two yet refuse to see how this could be a solution it boggles my mind.

Um, these already exist... most fall under the umbrella of a Kinesiology major, which many athletes major in.

I know they already exist Point being they can be tweaked to fit a sports degree program. Putting them into a specific program can also mean they can cater course work to them (ie. have the students on a different semester schedule so they take more classes during their particular off season, etc.)

Please stop making baseless assertions.

You first.

This is the point of the thread! There is a systematic weakness in the system that pushes these athletes through sports programs from AAU to High School and to college, mostly to the benefit of the athletic program. The elite few that make it in the professional league profit greatly from this system (except for the ones that have no idea how to handle ridiculous amounts of money, but that is a separate issue). What's worse is that these guys didn't gain anything from their free four year education because it was all handed to them.

...and that's exactly why I am saying this would be a a good start to get away from that.

I know that's the point of the thread. What? Are we supposed to bitch about these athletes not getting anything out of college, but refuse to come up with a solution?

[hey]

In an ideal world, I would agree with hey - learning for the sake of learning is the goal. However, we don't live in an ideal world. A college degree is like an admission slip to a job. That is its purpose today. If the degree in question doesn't fulfill that purpose, then it has no purpose.

For the record, I think degrees in the Arts are stupid. It's like getting a degree in advanced video game playing. Shit's a hobby, not a career/field of study.

That may be one thing a college degree can potentially do, but it is certainly not the only, or even primary purpose.

And idk where you've been, but tons of people have made a career out of advanced video game playing.

They are already learning it by being a part of the athletic program. The entire point of this thread is they aren't "earning" anything because the athletic program's function is to keep them eligible by any means necessary.

No, they are learning how to play. That's not the same thing.

Because most kids nowadays are told college is the answer to everything...but not how to arrive at the correct answer. A huge majority go to college because "Well I have to" and rack up shit tons of debt because "thats how it works" while getting degrees that are pointless because "why not?". I mean if the college offers a degree in something, you naturally assume that degree works in the real world...because you're fucking 19-22 and have no idea what the real world is. Hindsight and cynicism work looking at it from the outside, but the whole root of the problem is that colleges shouldn't be offering degrees in shit no one would ever take seriously...and adding a Sports degree that isn't in the line of Physical Therapy or Training is just putting more wood on the bullshit fire.

Then the problem is that people are being lied to.

College is about learning for the sake of learning...but in Merica that learning costs a fucking shit ton and shackles you to debt for most of your adult life.

Which is a tragedy, but that just means that someone who cannot afford to do so should not go to college to study football. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be offered for those who want to study it, and can afford to pay for it. If there's enough demand to justify the cost of offering the classes, then why not?

Name me one way lol. Broadcasters are usually journalists or ex-players from what I see. I guess you could coach?...at like a high school level? Even then I think Coaches need a degree in Physical Education

This is everything that is wrong with the world. There is more to life than working a job.

[zoobernut]

Because most people falsely believe that college is for job training. It's not. It's for education for the sake of education.

This is the reason why art degrees are not useless. And there are lots of ways for people to use an art degree to propel a career it just happens to be difficult in this day and age because creativity and artistic ability is largely undervalued in our society. Though once you get high profile enough it is an extremely valuable skill set to have.

When it comes to an art degree and art classes it is like any other class. Just because you pass the class doesn't mean you are proficient at the subject matter of the class or good enough to get a job. You can pass and get an engineering degree but that doesn't guarantee that you can get or hold an engineering job. With art it takes a lot of hard work and dedication and you can definitely improve and learn you don't have to be one of those people born with a talent for it that just kicks ass from the start (though it certainly helps)

This past semester I was the TA for one of the professors at my college for the beginner art class and it had a mix of art students and regular students looking to just get the credit and you definitely have to tailor how you interact with those students based on their end goal. The art students will want to get something different out of the class than the other students and each one needs advice and critique in a different way.

If you get a degree in art once you graduate you need to work very hard at networking and building up your portfolio. When it comes down to getting a job an art job like any other job (excluding a few specific examples) doesn't really care much about your education after they hired you they just care about the end product that you produce.

[Ksandra]

Ya it should be highlighted that while there are people who have natural art talent, there are some that also can achieve the same goal through training. And one isn't necessarily better than the other.

I have looked at my husband's old drawings before and after going to AI, I can tell you he greatly improved from it by taking those like life-form classes (or w/e they're called).

Could he have learned that outside of college? Of course. But he probably wouldn't have grown as much and as quickly. Having a professional by your side to critique and give you specific details on where you need to grow can be HUGE.

I can't speak for all art fields but zoober also mentions a good point in that I am 95% positive most of these programs help students build their portfolios towards the end of the program. I know for a fact one of my husband's projects the last semester in school was to make a demo reel using his previous work.

There is a huge benefit to have created work with the critique and assistance of professionals and then also have professionals help to put that work together in what is essentially your golden ticket when handing them to prospective employers.

[Moss]

Again, you are saying sports players CAN ONLY be in the nfl to have something job related, and yet English majors can get any job-related. You are pigeonholing one and not the other to make your argument. It weakens your argument.

No idea what you are trying to say here.

except I never said that, gg. I said it was a lot closer than you think.

