Button Mashing 2014: Now with more "real BRDs" and invisible tests from both contestants

[gaogaostegosaurus]

Do actions cause you to face target when you're off gcd?

Even when right clicking, going backwards causes me to face backwards.

I think the face target option (in the settings) only faces you if an targeted ability is going off. Like if you hit Straight Shot or something, you'll spin to face, but during the GCD it won't turn you around.

I use(d?) something like

/ac GCDability
/ft 
/wait
/ac offGCDability
/ft

if only because it's hilarious to see myself spinning around while shooting (legacy controls). Can also target things behind you while mounted for spinning mounts.

As a side note, I may or may not have gotten tired of not being able to queue abilities and thus may or may not have written a AHK script for myself (I play with gamepads). Spoilered for huge:

Spoiler: show

Joy9::
Suspend Permit
if GetKeyState("Joy5")
{
Suspend
return
}
else if GetKeyState("Joy6")
{
Suspend
return
}
else
{
return
}

Joy10::
Suspend Permit
if GetKeyState("Joy5")
{
Suspend
return
}
else if GetKeyState("Joy6")
{
Suspend
return
}
else
{
return
}

#IfWinActive ahk_class FFXIVGAME

Joy1::
if GetKeyState("Joy5")
{
SendInput {Ctrl down}
KeyWait Joy1
Sleep 100
SendInput 1
Sleep 100
SendInput {Ctrl up}
return
}
else if GetKeyState("Joy6")
{
SendInput {Alt down}
KeyWait Joy1
Sleep 100
SendInput 1
Sleep 100
SendInput {Alt up}
return
}
else
{
return
}

Joy2::
if GetKeyState("Joy5")
{
SendInput {Ctrl down}
KeyWait Joy2
SendInput 2
Sleep 100
SendInput {Ctrl up}
return
}
else if GetKeyState("Joy6")
{
SendInput {Alt down}
KeyWait Joy2
SendInput 2
Sleep 100
SendInput {Alt up}
return
}
else
{
return
}

Joy3::
if GetKeyState("Joy5")
{
SendInput {Ctrl down}
KeyWait Joy3
SendInput 3
Sleep 100
SendInput {Ctrl up}
return
}
else if GetKeyState("Joy6")
{
SendInput {Alt down}
KeyWait Joy3
SendInput 3
Sleep 100
SendInput {Alt up}
return
}
else
{
return
}

Joy4::
if GetKeyState("Joy5")
{
SendInput {Ctrl down}
KeyWait Joy4
SendInput 4
Sleep 100
SendInput {Ctrl up}
return
}
else if GetKeyState("Joy6")
{
SendInput {Alt down}
KeyWait Joy4
SendInput 4
Sleep 100
SendInput {Alt up}
return
}
else
{
return
}

If someone wants to use/modify it, it basically just hits whatever's on CTRL/ALT-1/2/3/4 whenever I use LB/RB-A/B/X/Y with the FFXIV window active (I moved it to bumpers from triggers way back ago because the XBox for Windows controllers have idiotically strong springs for me). It also suspends the extra actions whenever you hit LB/RB-LAnalogPress/RAnalogPress so you can avoid getting animation locked out of a High Voltage silence or whatever. You just set your hotcrossbar normally with direct actions, and then make a macro that uses the "remainder" of a given macro on the appropriate hotbar.

Also, if there are any AHK experts/general code people that are looking at this and screaming in pain, feel free to fix it for me. lol

[StUfF]

You must not have read many topics on any forum anywhere ever. Aside from the reason that it's a lackluster stat the main reason people claim it's worthless now is that it contributes nothing to auto-attacks which are a moderate portion of your total DPS.

Please link me to a source where SS is weighted 0 for melee dps, because every dps calculator, every gear calculator on official forums on bluegartr and other various forums say otherwise.

[Seravi Edalborez]

"Worthless" is pretty obvious hyperbole. Sure it doesn't do nothing. But find a list where it has anywhere near the same weight as crit/det.

[StUfF]

But maybe there are people out there who have perfect execution and have already mathed out skillspeed (and TP burn rate) and are quite aware of all the factors. I have no problem admitting that these people are better off without macros.

