Button Mashing 2014: Now with more "real BRDs" and invisible tests from both contestants

[Carraway]

If you're only fighting one enemy, the latter, since you're very very likely to still have time to fire off bloodletter before the next possible reset.

That's how I operate, but I feel like there's a way to math out what's better; I've just been too lazy to do it.

[lilbubbles]

Here is my question. I started leveling bard finally and its really hurting my finger mashing that one button over and over.

Is there a way in windows to make a button turbo?

[StUfF]

Here is my question. I started leveling bard finally and its really hurting my finger mashing that one button over and over.

Is there a way in windows to make a button turbo?

http://www.autohotkey.com/

[Spider-Dan]

Comparing macro usage vs manual input to skill speed vs X/Y/Z is silly because the former is a debate about GCD efficiency (how many actions performed in a timeframe vs maximum actions allowed in a timeframe) and the latter is whether X more maximum actions allowed in a timeframe results in more damage than Y more damage per action in a timeframe.

...except that skillspeed is generally considered a throwaway, garbage stat that is not worth gearing for. If the tiny difference between optimal queuing and macro mashing is actually meaningful, why are people ignoring skillspeed instead of mathing individual pieces out?

Since you need to be spamming the macro anyway in order for it to be worthwhile, you can literally just overpower it's usefulness by spamming the actual abilities instead of a macro.

If you're spamming CDs mid-GCD and then waiting until the last second to queue, what's the advantage over spamming a macro? At some point, you have to decide to stop inputting BL/ME and start inputting your GCD, and if you can consistently time that perfectly (to maximize direct CD input spamming), then why not just input the macro with proper timing when GCD comes up?

It seems to me that most of the anti-macro arguments lean upon high focus and awareness (i.e. ability to perpetually queue GCDs, using all BL/ME resets in <1 GCD of availability, in addition to everything else that goes on in battle). If this is already the minimum standard for discussion, queuing itself seems like a minor benefit: just push the button the moment it's up.

[Obsidian]

...except that skillspeed is generally considered a throwaway, garbage stat that is not worth gearing for. If the tiny difference between optimal queuing and macro mashing is actually meaningful, why are people ignoring skillspeed instead of mathing individual pieces out?

Because one's a free increase and one's a potentially worse tradeoff.

[StUfF]

If this is already the minimum standard for discussion, queuing itself seems like a minor benefit: just push the button the moment it's up.

I measured the benefit for myself - using the macro myself results in a 2-3 second loss of GCD time per minute (more with GLx3 or additional skillspeed/selene buff). I don't know about bard stat weightings but for MONK whilst SS is the lowest weighted stat it is only slightly worse than CRIT.

The benefit is that for queuing you have a 0.5 second window to hit a button, whilst for macros you have a 0 second window. You are losing GCD time every GCD when you are using macros no matter what and from my understand of BRD mechanics you don't even want to be spamming your O-GCD cd the last with 0.5 seconds left on your GCD since your animation will push back your regular GCD skill.

[Yugl]

...except that skillspeed is generally considered a throwaway, garbage stat that is not worth gearing for. If the tiny difference between optimal queuing and macro mashing is actually meaningful, why are people ignoring skillspeed instead of mathing individual pieces out?

Except that's untrue? There are discussions that involve spell speed triumphing over other secondary stats conditionally.

[Judai]

Except that's untrue? There are discussions that involve spell speed triumphing over other secondary stats conditionally.

spell speed =/= skill speed.

Skill Speed is so far, completely worthless compared to DET/CRIT for Melee DD. In fact, having too much is a bad thing, as you will run out of TP.

[Yugl]

spell speed =/= skill speed.

Skill Speed is so far, completely worthless compared to DET/CRIT for Melee DD. In fact, having too much is a bad thing, as you will run out of TP.

You're missing the point. He claims people ignore skill speed instead of individually mathing them out. However, it is not that people have not compared this secondary stat; it is that the comparison favors DET and CRIT. This is where the "If you think this is significant, then gear for Skill Speed" argument becomes a fallacy. When you decide not to gear for Skill Speed, it is because the compared alternative, DET/CRIT, enhances DPS further than Skill Speed. However, when you choose a playstyle that reduces GCD speed, you are not doing so because the alternative enhances DPS further than the GCD gains.

