Relic armor upgrades discussion

[Yeager]

You don't need to full time skill or "Indicolure spell duration" equipments for geo spells, they work like bard songs.

Ok then, I stand corrected.

@ Dasva - I just had a chance to test it. I'm still getting 30 hp/tic regen from Geo-Regen. So yes, I'm thinking the Regen +2 on the Luopan is similar to the "Indiclosure +12" buff. Extends the time the Luopan can be out before it's HP depletes.

***EDIT*** - Testing complete. Without Bagua Sandals, GEO spells last for 3:32. With Bagua Sandals, GEO spells last for 3:55. So, duration extended by 23 seconds.

[Funkworkz]

Bard
NQ Head: Not better than reforged AF+1 for enfeebling
HQ Head: Best enfeebling head right now.

NQ Body: Probably the best melee bard body, I do not have a set so I do not know for sure. HQ will most certainly be the best.

NQ Hands: Sidegrade vs empyrean +2 for enfeebling, Lurid mitts still beats them
HQ Hands: Slightly better than empyrean +2 for enfeebling, does not beat Lurid Mitts.

NQ Legs: Debatable if it beats NQ Reforged AF legs for enfeebling, but HQ Reforged AF is better. HQ version of these legs probably wont beat HQ AF.

NQ Feet: Best feet for pre-song fast cast set, but you don't need them to reach the 50% cap. I say its better for the damage reduction though. Rank 15 Bokwus is way better for enfeebling. Hell, even NQ bokwus is better for enfeebling.
HQ Feet: Same as NQ. Fast cast set only.

[Karbuncle]

Wait, they removed "Military Parade" from the body? I know all it did was add some +Stats while engaged but it feels kinda cheap >:I.

Its not even like the stat vomit was "Upgraded" to cover the loss, its about the same +stats as other relic bodies.

[Funkworkz]

yea they removed it and added the stats only

[Karbuncle]

Not even. The +stat bonuses are about on par with all the other bodies. Less in some cases, slightly more on others... the bonus is just flat gone, replaced by I.lv stats entirely.

I guess its not a big deal, But it was a cool bonus, sad to see it go the way of I.lv.

[Sechs]

Bard
HQ Hands: Slightly better than empyrean +2 for enfeebling, does not beat Lurid Mitts.

Not so sure about that, altough since you can't convert Macc/CHR/Skill in a 1:1 ratio it's hard to say, but Bihu+1 might be slightly better than Lurid (at least for Wind instrument songs)

NQ Legs: Debatable if it beats NQ Reforged AF legs for enfeebling, but HQ Reforged AF is better. HQ version of these legs probably wont beat HQ AF.

Uhm close to each other but it seems to me NQ Bihu is better than NQ Brioso.

I agree with you on the rest.


@Karb
Still best BRD melee body (if we exclude DW ones), and HQ is gonna be even better.
Hell, someone still used BRD body lv99 for some things, this one is best TP and WS option now, can't complain for a 109 body.
Only thing to complain is that they added an useless +Macc which clearly has no purpose on a melee body... I'd trade that for something else anytime Like, I dunno, whatever else but not ugly macc in a melee body plz, we have Brioso+1 for that >.>

[Creelo]

I would say Bihu Cuffs +1 may be sliiiiiiiightly better for wind debuffs. I wouldn't consider them really worth upgrading though unless you have gil to burn.

I'm not sure if you know, Funkworkz, but you can now reach 80% spellcasting reduction through gear.


As far as the Military Parade/Courtly Measure, they definitely did they just make them permanent stat increases in the equipment. Fulltime Str/Dex/Vit/Agi+10 on the body, Mnd/Int/Chr+10 on legs. You can see this by comparing the base stats of the 109 Brioso/Bihu pieces.

I'd wager the body will have Macc+29 at 119 like the Brioso counterpart. It's annoying to see how much copy/pasta is among the Brioso/Bihu sets.

[Talrandir]

You don't need to full time skill or "Indicolure spell duration" equipments for geo spells, they work like bard songs.

Damane posted some testing in the GEO thread showing that skill gear needs to be fulltimed.

"Indicolure spell duration" is separate, though.

[Sechs]

I'd wager the body will have Macc+29 at 119 like the Brioso counterpart. It's annoying to see how much copy/pasta is among the Brioso/Bihu sets.

Indeed... it's sad. And as I mentioned I'm annoyed by the useless macc on Bihu body.

