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  1. #121

    Why is it being skipped over again and again that nobody is saying it is unreasonable for an individual to be expected to learn the language. What we are saying is that the government should have no place in dictating to us what that language should be.

    What is seemingly the irony of the whole situation is that those that are usually for small government (Republicans) want government intervention in making English an official required language, and those that are usually for more government intervention (Democrats) want less government intervention. The disconnect here, and what makes the situation actually line up more with party lines, is what Democrats are calling for are the rights of minorities (the right of a very small portion of an already small section of society to choose not to speak the language, and suffer the consequence of that decision), and what the Republicans are calling for is an alignment to the majority (a requirement that immigrants speak English because the majority of the citizens of the US speak English).

    What Blub is saying is that because things have become very slightly easier for non-English speakers to get by, that it is now acceptable dismiss the argument that there is significant pressure on non-English speakers to learn English without it being mandated, and to declare English as a national language - and this is patently false. We are a land of many cultures and heritages, and to force assimilation would be as anti-American as taking away your right to own a firearm. There are many subcultures of the US that have resisted assimilation and get along just fine (the Amish, for example), while accepting the consequences of their refusal to conform, and that is one of the few truly beautiful things left about the US. Why would you possibly want to take that away?

  2. #122
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    What we are saying is that the government should have no place in dictating to us what that language should be.
    Serious question: Can you submit official documents like taxes and records and such, or perhaps have a legally binding contract for say a bank loan, in a non-English language?

  3. #123

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    Serious question: Can you submit official documents like taxes and records and such, or perhaps have a legally binding contract for say a bank loan, in a non-English language?
    I know that there is a lot of extra help on the IRS website for Spanish speaking individuals, but I think the forms themselves are only provided in English. I think I remember reading somewhere that they are required to accommodate (like how school are required to accommodate for children), but that is probably complete hearsay.

    As for banks, they are not required to accommodate, but a contract for a loan in Spanish is just as legally binding as a one in English, as long as both participants agree upon it.

  4. #124
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    Personally, I think people should stop finding ways to be offended over everything ...

  5. #125
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    I wouldn't be surprised if that accommodation requires a fee lol. All state and federal documents being in English is the basis for my thoughts that the government can, is, and should be dictating to us what language should be learned. Still, nobody has to learn it, but you should also expect to run into inconveniences eventually if you don't.

    Also because I think I saw it mentioned: America, at the very least, was a melting pot, and to some effect it still is. I barely celebrate or know most of the culture that was a part of my ancestry. Of course, that's not to say that we aren't a mosaic. They're not mutually exclusive when applied realistically after all.

  6. #126
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    Old immigrants and the stubborn may resist but the children of these immigrants tend to acculturate by nature of schools. They also get the added perk of being bilingual.
    Not to mention that it's been overlooked, but it's a lot A LOT harder for an adult to learn another language than a kid. Yes, I am sure everyone here was bored in school and learned 5 languages at 35, but it is really fucking hard for a lot of people.

    Just because they can barely speak it, doesn't mean they are saying "fuck you america, I'm lazy" They are very likely trying their best because as we said time and time again THEY WANT TO COMMUNICATE JUST AS MUCH AS WE DO. And they might be struggling. Not to mention the fact that many of them didn't just come here to leech off of america's tit, but to provide better lives for said kids who will learn English well.

    We shouldn't kick people out for that.


    [edit] @ Bank

    There isn't really much that stops someone who can't speak English from having a loan or an account. When I worked there, if someone spoke a different language they had it labelled on their nametag, they were allowed to translate and have a banker fill out the forums in English.

    We also had terms and services pamphlets written in a whole bunch of languages to give out.

    If we didn't have someone who could speak their language (don't think this ever came up, but policy was in place) we could find someone for them or they could do it over the phone.

    Banks are a business, BoA doesn't have to do that, but fuck they'll do it for more money.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra View Post
    Not to mention that it's been overlooked, but it's a lot A LOT harder for an adult to learn another language than a kid. Yes, I am sure everyone here was bored in school and learned 5 languages at 35, but it is really fucking hard for a lot of people.

    Just because they can barely speak it, doesn't mean they are saying "fuck you america, I'm lazy" They are very likely trying their best because as we said time and time again THEY WANT TO COMMUNICATE JUST AS MUCH AS WE DO. And they might be struggling. Not to mention the fact that many of them didn't just come here to leech off of america's tit, but to provide better lives for said kids who will learn English well.