As for "too much speed", that argument hardly makes sense when your actions are already instant and you control when such actions occur. You may not gain the full benefit of said speed (Though being able to control your burst is pretty nice), but at no point does this become a negative.

[StUfF]

spell speed =/= skill speed.

Skill Speed is so far, completely worthless compared to DET/CRIT for Melee DD. In fact, having too much is a bad thing, as you will run out of TP.

No?

You are the only person who I've ever seen claim that SS is totally worthless.

[Seravi Edalborez]

No?

You are the only person who I've ever seen claim that SS is totally worthless.

You must not have read many topics on any forum anywhere ever. Aside from the reason that it's a lackluster stat the main reason people claim it's worthless now is that it contributes nothing to auto-attacks which are a moderate portion of your total DPS.

[Tyrath]

If skill speed worked with auto attacks that would be a total game changer as far as stats go lol.

[Andradi]

"Worthless" is about accurate for Bards, where it's worth about half crit's weighting and comes in the equivalent amounts.

For melee DPS though it's only slightly behind crit: on a level 90 body piece or legs the difference is ~1.1str worth of stats for dragoon and less for monk. Determination is ~1.5str more than crit for equivalent amounts (24 det vs 34 crit).

[Kelenae]

This thread stopped being about macros vs non macros it seems o.o

[Spider-Dan]

When you decide not to gear for Skill Speed, it is because the compared alternative, DET/CRIT, enhances DPS further than Skill Speed. However, when you choose a playstyle that reduces GCD speed, you are not doing so because the alternative enhances DPS further than the GCD gains.

This argument is only framed this way because we continue to presume that everyone perpetually queues GCD and manually executes BL/ME in <1 GCD every time they are available.

One of the main advantages of macros is that they ensure that these actions are being performed without relying on your reaction (/distraction). The primary point I'm making (re: skillspeed) is that while people are apparently willing to lean on flawless execution as the fundamental anti-macro argument (because without that, macros win in a landslide), for whatever reason they are not also willing to extend that same condition to, say, skillspeed vs. DET. In other words:

- if you do have flawless execution, the difference between macros and non-macros is tiny (small enough that you should also be considering the impact of SKS on your build)
- if you do not have flawless execution*, macros win handily and it's not really even close

But maybe there are people out there who have perfect execution and have already mathed out skillspeed (and TP burn rate) and are quite aware of all the factors. I have no problem admitting that these people are better off without macros.

*naturally, this does not apply to anyone posting in this thread because this game is easy, BRD only pushes 4 buttons as it is, etc.

[Yugl]

they are not also willing to extend that same condition to, say, skillspeed vs. DET.

This is what I have argued against though. There are individuals extending this condition to Skill Speed comparisons because you would not have skill equivalency comparisons (And gear suggestions based on this) if they did not uphold this condition. For this reason, the "Gear for Skill Speed if you believe X" argument is a fallacy at best.

That point aside, I think the primary problem is that macro users are trying to impose their belief about what is "significant" when the question is not "how significant?" but simply "Is this the most optimal?". Even advocates of macros seem to admit that using macros is not optimal, so, instead, they rely on subjective measures such as significance or error. It is fine to justify your personal use of macros based on these criteria, but trying to answer the primary question using these measures is problematic. Significance arguments are moot if we get a mathematical comparison because players are perfectly capable of assessing significance themselves. Error, on the other hand, requires a conditional statement as you have now done.

[Spider-Dan]

I think it is a perfectly legitimate position to state that if your execution is good enough to completely invalidate the decision-oriented advantages of macros (leaving you only with the raw speed differences which are properly measured in milliseconds), your execution is necessarily also good enough to invalidate the conventional wisdom on the value of skillspeed.

[lilbubbles]

You must not have read many topics on any forum anywhere ever. Aside from the reason that it's a lackluster stat the main reason people claim it's worthless now is that it contributes nothing to auto-attacks which are a moderate portion of your total DPS.

speaking of auto attacks, would putting a /facetarget in the spam macro be beneficial?

[Seravi Edalborez]

If you already have actions set to auto-facetarget, or use Standard and hold rightclick while strafing, it's unnecessary.

[lilbubbles]

Do actions cause you to face target when you're off gcd?

Even when right clicking, going backwards causes me to face backwards.