Btw on Bihu vs Brioso Legs, even if they end up being the same, I say Bihu are still preferable because they'd work on both wind and string instruments.
Not worth upgrading if you already have Brioso+1 maybe, but if you don't then I'd go for Bihu instead.
Altough if all goes right in a few months we're gonna trash a lot of Brioso/Bihu for Empy+3 anyway...

[nivlakian]

Damane posted some testing in the GEO thread showing that skill gear needs to be fulltimed.

It most certainly does not need to be full-timed.

Naked except for Venabulum: Acc = 644
Indi-Precision cast with 791 skill then all gear removed except staff, Acc = 688

Indi-precision added 44 accuracy which is higher than the normal accuracy given at 746 skill.

Edit: Also, posts following that one linked don't seem to support the claim.

[Funkworkz]

Not so sure about that, altough since you can't convert Macc/CHR/Skill in a 1:1 ratio it's hard to say, but Bihu+1 might be slightly better than Lurid (at least for Wind instrument songs)

I would say Bihu Cuffs +1 may be sliiiiiiiightly better for wind debuffs. I wouldn't consider them really worth upgrading though unless you have gil to burn.

Yeah after a second look they are slightly better.

Uhm close to each other but it seems to me NQ Bihu is better than NQ Brioso.

If you have ghorn then NQ brioso is better, if not and you use some string instruments for debuffs, then sure bihu might be better. I didnt take that into account.

I'm not sure if you know, Funkworkz, but you can now reach 80% spellcasting reduction through gear.

Didnt know that, but even then I do not use spellcast so 50% plus a couple fast cast items are plenty of fast cast for me. I will still be switching over to them regardless.

[Toth]

Finished 5/5 GEO relic. Here's my thoughts.

Head: Relic gives higher HP than AF, but the stat vomit is inferior to the AF. Each stat -2 basically. Enhances Drain/Aspir is nice, especially with properly skilled Dark Magic skill.
Body: Geomancy Skill +10. No brainer, wear full-time
Hands: Relic hands refresh is only 1 mp/tic. AF hands are better due to Geomancy Skill +15 and Luopan DT -10%
Legs: Indiclosure +12 = 12 seconds extended duration of Indi spells but you have to wear it full-time. Stat vomit is slightly better than AF legs. AF Legs are good for Fast Cast set.
Feet: Luopan Regen +2 (I haven't quite figured this out yet) Only thing going for AF is Movement Speed +12.

I can't figure out if the Luopan Regen +2 is for extending the duration time of the Luopan, or if it's for Geo-Regen giving an extra 2 hp/tic regen on top of the 30 hp/tic regen with capped skill. I haven't tested it yet.

Head has great magic accuracy for enfeeble and nuking builds though.

[Toth]

For my fellow PUPs, do you see any benefit for using the Pitre hands or head in your TP sets? The potential for your automaton to have up to 10% critical hit bonus is nice but I hate to lose my regimen and whirlpool bonuses....

[Sechs]

For my fellow PUPs, do you see any benefit for using the Pitre hands or head in your TP sets? The potential for your automaton to have up to 10% critical hit bonus is nice but I hate to lose my regimen and whirlpool bonuses....

Reforged Pantin hands vs Regimen Gloves is such a tough choice... I don't really know what would be better. On one hand you'd get 1% more haste for your doll and some acc (which may or may not affect the automaton's damage) on the other hand you'd get the augment.
For the moment I put that on hold because of inventory+1, but I dunno about the future.

As for your question on the head and automaton-enhancing items in general, their value depends on your playstyle and what you do with your PUP, imho.

[Kensagaku]

Doing my own testing on Futhark Trousers, noted a few things of interest.

First test was RUN/THF (just happened to be on it for Colorless farming), using Stoneskin to test the Inspiration bonus and later (as you can see in the third augmented test) if the trousers had to be equipped prior to using Vallation/Valiance to boost the Inspiration effect, or if they just had to be equipped for Inspiration to work. For an idea of how I tested, I used the following setups:

Base: No equipment
Base Inspiration: No equipment, 1 rune + Vallation (5/5 Inspiration)
Aug'd Inspiration: Futhark Legs equipped AFTER Vallation was up, 1 rune + Valllation (5/5 Inspiration)
Aug'd Inspiration 2: Same as above, but equipped the legs BEFORE Vallation was up.

My results for recast were as follows:
Base: 30 Seconds

Base Inspiration: 22 Seconds
This is -8 seconds, ~-26.667 reduction, so we go to ~25% or 50% Fast Cast. Standard fare.