Flawless execution for a monk is not difficult and because of how MNKs work macros do not make execution much easier.
Macros for monks do not help with decision making, the monk "rotation" is fairly fixed 1-2-3-4-5-6, either adding a GCD (ToD) or replacing a GCD (Demolish). Since Macros can't make decision based on if a DoT on a boss is, the Macro does zero for monk decision making. At any point you should know what your next skill will be unlike Bards/BLM who have to react to procs.

All Macros do for monks is really reduce the amount of hotkeys you use, but it cannot reduce it to one. You still have to decide which hotkey to press, as a monk you can easily know what the next 3 abilities you are going to use for optimal dps and the increased difficulty is mainly due to needing to position yourself correctly for the move.

From a MNK point of view, the breakpoint where execution is good enough to forgo macros is very low. Basically MNKs gain very little from macro usage and stand to benefit much more from manually queuing abilities (SS weighted heavier, has more GCDs, no reactionary abilities)

[StUfF]

"Worthless" is pretty obvious hyperbole. Sure it doesn't do nothing. But find a list where it has anywhere near the same weight as crit/det.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1856318

STR      100.00%
WDMG    832.10%
CRIT      16.30%
DET       32.90%
SPEED    15.70%

If we are potentially gaining or not losing 50+ skill speed by not using macros. It's worth comparing to the dps gain you expect from by using macros.

[Obsidian]

"Worthless" is about accurate for Bards, where it's worth about half crit's weighting and comes in the equivalent amounts.

For melee DPS though it's only slightly behind crit: on a level 90 body piece or legs the difference is ~1.1str worth of stats for dragoon and less for monk. Determination is ~1.5str more than crit for equivalent amounts (24 det vs 34 crit).

How is this being determined?

[Yugl]

I think it is a perfectly legitimate position to state that if your execution is good enough to completely invalidate the decision-oriented advantages of macros (leaving you only with the raw speed differences which are properly measured in milliseconds), your execution is necessarily also good enough to invalidate the conventional wisdom on the value of skillspeed.

Not when the conventional wisdom isn't "Too fast to matter" but rather "Too little benefit compared to DET/CRIT." I'm not sure you're getting the difference since this is the second or third time the distinction has been brought up.

[Spider-Dan]

Please link me to a source where SS is weighted 0 for melee dps, because every dps calculator, every gear calculator on official forums on bluegartr and other various forums say otherwise.

Will 0.01 (i.e. 100 SKS to 1 DEX) suffice?

If you are still strictly talking about MNK, you can probably stop. As has been stated repeatedly, MNK has no reactionary abilities and does not really even benefit from macros.

Not when the conventional wisdom isn't "Too fast to matter" but rather "Too little benefit compared to DET/CRIT." I'm not sure you're getting the difference since this is the second or third time the distinction has been brought up.

You say "too little benefit compared to DET/CRIT" but that is not a calculated comparison, which is the point.

When you say that, you're just regurgitating the standard SKS is worthless for BRD talk, and my position from the beginning has been that if you think non-macro BRDs can regularly achieve the execution necessary to realize the milliseconds of increased speed over macros, then you should not be simply dismissing SKS vs. DET as "too little benefit" without actual math to back it up.

Or, to put it another way:

The actual speed difference between spammed macro and buffered non-macro (presuming you ride GCD perfectly at all times) is small enough that if you think it's significant, you should be gearing for skillspeed.

And if you place that much importance on GCD riding, you should already be mathing out skillspeed vs. DEX/DET/CRT.

And finally, as previously stated, if you really think the compounded difference in 30 uninterrupted GCDs proves that macros are inferior, you should already be mathing out skillspeed vs. DET vs. DEX.

If the tiny difference between optimal queuing and macro mashing is actually meaningful, why are people ignoring skillspeed instead of mathing individual pieces out?

edit: To go into more detail here, it is basically consensus that BRD BiS is myth body/myth hands/myth belt/Allagan feet, yet I have never seen anyone try to calculate the impact of, say, wearing the opposite of those four and how many consecutive GCDs you would need to fire off before you got an extra round (with SKS gear), or what the damage runup to that point is. If you think one extra round after ~30 consecutive queued GCDs is a more likely result than missing ~3 seconds of a reset BL, why isn't SKS gear weighted more heavily by the community?