If you have data to back up this assertion I would love to see it.

Again, the whole fucking point to creating a sports degree IS so that sports players can have many other options to fall back on BESIDES professional sports while still having them be closely related to sports. You see the problem between the two yet refuse to see how this could be a solution it boggles my mind. I know they already exist Point being they can be tweaked to fit a sports degree program. Putting them into a specific program can also mean they can cater course work to them (ie. have the students on a different semester schedule so they take more classes during their particular off season, etc.)

Please explain to me what is included in this mystical sports degree that isn't already included in other areas of study like Kinesiology. Schools already bend over backwards to cater to athletes and their schedules. They are placed into classes automatically that fit around their practice and workout schedules. They have tutoring available for every subject. All of your "ideas" are things that already exist.

You first.

Where?

...and that's exactly why I am saying this would be a a good start to get away from that.

I know that's the point of the thread. What? Are we supposed to bitch about these athletes not getting anything out of college, but refuse to come up with a solution?

I'm pointing out why your "sports degree" solution is terrible. Nothing you have mentioned is a novel concept. Kinesiology/fitness/physical therapy majors already exist. Colleges already cater to athletes' schedules.

[zoobernut]

If every other degree guaranteed its students a job once they graduated then maybe there could be an argument made by some against art degrees but they don't. Getting a job out of college that pertains to your major is not guaranteed and while the percentage of art students that work in their field might be lower than other majors it isn't zero. Therefore even if that is your expectation of college art degrees still have value. Not only that but just like unemployment numbers you have to look at how many people get an art degree and don't want to work full time as an artist but enjoy art enough to get a degree in it anyway. And don't forget about people who get an art degree so they can be art teachers because that is a valid career path as well from an art degree.

A lot of times a job will list a specific major or field of study in college as part of the requirements to apply but if you apply anyway even without that and prove to them you have the skills and experience necessary for the job they will hire you. A big part of going to college and getting your piece of paper is proving to the people doing the hiring that you stick with something and have the ability to follow through with it and finish it. They don't necessarily care what degree you have. Some colleges even have majorless degrees they call "general education" degrees for people who don't know what they want to do, and even then those have value.

[Moss]

No, they are learning how to play. That's not the same thing.

Feel free to elaborate rather than making vague insinuations. I'm not going to waste time guessing at your meaning.

[Ksandra]

Please explain to me what is included in this mystical sports degree that isn't already included in other areas of study like Kinesiology.

I already addressed this. The idea isn't to teach them something that doesn't exist in college already, it's to cater the program specifically to their needs.

Schools already bend over backwards to cater to athletes and their schedules. They are placed into classes automatically that fit around their practice and workout schedules.

Incorrect, they are still placed in classes that other people are taking. They aren't taking "nutrition for atheletes" they are taking nutrition 123 the same as regular students which means they are on the same schedule as regular students.

They have tutoring available for every subject.

Dunno how that is relevant, that's applicable to everyone.

All of your "ideas" are things that already exist.

That are not being done correctly.

Where?

because there are far fewer NFL (or whichever applicable professional sports league) roster spots available than other professions

You brought it up first. You don't get to demand statistics from me when you are the one who originally made the argument. Why don't you show me the statistics that sports players statistically have a harder time getting a sports-related job than English majors do getting an English-related job. This was YOUR argument you brought up, not me.

I'm pointing out why your "sports degree" solution is terrible.

You haven't at all. You have only addressed why the current situation is terrible, which I agree with.

Colleges already cater to athletes' schedules.

By making them get a bs degree they never show up to class for.


Pray tell, what is your solution?

Make them all fail out of school because they can't handle it?

[Moss]

I already addressed this. The idea isn't to teach them something that doesn't exist in college already, it's to cater the program specifically to their needs.

So an athlete's version of every class?

Incorrect, they are still placed in classes that other people are taking. They aren't taking "nutrition for atheletes" they are taking nutrition 123 the same as regular students which means they are on the same schedule as regular students.

Reading comprehension. They are placed in classes first so there aren't conflicts with their practice schedules.

Dunno how that is relevant, that's applicable to everyone.

Not at my SEC school.

You brought it up first. You don't get to demand statistics from me when you are the one who originally made the argument. Why don't you show me the statistics that sports players statistically have a harder time getting a sports-related job than English majors do getting an English-related job. This was YOUR argument you brought up, not me.

Christ, that isn't the argument. It's statistically harder to make the NFL than to get a job with an English degree.

Pray tell, what is your solution?

Surprisingly, there isn't an easy solution! As I stated previously the problem is systemic and begins long before the players get to the college level. Basically, kids need to be held accountable at every level, independent of their athletic prowess. School and sport should probably be separate and not tied to university (as they are in Europe iirc) but as long as schools continue to rake in profits and exposure that isn't likely to happen.

[zoobernut]

Moss she didn't say "make the NFL" she said get a sports related job. I am not well versed in it but I am sure there are a lot of sports related jobs that don't involve being in the NFL (or the major league of the prospective sport the student plays).

[Moss]

Did you read what she was responding to? That's not what I was arguing.

here:

because there are far fewer NFL (or whichever applicable professional sports league) roster spots available than other professions

she changed the argument to "sports-related jobs"