    We shouldn't kick people out for that.


    [edit] @ Bank

    There isn't really much that stops someone who can't speak English from having a loan or an account. When I worked there, if someone spoke a different language they had it labelled on their nametag, they were allowed to translate and have a banker fill out the forums in English.

    We also had terms and services pamphlets written in a whole bunch of languages to give out.

    If we didn't have someone who could speak their language (don't think this ever came up, but policy was in place) we could find someone for them or they could do it over the phone.

    Banks are a business, BoA doesn't have to do that, but fuck they'll do it for more money.
    This.

    It really seems more like an "immigration" thing and less like a "language" thing.

    How you could possibly get any MORE un-American than forcing your way of life on someone is beyond me.

    How you could possibly think that ANY immigrant who speaks their language doesn't know English is beyond me.

    Anecdotal: My wife, her mother, and her family all can speak English with varying degrees of mastery. They speak Russian in their house, and it's their right to do so.

    They learned English to get by and compete for jobs, and became citizens, etc. If you think that other immigrants don't do the and, I don't know what to tell you.

    Also, while you have merit in learning the language of the land you live in, you're an idiot if you think other countries are okay with you speaking anything other than their native language.

    Who else but America should act differently? Who?

  8. #128

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra View Post
    Please tell me where I attacked you. There isn't a single insult in that post. Asking questions is attacking?
    You can't really deny that your posts in response to me have blatantly aggressive/condescending overtones. Your first post set the context completely. You weren't interested in civil discourse from the very beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra
    Coke drama deserves its own thread so we can all laugh at Blubbar.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    My college disagrees. Fucking diversified education curriculum classes.
    So does the dictionary, for what it's worth. No mention of language in any of the various definitions of culture that I could find.

  9. #129
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blubbartron View Post
    You can't really deny that your posts in response to me have blatantly aggressive/condescending overtones. Your first post set the context completely. You weren't interested in civil discourse from the very beginning.
    Oh, please. You are trying to discount everything I said because of my first post? This says you don't have a leg to stand on and are trying to back out. I was trying to go back to square one with you as you have muddled yourself in stuff you claim doesn't matter but keep bringing up.

  10. #130
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    Dictionary.com lists definitions for "culture" that would include language. It's the primary medium by which almost any given culture is shared through after all.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    Serious question: Can you submit official documents like taxes and records and such, or perhaps have a legally binding contract for say a bank loan, in a non-English language?
    Many government agencies have and use Spanish forms. I'm not sure about the IRS in particular, but I have seen plenty of Spanish version HUD and EEOC forms. I don't know about other languages or other agencies. And I know many agencies try to hire people who can speak Spanish for this reason, although I've never ever met a government employee who spoke ONLY Spanish.

    I don't see any reason a Spanish document, if proven valid, wouldn't be accepted as legally binding at a US court, so long as it could be verified. I'm pretty sure most form contracts the normal people are given to sign are in English though.

  12. #132
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    I do my own taxes, but I would imagine that a lot of places like HR Block n' stuff do the same thing I said as the banks.

    To go off of that, too. My husband's parents have a family friend who does their taxes (they all speak perfect English but the woman can speak tagalog). She does it on the side for extra money while retired. All you do is get a license every year to work as a tax broker (or w/e they're called). She takes all their paperwork and fills it out/puts it all together, brings it back and they sign it.

    I can imagine a lot of people who can't speak English know someone like that to help them.

  13. #133
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    Alright, thanks for the info. So with that there's probably no, or at least very few, absolute roadblocks, just inconveniences.

  14. #134

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    Dictionary.com lists definitions for "culture" that would include language. It's the primary medium by which almost any given culture is shared through after all.
    I'd consider that to make language necessary for culture to exist (consistent with how I described it before), not necessarily a defining part of a particular culture.

    The more common definitions I found were like this:

    1cul·ture
    noun \ˈkəl-chər\

    : the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time

    : a particular society that has its own beliefs, ways of life, art, etc.

    : a way of thinking, behaving, or working that exists in a place or organization (such as a business)

  15. #135
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    Gay rights, Black rights, Womens rights, Employee rights, Children's rights, transgendered rights, gun regulations
    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra View Post
    Except you are treating it as a big problem, when we've functioned just fine for over 200 years.

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
    I like how you can use this reply for anything you want.