[Obsidian]

Which part of "50 Skill Speed is better than 0 of everything else (IE not using a macro) but not better than 50 DET/Crit/whatever," continues to elude your understanding?

The math isn't even terribly important once you realize that skill speed only effects abilities, where literally any other stat (except VIT/PIE, shut up) effects both abilities and auto-attacks. Skill speed would need to be worth significantly more (~30% per point assuming every action you use is triple the potency of your auto attack, which is an extreme exaggeration) to have the same overall DPS increase.

It's not weighted as heavily because it isn't worth as much. That's like asking why ten pounds of lead weights more than two pounds of butter.

[Spider-Dan]

Which part of "50 Skill Speed is better than 0 of everything else (IE not using a macro) but not better than 50 DET/Crit/whatever," continues to elude your understanding?

Probably the parts where it is presumed that a) GCDs and resets will never be missed/delayed and b) there will be an opportunity for enough consecutive GCDs for non-macro to actually gain a round on macro.

[StUfF]

Will 0.01 (i.e. 100 SKS to 1 DEX) suffice?

If you are still strictly talking about MNK, you can probably stop. As has been stated repeatedly, MNK has no reactionary abilities and does not really even benefit from macros.


You say "too little benefit compared to DET/CRIT" but that is not a calculated comparison, which is the point.

When you say that, you're just regurgitating the standard SKS is worthless for BRD talk, and my position from the beginning has been that if you think non-macro BRDs can regularly achieve the execution necessary to realize the milliseconds of increased speed over macros, then you should not be simply dismissing SKS vs. DET as "too little benefit" without actual math to back it up.

Or, to put it another way:






edit: To go into more detail here, it is basically consensus that BRD BiS is myth body/myth hands/myth belt/Allagan feet, yet I have never seen anyone try to calculate the impact of, say, wearing the opposite of those four and how many consecutive GCDs you would need to fire off before you got an extra round (with SKS gear), or what the damage runup to that point is. If you think one extra round after ~30 consecutive queued GCDs is a more likely result than missing ~3 seconds of a reset BL, why isn't SKS gear weighted more heavily by the community?

I'm not sure how linking your personal stat weighting for Bards has anything to do with calculated stat weightings for melee dps. I'm not sure if your trolling, not reading or not trying.

If you don't want to discuss melee dps thats fine but I was having that conversation with another user, as far as I can tell this thread of for general discussion of macro usage and not specific to bards, let me know if otherwise.

Going back to Bards.
You recognise that yes if a player had perfect execution without the need with assisted macros it would be beneficial to use manual input. Your argument seems to stem from the fact that no one can ever play that well enough that this would ever be a factor and that the potential skill speed would never offset the advantages that the macro gives a player.

That is there is a breakpoint where you plays becomes good enough that manual input becomes better than using macros. The only thing that needs to that needs to be tested is as you say, its it viable for a person to reach this standard of play on a regular basis.

On the basis of my personal testing I could potentially gain at least GCD per minute by using manual input with perfect queuing based on my button speed. For manual input to be worth it I would need to be leaving my GCD un-queued for that same amount of time (2-3 seconds) or in combination lose the equivalent dps of letting bloodletter stay off cooldown (15 seconds for potentially 150 potency equivalent to one heavy shot?). I still see this as extremely favourable for non-macro use in my own circumstance but obviously is different for each user in that 60 second period.


re: skillspeed being a worthless stat.
Skillspeed potentially gives you no advantage at all during a fight - this is correct, in rare cirumstance if you don't have enough back to back GCDs in a row you may not get an extra GCD. i.e. comparing 2.5 GCD to 2.45 GCD you won't see a guaranteed extra attack until after 50 seconds. BUT, even in short fights. certain breakpoints you will see extra attack from the lower GCD i.e. if the fight lasts 24.5 seconds to 24.99 seconds the lower GCD will have significantly higher dps output because of the extra attack the window gets bigger as it reaches the point where dps increase is guaranteed.