Aug'd Inspiration 1: 20 Seconds
This is -10 seconds, possibly due to the 6% haste. Tested it against Runeist's Trousers, also 6%, and got the same amount. At this moment, Inspiration has had no augmented boost, despite the Futhark Trousers.

Aug'd Inspiration 2: 18 Seconds
This is -12 seconds, and the only difference between this last test and the test before is that I equipped the Furthark Trousers before casting Vallation. So for the augment, it needs to be equipped prior to using Vallation.

A third test occurred to me while I was doing this, and I thought I'd try it out. Using Vallation with the Futhark Trousers, and then switching into the Runeist's Trousers, I get the same 18 second recast. This means that Futhark Trousers do not need to be equipped after the initial use of Vallation to get the Inspiriation effect. Why you wouldn't use them anyway for your magic, since the majority of it is Enhancing (barring subjob spells and Flash), I don't know, but I thought I'd test it.

I'm not good at backwards calculating Fast Cast, but essentially with Inspiration and 6% haste, we have a total of about 40% recast reduction. Seeing as normally Inspiration at 5/5 is 25% recast reduction, and assuming Haste is 6% here, wouldn't that make it roughly about a 10% bonus or a 2%/merit as Dasva suggested? Going to double check this with Klimaform.

--

Testing this again RUN/SCH with Klimaform (bigger recast, might get us a better idea of the boost).

Base Klimaform: 3 minutes (180 seconds)
Base Inspiration: 2:15 (135 seconds) - exactly a 25% reduction
Inspiration +6% Haste (Runeist Trousers): 2:05 (125 seconds) - ~30.56% reduction.
Augmented Inspiriation (no haste): 2:05 (125 seconds) - Huh? 30.56% reduction again, which would put it closer to 6%...? (maybe something like 1%/merit?) Maybe my math is bad.
Augmented Inspiration + 6% Haste: 1:57 (117 seconds) - 35% reduction.

Edit: Scratch that, I'm dumb! Looking at recast, so double that and we get 10% again. All is well in the world.

[Kensagaku]

Double post while I'm looking at the Swordplay+ on Futhark Hands, and /checkparam has revealed something interesting. I'm not sure if it's already known, but the value of Swordplay is not static. In fact, when used, accuracy and evasion slowly begin rising. It may be checkparam being wiggy but it was a consistent amount of increase that affected only accuracy and evasion.

Naked: 234 Accuracy / 457 Evasion
Futhark Hands only: 251 Accuracy / 469 Evasion

Now I left the hands on to test once I used Swordplay, because it was just going to be my initial check value, then I was going to run into the MH, and use swordplay without them to see what acc/evasion were after the fact, and compare the two numbers. What I found as I did multiple checkparams over time was this:
Swordplay used [20:46:45]
266 / 484 [20:46:51] (Base increase)
272 / 490 [20:46:56] (6 Increase) (5 second interval)
296 / 514 [20:47:22] (24 increase) (26 second interval)
311 / 529 [20:47:39] (15 increase) (17 second interval)

The last one seemed to be the cap, as it didn't go up any higher than this. So Swordplay with hands seems to be +3 Accuracy/Evasion per tick, increasing for 20 ticks or until severe damage wears off. But according to the timestamps, it has only been 53 seconds, which is... 17, almost 18 ticks.

As for without hands, I got the same 60 Accuracy/Evasion in the end, gradually increasing by 3/tick. Timestamp for use of Swordplay was [20:58:04] and capped value was reached at [20:59:03] as my earliest, which is about those 20 ticks.

I'm wondering if the Swordplay+3 means that it does the initial three ticks immediately, giving you a higher starting accuracy/evasion and letting you reach the cap sooner, giving you higher duration on capped value.

[Martel]

There was a very recent test on Swordplay here. Although said test didn't include hands.

[Kensagaku]

Oh. Well I'm a derp! I guess... I uh, backed up the testing or something. But at least I tested hands? >.>;

[nivlakian]

There was a very recent test on Swordplay here. Although said test didn't include hands.

I could be misunderstanding but doesn't Ophannus' test indicate RUN main is 6acc/eva per tic whereas Kensagaku's post suggests it's 3?

[Byrthnoth]

Actually, doing the math on Ophannus' log shows +3 Acc/Eva per tick for RUN main and for sub RUN.

It does appear that Swordplay +3 means that you get 3 initial ticks worth of potency.