  16. #136

    we can't stop here, this is dictionary definitions country

  17. #137
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Sucks you have to do a trial to read the whole thing, but I think it's easy to see how this article gives a good explanation in how language is a part of culture:

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...ge-and-culture

    Anthropologists speak of the relations between language and culture. It is indeed more in accordance with reality to consider language as a part of culture. Culture is here being used, as it is throughout this article, in the anthropological sense, to refer to all aspects of human life insofar as they are determined or conditioned by membership in a society. The fact that people eat or drink is not in itself cultural; it is a biological necessity for the preservation of life. That they eat particular foods and refrain from eating other substances, though they may be perfectly edible and nourishing, and that they ...
    The food comparison I think is great. Food is a necessity just as much as language, but it's not about them eating food, it's the how, what, and why in relation to the food they eat.

    I can think of a good (but yes embarrassing for my daughter) example of this being applied to language:

    When my daughter was born I discovered something rather...bizarre (for me anyway) about the filipino culture. All the women would stand around her when getting changed laughing and talking about her "peck peck." With my husband's face getting red and shaking his head. Didn't take long to find out peck peck meant vagina. And they were comparing it to her cousin that was born three weeks prior. Arguing over who had the bigger peck peck.

    In fact, this is what my MiL wanted to use as a nickname for my daughter. She kept calling her Peck Peck. I was like "FUCK THAT NO", so we convinced them to change it to Mack Mack (daughter's name is Mackenzie).

    Now, you may say that's about culture not caring about talking about a womans' privates, but it goes further than that. She would never use the word vagina. She wouldn't consider that appropriate. Hell, I feel more comfortable saying peck peck than vagina. Somehow peck peck is not as intrusive as vagina. She speaks perfect English as I said, so this isn't about her not knowing the word or anything. Tagalog is tied in with the filipino culture so it's ok to say it because it relates to said culture. Vagina in English is not treated the same way, and so gets separated.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blubbartron View Post
    The more common definitions I found were like this:
    I'd argue the way you speak counts as a "custom of a particular society, group, place, or time," a "way of life," and/or "way of thinking, behaving."

  19. #139

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra View Post
    Sucks you have to do a trial to read the whole thing, but I think it's easy to see how this article gives a good explanation in how language is a part of culture:

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...ge-and-culture



    The food comparison I think is great. Food is a necessity just as much as language, but it's not about them eating food, it's the how, what, and why in relation to the food they eat.

    I can think of a good (but yes embarrassing for my daughter) example of this being applied to language:

    When my daughter was born I discovered something rather...bizarre (for me anyway) about the filipino culture. All the women would stand around her when getting changed laughing and talking about her "peck peck." With my husband's face getting red and shaking his head. Didn't take long to find out peck peck meant vagina. And they were comparing it to her cousin that was born three weeks prior. Arguing over who had the bigger peck peck.

    In fact, this is what my MiL wanted to use as a nickname for my daughter. She kept calling her Peck Peck. I was like "FUCK THAT NO", so we convinced them to change it to Mack Mack (daughter's name is Mackenzie).

    Now, you may say that's about culture not caring about talking about a womans' privates, but it goes further than that. She would never use the word vagina. She wouldn't consider that appropriate. Hell, I feel more comfortable saying peck peck than vagina. Somehow peck peck is not as intrusive as vagina. She speaks perfect English as I said, so this isn't about her not knowing the word or anything. Tagalog is tied in with the filipino culture so it's ok to say it because it relates to said culture. Vagina in English is not treated the same way, and so gets separated.
    Is "peck peck" literally translated into vagina, or is it more euphemistic, a la "hoohah" or "vajayjay"? The tendency to avoid certain words and instead replace them with euphemisms is actually something that crosses cultures and languages. My google fu is failing me for tagalog translation, so I can't find support one way or the other. If it's the literal translation to the medical terminology and not a euphemism/nickname, then I think that's actually good evidence (along with the anthropological perspective) to make language part of culture. But right now I'm guessing it's actually a euphemism for vagina (just because of the cutesy way the phrase sounds).

  20. #140
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    So, we're discussing arguing of semantics with blubb but no one has called semantics on language being part of culture?

    "The arts and other manifestations of intellectual achievement regarded collectively".

    How do we learn anything about culture if not through or by language?

    The anthropological definition of culture is "an evolved human capacity to classify and represent experiences with symbols; to act imaginatively or creatively" (From just about every anthropology book).

    I'm curious, have you taken any sociology courses or were you afflicted with internet autism?

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