In the same way the extra dps output from SS is "random", CRIT is random. There's no guarantee that you will get extra attacks the same way extra crit rate will not guarantee extra crits but over the long term there is a discernable dps increase.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm not sure how linking your personal stat weighting for Bards has anything to do with calculated stat weightings for melee dps.

You claimed that no stat calculator anywhere weighs SKS at 0 and that such a claim is ridiculous. Multiple BRDs are telling you that (for BRD, at least) it has been common knowledge.

(and no, that isn't my calculator)

If you don't want to discuss melee dps thats fine but I was having that conversation with another user, as far as I can tell this thread of for general discussion of macro usage and not specific to bards, are you really telling me to not talk about Monks?

You're having a one-sided discussion with yourself. No one disputes (or even cares, really) that macros are mostly useless for MNK. There is an argument as to whether SKS is actually bad for MNK due to increased TP burn rate (and you are wisely avoiding that argument) but there are no proponents for macros on MNK.

There is a breakpoint where you plays becomes good enough that manual input becomes better - you agreed on this. The only thing I believe that needs to be tested is as you say, it's not viable for a person to reach this standard of play on a regular basis.

Find me a battle video where someone has ~30 consecutive uninterrupted GCDs without a single missed BL reset. That would be the rubber meeting the road.

In the same way the extra dps output from SS is "random", CRIT is random. There's no guarantee that you will get extra attacks the same way extra crit rate will not guarantee extra crits but over the long term there is a discernable dps increase.

That's not at all the same. SKS (and non-macro) depends on continuous, uninterrupted GCD queuing to see ANY benefit, whereas CRT is CRT and works automatically (regardless of the player's execution level).

[StUfF]

You claimed that no stat calculator anywhere weighs SKS at 0 and that such a claim is ridiculous. Multiple BRDs are telling you that (for BRD, at least) it has been common knowledge.

(and no, that isn't my calculator)

Please reread. WHat I stated was stat calulator for melee weights SKS at 0.

You're having a one-sided discussion with yourself. No one disputes (or even cares, really) that macros are mostly useless for MNK. There is an argument as to whether SKS is actually bad for MNK due to increased TP burn rate (and you are wisely avoiding that argument) but there are no proponents for macros on MNK.

I'm reply to Judai and Seravi who is claiming SKS is worthless for melee. It's in the exact same post you quote. TP is pretty mathed out, only in a couple of instances where you get to dps constantly for over 4 minutes TP becomes a concern. The only time I've run into this is during Twintania pre divebomb phase with slow dps.

Find me a battle video where someone has ~30 consecutive uninterrupted GCDs without a single missed BL reset. That would be the rubber meeting the road.

That's not at all the same. SKS (and non-macro) depends on continuous, uninterrupted GCD queuing to see ANY benefit, whereas CRT is CRT and works automatically (regardless of the player's execution level).

Yes, in the end this can't be mathed out, human error/focus is not really a constant. The best proof would be actually doing it.

[Spider-Dan]

edit: nvm

[Yugl]

You say "too little benefit compared to DET/CRIT" but that is not a calculated comparison, which is the point.

When you say that, you're just regurgitating the standard SKS is worthless for BRD talk, and my position from the beginning has been that if you think non-macro BRDs can regularly achieve the execution necessary to realize the milliseconds of increased speed over macros, then you should not be simply dismissing SKS vs. DET as "too little benefit" without actual math to back it up.

It is a calculated comparison because I'm basing that on people determining average DPS with skill speed gear compared to sets with critical hit and determination focus. It is not a generalized statement, the one you are constantly trying to perpetuate, about skill speed being worse than determination and critical hit.

What you're trying to claim I'm saying:
"STAT1 is always worse than STAT2 because it is incredibly difficult to make use of STAT1"

What I'm actually saying:
"When you calculate the DPS gains from STAT1 and compare that to the DPS gains from STAT2, STAT2 returns higher DPS"

Even blitzball's calculator has a section for skill speed because there are real gains to average DPS.

Ihm's MNK calculator accounts for skill speed as well.

There are real comparisons.

I'm pretty sure we agree on the conclusions "If you cannot play well, then use macros" and "If you can play well, then using macros is a reduction to DPS", so lets avoid rehashing that argument. All I'm concerned about is this rebuttal, "If you think macroing is bad when you play optimally, then you should choose skill speed over determination and critical hit rate."

[Spider-Dan]

I'm pretty sure we agree on the conclusions "If you cannot play well, then use macros" and "If you can play well, then using macros is a reduction to DPS", so lets avoid rehashing that argument.

As long as we make it clear that "playing well," in this context, means a minimum of a) ~30 consecutive uninterrupted GCDs without b) BL being up for more than 3 seconds at any time. If either of those is not the case, macros are the same (in the case of a) or better (in the case of b).

All I'm concerned about is this rebuttal, "If you think macroing is bad when you play optimally, then you should choose skill speed over determination and critical hit rate."

I think it is more accurately worded as, "If you think a non-macro level of play is regularly achievable, SKS gear should be calculated, not dismissed out of hand."

[Kirbyprime]

Holy shit, is this thread still alive how the hell.

[Judai]

I'm pretty sure we agree on the conclusions "If you cannot play well, then use macros" and "If you can play well, then using macros is a reduction to DPS", so lets avoid rehashing that argument. All I'm concerned about is this rebuttal, "If you think macroing is bad when you play optimally, then you should choose skill speed over determination and critical hit rate."

That's a really narrow claim and my "gear for skill speed" was obviously just a silly joke about how many people keep claiming that manual input is FAR superior in some way. You get 1 extra attack, if you are perfect, every 30 gcds(50 on monk, using my macros) or so, that isn't a massive boost.

The point I keep trying to make, that keeps getting lost in the stupid bullshit, is that some people want to make macros and don't care about that one extra hit but each time they ask about macros, some idiot spouts off that macros are complete shit and a major loss in dps. I have multiple times, in the previous arguments that manual input clearly has more potential but it's not a vast difference as some claim but a small one. If you want to manually hit everything, good for you, but don't sit here and tell people who want to use macros for w/e reason, that they are shit and idiots because omg this game is so fucking easy and they can't hit 4 buttons. It's annoying and stupid.

In the Monk thread I was merely trying to help someone who made bad macros, imo, make better macros that wouldn't misfire.

[Raineer]

Holy shit, is this thread still alive how the hell.

You don't play like me and therefore you are terrible and I need a thread to tell you why.

No terrible discussion is complete until it's a car analogy. This thread is analogous to driving a manual vs automatic transmission.

- It's mostly personal preference
- It's possible to do the manual one better if you are awesome
- It's also possible to do worse if you can't drive a stick as well as you think you can
- You're relying on the manufacturer to not make the transmissions inefficient (i.e. SE/ISP are fucking up your dps more than you know with lag etc and this doesn't matter)
- No one else should give a shit what you drive if you're getting down the road and not wiping us all but apparently it's some fucking religion to some

[Yugl]

That's a really narrow claim and my "gear for skill speed" was obviously just a silly joke about how many people keep claiming that manual input is FAR superior in some way. You get 1 extra attack, if you are perfect, every 30 gcds(50 on monk, using my macros) or so, that isn't a massive boost.

The point I keep trying to make, that keeps getting lost in the stupid bullshit, is that some people want to make macros and don't care about that one extra hit but each time they ask about macros, some idiot spouts off that macros are complete shit and a major loss in dps. I have multiple times, in the previous arguments that manual input clearly has more potential but it's not a vast difference as some claim but a small one. If you want to manually hit everything, good for you, but don't sit here and tell people who want to use macros for w/e reason, that they are shit and idiots because omg this game is so fucking easy and they can't hit 4 buttons. It's annoying and stupid.

In the Monk thread I was merely trying to help someone who made bad macros, imo, make better macros that wouldn't misfire.

You are joking but someone else is making that claim seriously (Which is why I'm responding to him). I agree with what you have said here otherwise.